Shields are OP (combat balance)

[ClickForFreeBeer]

The "I don't like it, so it's OP and should be removed" arguments.

Classic.

Classic condescending comment which contributes absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation.

I even suggested alternatives to balance out the shield troops in more enjoyable and realistic ways than divine planks of wood with the power to negate physics. I like to play this style of fighting alongside others, and it can get pretty boring as the shield keeps you alive a lot longer than it should and the attacks are too clumsy to be used effectively in a close-quarter shieldwalls.

Besides, enjoyment of the mechanics is still an important feature (this is a videogame after all). A game balanced in a fun and semi-realistic manner is so much better than a game balanced in a bland and irritating way. If you're so adverse to change, why on earth are you playing an early-access game?

 

[havvy]

Shields should be OP at this state of the game and i think it's linked with cavalry problem. Cavalry useless and one of the reason is stupidly low charge damage values, they don't need Pureblood level charge damage, 12-24 range is makes useful cavs, even cataphracts.

After this small charge damage tweak lance user cavs (Banner Knight, Heavy Lancer, Druzhinnik Champion and Vanguard Faris) basically destroys all of the infantry you threw in their way except voulgier. You might ask how can they balance this situation, clear answer is Spear Brace which is added to the game a few patches ago but not implemented in SP.

Basically, fix cavalry-->shield infantry becames too weak--> add spear brace for balancing. But they need rework troop trees and it means more work which they don't like

There's a old mod for it;

Mod unavailable

This mod is not currently available

www.nexusmods.com

 

[babelfisch]

Shields should be OP at this state of the game and i think it's linked with cavalry problem. Cavalry useless and one of the reason is stupidly low charge damage values, they don't need Pureblood level charge damage, 12-24 range is makes useful cavs, even cataphracts.

After this small charge damage tweak lance user cavs (Banner Knight, Heavy Lancer, Druzhinnik Champion and Vanguard Faris) basically destroys all of the infantry you threw in their way except voulgier. You might ask how can they balance this situation, clear answer is Spear Brace which is added to the game a few patches ago but not implemented in SP.

Basically, fix cavalry-->shield infantry becames too weak--> add spear brace for balancing. But they need rework troop trees and it means more work which they don't like

There's a old mod for it;

Mod unavailable

This mod is not currently available

www.nexusmods.com

English is not my first language, pls be nice

There is something wrong with cavalry:



He rides through a hundred soldiers and the horse doesn't care. If that gets changed we can talk about charge damage.

Sorry for the off topic comment.

 

[havvy]

He rides through a hundred soldiers and the horse doesn't care. If that gets changed we can talk about charge damage.

This is Pureblood which has 35 of charge damage, it means you can deliver almost 70 blunt damage at full speed. I was talking about regular war horses.

 

[babelfisch]

This is Pureblood which has 35 of charge damage, it means you can deliver almost 70 blunt damage at full speed. I was talking about regular war horses.

Yes, I wasn't talking about charge damage but the issue that the horse never stops.

 

[Abyssos]

why would he stop? he didnt hit a wall and clearly u never saw a horse in rl that thing is huge haha

 

[ArturMorhghain]

Seems they updated thrown weapons damage to shields in 1.5.9.

• Javelins now deal 75% of their weapon damage to shields (increased from 10%).
• Throwing Impale perk now lets javelins penetrate shields as intended.
• Throwing axes now deal 50% of their weapon damage to shields (increased from 10%).

I’m curious how my skirmishers will do now.

 

[babelfisch]

why would he stop? he didnt hit a wall and clearly u never saw a horse in rl that thing is huge haha

A horse weights 500-1000 kg.
100 soldiers weight 10000 kg. There should be some effect.

 

[Antaeus]

Did you only read the bit about archery? I'm not talking about archery-based tactics, I'm talking about the player experience of having shots blocked by magic shields...

The answer to every tactical problem in bannerlord shouldn't be "mass archers/HA" but it always is because shield infantry is only really useful as an arrow sponge rn.

Same solution.

If you're having trouble with shields, splint your infantry and attack from a flank. If their infantry are in any line formation you roll them up pretty quickly if you're attacking from two directions at once and overlap their line.

 

[Sh1mbo]

a minority of ppl where saying that shields where OP in Morhau, sadly the devs pay attention to thos guys and that doesnt end very well....

 

[Apocal]

Seems they updated thrown weapons damage to shields in 1.5.9.

I’m curious how my skirmishers will do now.

Tested: they still suck ass.

 

[ClickForFreeBeer]

Same solution.

If you're having trouble with shields, splint your infantry and attack from a flank. If their infantry are in any line formation you roll them up pretty quickly if you're attacking from two directions at once and overlap their line.

You're not getting it man...

I know flanking is effective.

I am not struggling tactically against shield troops.

I'm saying they're annoying to fight as the player, because the shields protect them too well. I can still kill them because of the janky AI and animations, they're just irritating to fight and the source of that is they have an overpowered shield.

I also find the shield boring to use as the player because they're too good at negating damage and catching everything, but the animations and stupid AI ruin any fun or realistic shieldwall fighting, which is the whole point of a sword and shield focused character for me.

I mean thanks for trying to help with tactical advice, but I'm not struggling to defeat AI troops, I just wish the combat was more deadly and dynamic. ATM flanking works so well because it doesn't matter that the melee troops are dumb and miss most of their hits, as you're effectively fighting them 2:1 if you're flanking - so you still have the upperhand. Loose formation also works well against enemy inf because the troops have room to swing and thus get caught up on their comrades less.

 

[Antaeus]

Right. so you're just having a moan because you don't like a class of troops who happen to have a good tool for self defence?? I mean there's a reason why shields were one of the first tools for war invented, and are still hanging on riot police lockers now. They're effective. They should work well in game. They should work so well you have to use your tactical nous to defeat them. They aren't a passive device. The person holding them can respond to your attacks and move them, and shove you with them. In a shield wall they can even defend their fellow shield wallers to add to their effectiveness. It sounds like you want them to have a tiny buckler shield, and to not move them and just stand there so you can hit around them?

Or you is it that don't like the animations?

 

[ClickForFreeBeer]

Right. so you're just having a moan because you don't like a class of troops who happen to have a good tool for self defence?? I mean there's a reason why shields were one of the first tools for war invented, and are still hanging on riot police lockers now. They're effective. They should work well in game. They should work so well you have to use your tactical nous to defeat them. They aren't a passive device. The person holding them can respond to your attacks and move them, and shove you with them. In a shield wall they can even defend their fellow shield wallers to add to their effectiveness. It sounds like you want them to have a tiny buckler shield, and to not move them and just stand there so you can hit around them?

Or you is it that don't like the animations?

No, man, did you even read the first post?

My issue is exactly that they currently behave like a passive device, the AI in combat don't do any of what you said, and shield troops instead rely on the crutch of shield's hitboxes extending to thin air around the shield and having absolutely no stagger or guard-breaking when taking heavy blows from two handed weapons at weak angles. All grounded in realism, I assure you, I don't want shields to become paper dinner plates, I just want them to be a more active and dynamic object that obeys the laws of physics.

I don't get how you got that I want everyone to have bucklers, I'm saying that the protection of the shield extends past the physical borders of the shield. If anything I think units with bigger shields are short-changed by this cheat as you don't really notice the extra protection. What you suggest is exactly the opposite of what I want, I want them to actually have to move the shield to use it effectively, not just hold it out flat in front with just a hand grip and block everything. For example, side swing with a 2h axe against a guy with a shield: the axe head clearly enters the head of the character model, as it goes around the side of the badly positioned shield - I hear a 'donk' and no damage done... like wtf my axe was just inside that guy's head.

My specific gripe with the animation of 1h swords is that the thrust goes really far out to the side and thus gets blocked by your own troops in tight formations. Couple in the fact that troops throw their shields behind them when attacking (and also when attacking, the shield provides no melee protection at all, even if the enemy sword has to travel through it) and fighting with or against shield troops is just plain boring and frustrating. I mean the best strategy against a guy with a shield is just hold a swing waiting for him to clumsily attack, as you'll almost always beat him to the punch. No baiting him one way to strike at his unprotected side.

I still don't get why you're saying you need tactics to defeat shield inf, as you don't right now and it was never a complaint that I found shield infantry armies hard to beat as a commander... shield infantry are one of the easiest troop formations to beat besides pure recruits, I'm saying the shield itself is OP.

 

[ClickForFreeBeer]

Tested: they still suck ass.

Shame :/

 

[ClickForFreeBeer]

A horse weights 500-1000 kg.
100 soldiers weight 10000 kg. There should be some effect.

Those are some fat soldiers lol, I'd blame it on the chainmail
I mean tbf it does look like the horse slows down a bit, and that 10000kg isn't hitting the horse all at once (loose formation after all), plus the horse has momentum and doesn't have to actually move the entire weight of the soldier, just has to knock him off balance.

For example, you may be able to push away an 80kg person, but that doesn't mean you can bench press 80kg.

Your horse also doesn't make contact with all 100 men. The AI really shouldn't let you just ride through and let you cleave off their heads though, I mean get out of the way you idiots, but it's not the force of 100 men vs. 1 horseyboi.

But lets say a warhorse + its rider happens to weight exactly 1000kg and rides through a loose crowd of 100kg footmen.

That is equivalent to an 80kg adult running through a loose scattering of 100 10 month old babies (roughly 8.5-9kg average). So the real question is, how babies do you think it would take to stop you personally?

 

[Calabanar]

Those are some fat soldiers lol, I'd blame it on the chainmail
I mean tbf it does look like the horse slows down a bit, and that 10000kg isn't hitting the horse all at once (loose formation after all), plus the horse has momentum and doesn't have to actually move the entire weight of the soldier, just has to knock him off balance.

For example, you may be able to push away an 80kg person, but that doesn't mean you can bench press 80kg.

Your horse also doesn't make contact with all 100 men. The AI really shouldn't let you just ride through and let you cleave off their heads though, I mean get out of the way you idiots, but it's not the force of 100 men vs. 1 horseyboi.

But lets say a warhorse + its rider happens to weight exactly 1000kg and rides through a loose crowd of 100kg footmen.

That is equivalent to an 80kg adult running through a loose scattering of 100 10 month old babies (roughly 8.5-9kg average). So the real question is, how babies do you think it would take to stop you personally?

I doubt reducing the argument to weight vs weight is the way to go. Plus, comparing a horse running into a baby is too much of an extreme, the baby doesn't even reach the adult's torso. Using chairs as the obstacles feels more appropriate. So, run into a chair, it doesn't way more than 10 kg yet it can still slow you down considerably. Now try running into a bunch of chairs. Even if you don't ram them, you will lose speed and control on the direction you are going if you try to maintain your speed. It wouldn't stop you or reduce your speed to a crawl immediately (unless you are clumsy or unlucky), but it wouldn't take more than ten chairs to do that, especially if they are close to each to other.

The way horsemen go through dense formations right now is how I would imagine them to go through spread out lines: barely losing momentum.

The way I see it, current problems are as follows:

- Horsemen can go through entire formations and barely be impacted

- Horsemen also appear to be able to cross any terrain without noticeable speed penalties

- The AI in general is bad at using polearms, which prevents them from properly intercepting cavalry

- Since infantry cannot deal with cavalry effectively, the charge damage had to be drastically reduced so that cav isn't absolutely op

- Since infantry can neither be placed or organized in a meaningful way to fight cavalry, and since they don't often hit cavalry, they were granted the power to stop horsemen if they poke them with sticks.

All of these problems combined make the dynamic between them... unsatisfying, you can't effectively kill infantry as cav and vice versa.

On an additional note, I don't like how fast horses reach maximum speed and wish it would take more time. It would make outmaneuvering and trapping cav in formations a bigger deal and rewarding.

 

[ClickForFreeBeer]

I doubt reducing the argument to weight vs weight is the way to go. Plus, comparing a horse running into a baby is too much of an extreme, the baby doesn't even reach the adult's torso. Using chairs as the obstacles feels more appropriate. So, run into a chair, it doesn't way more than 10 kg yet it can still slow you down considerably. Now try running into a bunch of chairs. Even if you don't ram them, you will lose speed and control on the direction you are going if you try to maintain your speed. It wouldn't stop you or reduce your speed to a crawl immediately (unless you are clumsy or unlucky), but it wouldn't take more than ten chairs to do that, especially if they are close to each to other.

The way horsemen go through dense formations right now is how I would imagine them to go through spread out lines: barely losing momentum.

The way I see it, current problems are as follows:

- Horsemen can go through entire formations and barely be impacted

- Horsemen also appear to be able to cross any terrain without noticeable speed penalties

- The AI in general is bad at using polearms, which prevents them from properly intercepting cavalry

- Since infantry cannot deal with cavalry effectively, the charge damage had to be drastically reduced so that cav isn't absolutely op

- Since infantry can neither be placed or organized in a meaningful way to fight cavalry, and since they don't often hit cavalry, they were granted the power to stop horsemen if they poke them with sticks.

All of these problems combined make the dynamic between them... unsatisfying, you can't effectively kill infantry as cav and vice versa.

On an additional note, I don't like how fast horses reach maximum speed and wish it would take more time. It would make outmaneuvering and trapping cav in formations a bigger deal and rewarding.

Oh yeah, I know, just the other guy mentioned weight and I found the baby idea amusing to demonstrate exactly that weight isn't all that matters, for some reason (don't tell my psychiatrist).

Tbf, even with chairs it's not perfect as chairs are quadrupedal and the human would be bipedal, whereas it's the other way around with horse and human; however, I'd still feel confident I could maintain decent speed, but not top speed, going through the chairs in a similar manner to the GIF shown (obviously unless I tripped). I think the important thing for that particular GIF was they were charging through a loose formation of archers rather than a tight formation... I think perhaps a little more slowing would have been good, but I see absolutely no reason for the horse to stop. I find tight and dense formations are more than enough to stop horsemen going through, the issue is when they slowly then walk out with the shield infantry missing half of their swings lol. I wouldn't mind shieldwall becoming strong head-on against cav charges, but would have to be an active bonus when in formation which is broken when the formation is + would need the boarsnout so infantry can counter one.

Tbh I mostly agree with you - the balance between troop types is pretty passive rn rather than dynamic. All troop types should have a deadly niche but also a fatal weakness, but rn it's just archer/horse-archer armies beat everything... I edited the bows in my game to do 25% less damage and it helped quite a bit to make melee troops more useful, but more work is still needed (bit off topic but ?‍♂️)

 

[Calabanar]

Makes sense :p

Props to you if you can keep good speed whilst literally running into chairs, truly! I find the stopping power of dense formations to be lacking though, and that paired with, as you stated, the incompetence of infantry when it comes to hitting horsemen... oof! The easiest fix with formation strength would be that they have lower mass/cohesion at the back, so if you charge them from the back or sides your cavalry can push through unlike if they charged from the front.

We agree then!

 

[Lord Bryggan]

I use Realistic Battle Mod which makes the AI even more defensive, and yes, I do find it annoying when a low tier enemy turtles behind his shield when all I want to do is quickly kill him so I can get to where I'm going. But c'mon, that is exactly what a scared soldier would do.

Battlefields are not the place for duels. As said, flanking is the best way to tear apart your enemy foot soldiers. And quite frankly I wish the soldiers would be even more defensive. Even with Realistic Battle Mod I don't have time to attempt maneuvers. I'm trying a Cav-less Sturgian army this round, and I would love if I could use my line-breakers effectively to either flank or to... well... break the line. But then I'd need some shielders to protect them from the enemy ranged, plus split my regular troops into two, three or maybe four divisions so I can either spread them out or pull back, plus have a reserve which I could use to add men to flagging divisions.

But this will never happen. In real life two equally sized battle lines could fight for hours until exhaustion set in. A soldiers first and main priority was staying alive. Spears kept everyone a healthy distance away from each other, and the shields were never ever lowered. Now I'm not saying every battle should last several hours, but even if you had two equal armies fighting face to face with no flanking or any tactics it should at least last ten minutes.

So I say lets make AI even more defensive, and give recruits shields. It's odd that the worst soldiers would not have one of the cheapest pieces of equipment to produce.