short review after playing for the first time...

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Agrippa91

Veteran
Hi guys!

So I came along this mod like a month ago or so and have been playing it regularly since then. I really like the fresh touch it gives to Warband and can't wait for all the additional content that is planned!

Some things that come to mind that could need fixing are:

- I'm a vassal of the Kingdom of Swadia and got awarded Praven as I recaptured it myself after King Harlaus lost it the second time in a row to the Rhodoks. I also have a castle and both of my fiefs have training grounds. Still I do not get any veterans though I'm sure I read somewhere that you should get some regularly. Same after a town I successfully besieged. Or was that just a planned feature (can't exactl remember)?
Still, the only way I get veterans are from tournaments and converting enemy Arbalesters and other veteran troops.
I know it's not intended that you release veteran troops and to get veterans, but otherwise all you would get was a weird mixture of elite troops from all over the world. So perhaps the veterans could just appear at your fief? They want to join you anyways, so why not make it easier?
Also Veteran Vaegiran Longbowmen were the only units so far I was not able to disband, at least not in Swadian cities.

- Nord Huscarl don't upgrade (Veteran, Elite), other troops like Vaegir Marksmen, Praven Knights, Suno Master Archers etc. do.

- The unique troops are really cool, but I would really appreciate if the AI would use them more often! Could it be scripted that the lord of a town that has these special troops also always has some of these troops in his army? And that perhaps the king has a variety of his kingdom's elite troops in his army anyways? Would make fight against kings also more awesome.
As it is now it feels kinda like cheating when I'm the only one using Praven Knights and Suno Master Archers, I've already limited myself to 100 Master Archers and 100 Knights as a standing army, I'll use the rest as Serjeants and stuff to be a bit more realistic.

- Since the emblems are not explained (also not in the wiki) it feels kinda weird to use them, like having bought content for an online game or sth. like that. Can you add something lorewise to that, Windyplain?
Like saying they're a symbol of guilds that donated them to the player for his outstanding roles?

- The ability "storyteller" doesn't seem to work for me. I should get +2 renown for every battle for each rank of persuasion (max 15)? In small battles I didn't even get the minimum amount I was supposed to, also in larger battles it seemed to me like this skill had no influence at all!

- encumbrance: A cool idea and i really like it, but somehow only the player and his companions suffer from it which makes it a bit meh.
Oh, and could it be made that some stuff that primarily gets used by infantry and foot archers (the marksman clothes, banded armor) does get a weight bonus since it's would be designed really flexible compared to "real" armor?

- somehow I don't seem to suffer damage when I fall off my horse though a message appears and I have it turned on. Is that because I it because I have such high armor and the game calculates it not as fall damage but as regular damage?

- It's really unclear who of the companions has read which book so far. Cozur in A Clash of Kings has done it quite nice by adding additional text not only for your reading progress, but also for you companions. Or was it part of the Floris Mod?

- The tournament rewards are really nice, but sometimes the prices just sell far too good. I've stopped getting lordly black armor and stuff that sold for like 30-40k, but I still get reinforced black armor that sells for over 20 (I'm a trader with 7+2 skill but still...).
The worst is that I cannot sell that stuff anywhere because there're just no merchants that have that much money!
On the other hand that's also why I couldn't bring up enough money for really expensive commissions like a lordly armor or a masterwork sword. I now just did it by checking how much I would get theoretically, then throwing the armor away and giving me the money via cheat, but it still feels weird having so high rewards.

- Some equipment (e.g. Sword of the Stag) never appear with any merchants. I really like the sword since it has a bonus against shields AND can crush through blocks, so no opponent can stand against it when you hammer your strikes at him. On the other side it has lower stats as other swords and is unbalanced which ironically prevents it from being imbalanced compared to the other weapons.
Well, at least you can commission it (really awesome feature! 70 more days until I get my Masterwork Sword of the Stag!!!!).

- Abilities: I really like those! They add a whole new lair to the game without seeming inbalanced! With Wholesaler trading becomes actually viable, so I spent much time just traveling from town to town, trading and joining tourneys where I could. A cool early-game alternative to doing bandit quests and stuff all the time.
I must say that I didn't like that the companions had prefit abilities. Basheshtur, even though he was only fighting with a long axe and throwing axes was suddenly getting the master archer skill!
Would it be possible to make like two generally good skills for companions (quartermaster, blademaster, commanding presence, stuff like that) and have an additional skill based on what they'll have used more?
Well, that's propably too much effort, it was just that I was training my companions to become my huscarl kingsguard, but later I realized while Francis and Borcha were really good people like Basheshtur just never reached the same level.

- The higher requirements for armor and such are really cool btw, really adds a lot more to character design and stuff. You no longer just can buy the most expensive armor and wear it, you actually have to make cuts so you're either not such a good leader (leadership, surgery etc.) or you have to rely on your mount because you don't move too fast (due to the awesome encumbrance mechanic) by foot.

Anyways, this is an awesome mod and I'm super happy I took a look at it (had an interesting logo on ModDB :wink:)
So far I've played two playthroughs:

- The first was with a Northener.
Me as well as my companions were equipped with two large bags of heavy throwing axes, a reinforced huscarl's round shield to protect while throwing the axes and while standing in range of archers as well as a heavy great long axe. To round up the Huscarls we had Banded armors and Warlords' helmets.
My strength and agility both were at 18 because I wanted to be as agile as possible, but even though I had "Endurance" (Longer duration, slower sprinting with faster cooldown, less encumbrance based on strength). The other points I put pretty equally in intelligence and charisma.
I still had only 4 out of 6 athletics (3 of six without the skill the other anti-encumbrance-skills also only granted me athletics +1).
The haste ability actually was by far the best and really helped defeating big chunks of enemies!
My companions had 18 str to be able to carry the armor and 12 agility, the rest was intelligence.
But then I visited Praven after like 400-500 days and saw you could recruit Praven Knights (really cool design btw, I really like them)!
Well, since I really wanted to play with them but they just didn't fit into my Northern lore I decided to put aside my Nothener for now and start a second playthrough with a knight!

- Second Playthrough:
So far I'm almost 500 days in. I'm a vassal of Swadia and own Praven,another castle by the coast and some random village. I picked 7 companions at the beginning to become my kingsguard but I must admit that the Praven Knights just have stats my companions can never even dream to reach!
My companions have 18 str to be able to carry a Cuir Bouilli and 12 agility to ride chargers. Otherwise I invest everything in intelligence to boost their stats and have tacticians, wound treaters and surgeons.
I myself have 24 str. to carry the Plate amor and a Gotland Bucket. I edited both so they'd have the same requirements, weight and stats like the best helmets, I just don't like the Winged helmet nor the Plate armor with the giant nipples.
My agility compared to the huscarl-playthrough had to shrink to 12 (ride a charger) because especially as a king I also need intelligence and charisma.

So yeah, as soon as my Lordly Plate Armor, my Lordly Plate Mittens, my Masterwork Sword of the Stag and my Masterwork Flanged Steel Mace are done in about 80 days I'll start a small rebellion against my king to show him who's the true King of Swadia :smile:

Anywas, really awesome mod, looking forward to the next version!
 
I can recommend, makin Borcha your trader, because of skil 20 lvl skill, (Useful contacts) he can sell everything you give him, regardless of denars that merchants have.

Like if you give him stuff that can be sold for 50 324 denars, and merchants have only 2 denars, he will find someone in the city, and sell it to him, and give you 48 293 (Because he takes his cut) :smile:
 
Greetings and thanks for all of the great feedback.

Agrippa91 said:
- I'm a vassal of the Kingdom of Swadia and got awarded Praven as I recaptured it myself after King Harlaus lost it the second time in a row to the Rhodoks. I also have a castle and both of my fiefs have training grounds. Still I do not get any veterans though I'm sure I read somewhere that you should get some regularly. Same after a town I successfully besieged. Or was that just a planned feature (can't exactl remember)?
Laying siege to a location should grant veterans unless I broke it somehow.  I'll take a look.  If you're a king then you receive veteran troops weekly based upon your right to rule.  I'd like to extend that to vassals based upon their renown, but I haven't implemented that just yet.

Still, the only way I get veterans are from tournaments and converting enemy Arbalesters and other veteran troops.
I know it's not intended that you release veteran troops and to get veterans, but otherwise all you would get was a weird mixture of elite troops from all over the world.
At the mod's current state this is entirely intended for you to be doing.  Originally "veteran" troops were "noble" troops which is partly why they were so limited in number and only gained through events.  They haven't fully been converted over to be more plentiful since that change though.

So perhaps the veterans could just appear at your fief? They want to join you anyways, so why not make it easier?
Add a ticket in at the assembla site and I'll work it in.  As long as you have a castle or town this would be more convenient.

Also Veteran Vaegiran Longbowmen were the only units so far I was not able to disband, at least not in Swadian cities.
This is a bug that affects all of the Vaegiran troops in v0.23 and will be fixed when v0.24 is released.  None of them will appear in a recruitment window for dismissal.

- Nord Huscarl don't upgrade (Veteran, Elite), other troops like Vaegir Marksmen, Praven Knights, Suno Master Archers etc. do.
The Nords, Khergits and Sarranid factions have not been revamped to use the mod's recruitment system yet.  They are still using the stock native troops and have no upgrade options.  With v0.24 I plan on adding the Nord and Khergit factions thanks to the help of Leifdin and Huillam.

- The unique troops are really cool, but I would really appreciate if the AI would use them more often! Could it be scripted that the lord of a town that has these special troops also always has some of these troops in his army? And that perhaps the king has a variety of his kingdom's elite troops in his army anyways? Would make fight against kings also more awesome.
As it is now it feels kinda like cheating when I'm the only one using Praven Knights and Suno Master Archers, I've already limited myself to 100 Master Archers and 100 Knights as a standing army, I'll use the rest as Serjeants and stuff to be a bit more realistic.
Initially when all of the factions were using native troops with only the original unique ones added the AI was using them where they could.  One of my tickets for v0.24 is to revamp that AI scripting to have them using the newly done faction uniques again.

- Since the emblems are not explained (also not in the wiki) it feels kinda weird to use them, like having bought content for an online game or sth. like that. Can you add something lorewise to that, Windyplain?
Like saying they're a symbol of guilds that donated them to the player for his outstanding roles?
I'll have to think on that.  I still intend to create the Order of the Silverstag which is where the emblem idea came from, but then they were adapted more towards being a gameplay mechanic boost to reward folks for playing Silverstag specific content within the mod.

- The ability "storyteller" doesn't seem to work for me. I should get +2 renown for every battle for each rank of persuasion (max 15)? In small battles I didn't even get the minimum amount I was supposed to, also in larger battles it seemed to me like this skill had no influence at all!
How high is your renown?  I can add how much renown you should get, but the game will lower it down (diminishing returns) if you already have a high renown score.  This is normally invisible to folks unless they turn on cheats where they see a message about how much they should have received versus how much they did receive.

- encumbrance: A cool idea and i really like it, but somehow only the player and his companions suffer from it which makes it a bit meh.
Oh, and could it be made that some stuff that primarily gets used by infantry and foot archers (the marksman clothes, banded armor) does get a weight bonus since it's would be designed really flexible compared to "real" armor?
The encumbrance system came from a player request in v0.15's development for a more harder experience for the player.  I originally looked into adding it to the AI as well, but they reacted to that rather poorly.  Either they ignored it entirely or we had naked lords running about.  This is why it was also designed so folks can enable or disable it in the options, but I still like to leave it in when I'm playing.

- somehow I don't seem to suffer damage when I fall off my horse though a message appears and I have it turned on. Is that because I it because I have such high armor and the game calculates it not as fall damage but as regular damage?
Falling damage tries to apply regular damage to you based on your total armor.  In your case you may have enough armor to compensate for that which seems realistic to me.  A knight falling over in plate mail would be fairly protected from actual harm if a bit bruised.  I originally made it so that it was unaffected by armor, but this was extremely harsh to mounted knights whether player or AI.

- It's really unclear who of the companions has read which book so far. Cozur in A Clash of Kings has done it quite nice by adding additional text not only for your reading progress, but also for you companions. Or was it part of the Floris Mod?
It was part of the Floris Mod Pack that A Clash of Kings was initially based upon.  The companion management setup will get entirely redone to use a similar "interface hub" system like you see in the town management options during a future update.  When I do that I intend to implement an interface where you can see not only what a companion has already read, but designate the next several books you want that companion to read (automatically) as those books become available.

- The tournament rewards are really nice, but sometimes the prices just sell far too good. I've stopped getting lordly black armor and stuff that sold for like 30-40k, but I still get reinforced black armor that sells for over 20 (I'm a trader with 7+2 skill but still...).
The worst is that I cannot sell that stuff anywhere because there're just no merchants that have that much money!
On the other hand that's also why I couldn't bring up enough money for really expensive commissions like a lordly armor or a masterwork sword. I now just did it by checking how much I would get theoretically, then throwing the armor away and giving me the money via cheat, but it still feels weird having so high rewards.
I agree.  The tournaments still use the same rewards we setup for Floris which is well above and beyond where they should be in Silverstag.  I plan on completely replacing the current reward system with one that takes advantage of the mod's autolooting & commissioning programming to let you select a reward from a list of items & modifiers that are limited to a specific price range and using only gear found in that region of the world.  I haven't prioritized fixing the rewards partly because you could not easily sell them to merchants, but you can barter for lesser items that can be sold elsewhere easily enough.

- Some equipment (e.g. Sword of the Stag) never appear with any merchants. I really like the sword since it has a bonus against shields AND can crush through blocks, so no opponent can stand against it when you hammer your strikes at him. On the other side it has lower stats as other swords and is unbalanced which ironically prevents it from being imbalanced compared to the other weapons.
Well, at least you can commission it (really awesome feature! 70 more days until I get my Masterwork Sword of the Stag!!!!).
They'll see more implementation with the Silverstag faction comes about.  For now the commissioning system was designed for letting folks find some of the gear like this that isn't used by troops currently or intended for market purchase.

- Abilities: I really like those! They add a whole new lair to the game without seeming inbalanced! With Wholesaler trading becomes actually viable, so I spent much time just traveling from town to town, trading and joining tourneys where I could. A cool early-game alternative to doing bandit quests and stuff all the time.
:smile:  I tend to use Thrifty and Wholesaler a lot in my games.  With the next version I suspect Charging Strike + Haste + Boundless Endurance / Sprinter will be well received.

I must say that I didn't like that the companions had prefit abilities. Basheshtur, even though he was only fighting with a long axe and throwing axes was suddenly getting the master archer skill!
Would it be possible to make like two generally good skills for companions (quartermaster, blademaster, commanding presence, stuff like that) and have an additional skill based on what they'll have used more?
Well, that's propably too much effort, it was just that I was training my companions to become my huscarl kingsguard, but later I realized while Francis and Borcha were really good people like Basheshtur just never reached the same level.
It would be more appropriate.  A lot of folks have asked about having companion abilities be customizable like the players, but this would take quite a bit of reworking and rebalancing of the ability system.  Right now companions have abilities that the player cannot receive and in some cases those benefits are fairly strong because they are preset.  If I were to make them more customized then many of those abilities would need tuning down to prevent stacking the strongest ones.  For example, I'd hate to see the imbalance of having a Siege General, Administrator and Engineer placed on each companion a player decides to make an advisor.

Anyways, this is an awesome mod and I'm super happy I took a look at it (had an interesting logo on ModDB :wink:)
Anywas, really awesome mod, looking forward to the next version!
I appreciate you taking the time to write everything up.  A lot of the feedback aligns with my own plans on where the mod needs refining so hopefully the future versions will only continue to improve.  As a reminder I'm also always welcome to suggestion tickets on Assembla for things folks would like to see altered, improved or added.  My work doesn't always let me keep up with the ticket flow right away, but on that site they are always available for me to reference and bundle together for a focused update (like v0.24's diplomacy one).
 
Windyplains said:
A knight falling over in plate mail would be fairly protected from actual harm if a bit bruised.
Are you sure? An armor can hardly absorb kinetic energy and the heavier the object is the higher that energy.
Or maybe I'm wrong. I'm not exactly a mathematic genius.
 
Huillam said:
Windyplains said:
A knight falling over in plate mail would be fairly protected from actual harm if a bit bruised.
Are you sure? An armor can hardly absorb kinetic energy and the heavier the object is the higher that energy.
Or maybe I'm wrong. I'm not exactly a mathematic genius.

No, I just thought the same. It's not like the armor is cushioned. As it is right now the Praven Knights have like super sprint and plus 100 health due to their armored horse. Thanks to that I can engage Rhodok armies of 800 men (battle size 250) with 100 Praven Knights and not have a single loss even though a lot of them fall off their horse due to the Rhodoks having Spears and Pikes.
Having them take damage when falling of their horse would balance them out a bit, it also would take some more tactical thinking (do I want them to dismount or do I just need them against crossbowmen and for rear charges?).

I read the lore preview about the Knights of the Silverstag and though I really like them I also have some apprehensions considering their equipment.
E.g. knights with warhammers that can knock all enemies unconscious are pretty imbalanaced since they're the strongest troops anyways. This just spirales out of control this way!
But perhaps you should make blunt weapons kill weapons anyways, I mean why should someone automatically survive with serious head traumata an iron mace caused?
Can you make the number of prisoners based on the party's surgery skill? Don't know how that works with the engine though.
I actually also have some idea for the Silverstag Knights. When they have two-handed swords, why not make them better on foot than Praven Knights, but less good with horses. Just give them really fast, but unarmored horses.
Because as it sounds like now they'll just become knights that are better than the Praven ones, and that would be even more imbalanced.
I'll send you some tickets tomorrow, Windyplain, considering all the changes in an ordered way, just wanted to clear my thoughts before going to sleep  :wink:
 
Actually plate mail would protect you from a fall unless you fell extremely hard or in an awkward position. Under the plate mail was typically a combination of chain and padding (made from cotton and other softer materials) in order to lesson the impact from blunt weapons. The plate mail itself defended almost perfectly from slashing weapons due to its design but strong hammers could dent them, hence the padding (similar to how a bumper on a vehicle has air cushion to lesson the impact in a crash before it all collapses). It is also for these reasons that jousters would wear plate mail so if they were dehorsed they could still function with mostly injuries from the joust itself and some minor injuries to the legs and back in the case of a bad fall.
 
jericson112 said:
Actually plate mail would protect you from a fall unless you fell extremely hard or in an awkward position. Under the plate mail was typically a combination of chain and padding (made from cotton and other softer materials) in order to lesson the impact from blunt weapons. The plate mail itself defended almost perfectly from slashing weapons due to its design but strong hammers could dent them, hence the padding (similar to how a bumper on a vehicle has air cushion to lesson the impact in a crash before it all collapses). It is also for these reasons that jousters would wear plate mail so if they were dehorsed they could still function with mostly injuries from the joust itself and some minor injuries to the legs and back in the case of a bad fall.

Well, but when you make it that way knights would be way imbalanced, would they? Because right now they kinda are. I mean they can just charge headlong into their counter-troop and not care...
 
Shouldn't this kind of power difference exist when you compare a tier 7 mounted and heavily armored unit costing 1819 denars each to another armies standard troops?  Right now the Praven Knight has little competition in that range of power, but that will change with time.  The real problem is if someone is running around with 100 of these knights (>180k value) in a save game.  That's something unintended as the game's economy still needs a lot of trimming.
 
Like Windy said right now there are no other high tier troop in the other factions with that type of power. Which does make some sense seeing as knights were highly trained nobles meant to be able to survive. Better training and armor make a huge difference. Typically a knight was beaten by dehorsing them using long spears or even just huge numbers of soldiers to eliminate their mobility. And then they were defeated by sheer numbers, brute strength, or from carefully aimed pierces in the exposed joints. There is a reason knights ruled the European battlefield up until gunpowder was invented (and even then some armor smiths developed plate mail able to withstand early gunfire).

I feel as the rest of the factions are fleshed out you will see horseman be defeated more and more in areas where their mobility is limited so that they have to fight on foot. I have found that doing so makes them much easier targets when they are unable to just ride around and kill you.
 
Huillam said:
Windyplains said:
A knight falling over in plate mail would be fairly protected from actual harm if a bit bruised.
Are you sure? An armor can hardly absorb kinetic energy and the heavier the object is the higher that energy.
Or maybe I'm wrong. I'm not exactly a mathematic genius.

Just gonna leave this here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg
and add that if armour didn't protect against kinetic energy you could knock out knights in gothic armour with a walking stick to the head, or break their ribs and whatnot. Of course it absorbs it.
(although not perfectly and completely, obviously. I'm quite fond of William Marshall's little accident who needed a blacksmith to get his helmet off after it got dented in a melee)
 
jericson112 said:
Like Windy said right now there are no other high tier troop in the other factions with that type of power. Which does make some sense seeing as knights were highly trained nobles meant to be able to survive. Better training and armor make a huge difference. Typically a knight was beaten by dehorsing them using long spears or even just huge numbers of soldiers to eliminate their mobility. And then they were defeated by sheer numbers, brute strength, or from carefully aimed pierces in the exposed joints. There is a reason knights ruled the European battlefield up until gunpowder was invented (and even then some armor smiths developed plate mail able to withstand early gunfire).

I feel as the rest of the factions are fleshed out you will see horseman be defeated more and more in areas where their mobility is limited so that they have to fight on foot. I have found that doing so makes them much easier targets when they are unable to just ride around and kill you.

Well, the thing is that exactly this happened: I charged headlong into pikes and lances and the worst my knights got was falling off their horses.
 
All arguments about balance are quite invalid now since only half of factions are done and of course, they will need a lot of polishing. For example, one thing I didn't realize is how is Swadian infantry good. I have great difficulties to make better infantry for Nords. Those for example will need to get nerfed. I wouldn't be too excited about Praven Knights. They are end game units, and you can get infantry/archers army which is almost unbeatable and costs half as much...plus it's much more efficient in sieges.

And about Rhodoks: they'll probably need some buffs since I can crush a smaller group of Rhodoks only with my main character.

There is a problem with balance, each of those factions were designed by different person, we didn't know how strong would other factions be so I made Swadia stronger since they tend to get steamrolled all the time and it's easier to tweak units down than up in my opinion.
 
This is true.  The main goal is to get them all implemented and then the mod will focus on buffing / nerfing existing troop types or adding ones as factions need.  Right now the Swadians are almost exactly where I would like to see factions.  Why?  Because they're versatile and no one has mentioned them not being fun to play probably because they're stronger than their peers at the moment.  The trick is bringing the rest up to their level such as enhancing the Rhodok's close infantry capabilities and overall resiliency.

That said, I still prefer to hear what folks experience in gameplay from a balance standpoint as those are the comments that will shape the tweaking that is to come.
 
Rouninka said:
Just gonna leave this here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg
and add that if armour didn't protect against kinetic energy you could knock out knights in gothic armour with a walking stick to the head, or break their ribs and whatnot. Of course it absorbs it.
(although not perfectly and completely, obviously. I'm quite fond of William Marshall's little accident who needed a blacksmith to get his helmet off after it got dented in a melee)
True there are a lot a myths related to plate armors. Most of them being related to mobility but jumping off your mount is not exactly the same than being brutally thrown away while trying to not end up crushed by the beast.
Most armors are designed to deflect a projectile or a blow on the side not to really absorb the impact (which is the job of the various layers of mail/leather/padded cloth under the plate itself). If blunt weapons were far more efficient against plate than their slashing counterparts there's a reason.
 
You think Swadia is brutal? Look at these hardcore m************ shredding them to pieces!
440797.jpg
 
In my current game the Swadians have been carved up by repeated wars with the Rhodoks, Nords, and Vaegirs.  They're down to a kingdom of three castles and three villages.  The Rhodoks ate Suno, Uxhall, and Praven, and the Nords currently own Dhirim although the Rhodoks and the Vaegirs have also held it at various points throughout the game.

Rhodoks are looking really strong, followed by the Khergits who have taken Ahmerrad and Durquba from the Sarranids.
 
Similar outcome here.  Swadians hold just a few castles.  At first, they got rolled by the Nords and then the Rhodoks beat back the  Nords to eventually take Praven, Sunno, Uxhal and Dhirim.  The Rhodoks also hold Narra, Halmar and Shariz.  They're kicking butt.

Saranids were destroyed early by a combo of the Khergit and Rhodok conquest.
 
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