Shield Mechanic Broken just a bit

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Runcop

Sergeant
I don't know if the shield is supposed to block hits like this the video will explain the problem completely.

 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Looking into it, thanks.

giphy.webp


I am sorry to come here with these manners pointing "the inquisitive finger", but I have to say that "this problem" has been going on for a long time. In the closed alpha-beta period we already discussed this type of problem with you guys; I even opened a thread with videos demonstrating it. The problem persists to this day...(despite the warnings)

b0.8.5 (March 16, 2020)e1.5.3 (October 26, 2020)
 

Electre

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNW
Can't tell if connected, but shields act like magnets to arrows, when shooting an arrow to a player waking up from a horse fall, it'll very likely hit his shield no matter where it is.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Most likely its not fixable. If they make the hit detection too small attacks just simply might go through the shield. (even with the correct block up)
 
Can't tell if connected, but shields act like magnets to arrows, when shooting an arrow to a player waking up from a horse fall, it'll very likely hit his shield no matter where it is.
That's probably because arrows hit the hitbox (which is bigger than the actual shield), but arrows can only stick to the "visible" shield or you would have floating arrows.
Most likely its not fixable. If they make the hit detection too small attacks just simply might go through the shield. (even with the correct block up)
It's fixable, maybe not to a perfect state but it is. It could have the effect of increasing the calculations needed to make it good, but...

bB-4e3WEGdJT9CpSDMtIfzKKLGCHdFPAwIPh-gtHnTxxtLE2URkEsByEizXgO7Jb3PLZWg4w7E4XneWvKBYCNHJ4YBLR1mGclQG-jw
 

WMorton

Sergeant
WBWF&SNW
I've also noticed that some attacks seem to go through the edges of a shield, kinda the opposite issue than in the video. However its like a constant thing
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
Hey everyone, I made some improvements to the blocking cones (which is what these issues brought forward here are about). It will be in beta within the next 1-2 patches and then make its way to live.

But I got to make clear that we don't view what happened in these videos as bugs. It's actually by design. This might feel weird and counterintuitive but let me explain:

What are blocking cones?
Blocking cones define an area around your character, in which incoming attacks will be blocked. Each blocking direction has its individual blocking cone, meaning weapons blocking to the left have a different cone, than shields or hand shields. Additionally for “weapon blocking” the attack direction also influences the size and direction of the blocking cone, while it stays the same for shield and handshield blocking.
Attack direction: Right (so from the defenders point of view, the left block is the correct one)
qI9t9vh.png

BsbXYzS.png

Notice how the Sphere turns blue on the incorrect block. Which means that it will hit the player.

Now lets rotate the character!
6gxFbhg.png

Notice how, because the defender had rotated into the attack direction, the attack can be blocked even with an incorrect block! (red sphere on the attacker)

vYdcZaT.png

And eventhough this block is correct, because of the rotation the attacker will get a hit on the defender (blue sphere)
hdqKM9g.png

Shield blocking to the middle. Notice how the cone is really narrow compared to weapon blocks, but covers the whole body.

VorxM2w.png

Shield blocking to the side. Its not covering as much of the "wrong side" of the body as the middle block (but still way more than a wrong weapon block). So it will be easier to hit around the "wrong side" but a lot harder to hit around the "correct" side of the block.

Why don't we use the actual mesh of shields and weapons for blocking?
By nature in M&B the blocking cones need to be bigger than the actual mesh (shield, sword etc.), since we can't expect a 100% correct 3d input by the players for every incoming attack. Being 100% accurate would mean that the players somehow need to be able to not only block in the correct direction, but also at the right angle with the weapon and the correct arm position. Which are things only some VR games really make players do, or maybe QWOP lol

We assume that in real life someone holding a shield, would have a certain “radius” around where the shield is, where that someone could quickly/intuitively react and block incoming attacks. Putting that input into the responsibility of the players would add a crazy new layer to our combat gameplay and complicate it massively. I think this “wiggle room” is a fair thing to put into the hands of the game/character and not the players, kaing the gameplay better but losing out on the realism aspect in the scenarios brought up in this thread.
Also since we have different sizes of shields and weapons, we would need a custom block cone for every one of them, making it so you would have to basically relearn blocking with every new weapon you pick up. It would totally shake up the game balance as well and in the end it would actually feel less consistent.

The combat system is complicated enough. Blocking with shields already is harder than in warband (since we have directional blocking with it as well now to a degree) and there is no balance reason to punish shield users anymore.

What will change with the coming updates?
1
. I reduced the cone size for the inner side of shields. This reduces the blocking cone you have, with your shield, when it's in the “wrong” direction and are rotated away from the attack.
2. I made it so that “wrong” weapon blocks have a slightly larger cone to the front, since usually the weapons are angled slightly forward as well. So it will fit the ingame representation better.

Both of the changes are not dramatic. Dont expect to feel a difference right away. But (especially the first one) should reduce the scenarios that came up in this thread and make them less dramatic. But they will still happen to a degree!


Can there not be two different hitboxes? one for the melee weapons and one for the arrows?
There is a different hitbox for shields blocking missiles. That hitbox has nothing to do with the blocking cones, but comes from the actual shield size, increasing it a bit further giving it also something like a “wiggle room” which I explained above.
 
Last edited:

Revverie

Hey everyone, I made some improvements to the blocking cones (which is what these issues brought forward here are about). It will be in beta within the next 1-2 patches and then make its way to live.

But I got to make clear that we don't view what happened in these videos as bugs. It's actually by design. This might feel weird and counterintuitive but let me explain:

What are blocking cones?
Blocking cones define an area around your character, in which incoming attacks will be blocked. Each blocking direction has its individual blocking cone, meaning weapons blocking to the left have a different cone, than shields or hand shields. Additionally for “weapon blocking” the attack direction also influences the size and direction of the blocking cone, while it stays the same for shield and handshield blocking.
Attack direction: Right (so from the defenders point of view, the left block is the correct one)
qI9t9vh.png

BsbXYzS.png

Notice how the Sphere turns blue on the incorrect block. Which means that it will hit the player.

Now lets rotate the character!
6gxFbhg.png

Notice how, because the defender had rotated into the attack direction, the attack can be blocked even with an incorrect block! (red sphere on the attacker)

vYdcZaT.png

And eventhough this block is correct, because of the rotation the attacker will get a hit on the defender (blue sphere)
hdqKM9g.png

Shield blocking to the middle. Notice how the cone is really narrow compared to weapon blocks, but covers the whole body.

VorxM2w.png

Shield blocking to the side. Its not covering as much of the "wrong side" of the body as the middle block (but still way more than a wrong weapon block). So it will be easier to hit around the "wrong side" but a lot harder to hit around the "correct" side of the block.

Why don't we use the actual mesh of shields and weapons for blocking?
By nature in M&B the blocking cones need to be bigger than the actual mesh (shield, sword etc.), since we can't expect a 100% correct 3d input by the players for every incoming attack. Being 100% accurate would mean that the players somehow need to be able to not only block in the correct direction, but also at the right angle with the weapon and the correct arm position. Which are things only some VR games really make players do, or maybe QWOP lol

We assume that in real life someone holding a shield, would have a certain “radius” around where the shield is, where that someone could quickly/intuitively react and block incoming attacks. Putting that input into the responsibility of the players would add a crazy new layer to our combat gameplay and complicate it massively. I think this “wiggle room” is a fair thing to put into the hands of the game/character and not the players, kaing the gameplay better but losing out on the realism aspect in the scenarios brought up in this thread.
Also since we have different sizes of shields and weapons, we would need a custom block cone for every one of them, making it so you would have to basically relearn blocking with every new weapon you pick up. It would totally shake up the game balance as well and in the end it would actually feel less consistent.

The combat system is complicated enough. Blocking with shields already is harder than in warband (since we have directional blocking with it as well now to a degree) and there is no balance reason to punish shield users anymore.

What will change with the coming updates?
1
. I reduced the cone size for the inner side of shields. This reduces the blocking cone you have, with your shield, when it's in the “wrong” direction and are rotated away from the attack.
2. I made it so that “wrong” weapon blocks have a slightly larger cone to the front, since usually the weapons are angled slightly forward as well. So it will fit the ingame representation better.

Both of the changes are not dramatic. Dont expect to feel a difference right away. But (especially the first one) should reduce the scenarios that came up in this thread and make them less dramatic. But they will still happen to a degree!



There is a different hitbox for shields blocking missiles. That hitbox has nothing to do with the blocking cones, but comes from the actual shield size, increasing it a bit further giving it also something like a “wiggle room” which I explained above.
Honestly, I agree with this design
 

♛AXDER

Squire
WBNW
Hey everyone, I made some improvements to the blocking cones (which is what these issues brought forward here are about). It will be in beta within the next 1-2 patches and then make its way to live.

But I got to make clear that we don't view what happened in these videos as bugs. It's actually by design. This might feel weird and counterintuitive but let me explain:

What are blocking cones?
Blocking cones define an area around your character, in which incoming attacks will be blocked. Each blocking direction has its individual blocking cone, meaning weapons blocking to the left have a different cone, than shields or hand shields. Additionally for “weapon blocking” the attack direction also influences the size and direction of the blocking cone, while it stays the same for shield and handshield blocking.
Attack direction: Right (so from the defenders point of view, the left block is the correct one)
qI9t9vh.png

BsbXYzS.png

Notice how the Sphere turns blue on the incorrect block. Which means that it will hit the player.

Now lets rotate the character!
6gxFbhg.png

Notice how, because the defender had rotated into the attack direction, the attack can be blocked even with an incorrect block! (red sphere on the attacker)

vYdcZaT.png

And eventhough this block is correct, because of the rotation the attacker will get a hit on the defender (blue sphere)
hdqKM9g.png

Shield blocking to the middle. Notice how the cone is really narrow compared to weapon blocks, but covers the whole body.

VorxM2w.png

Shield blocking to the side. Its not covering as much of the "wrong side" of the body as the middle block (but still way more than a wrong weapon block). So it will be easier to hit around the "wrong side" but a lot harder to hit around the "correct" side of the block.

Why don't we use the actual mesh of shields and weapons for blocking?
By nature in M&B the blocking cones need to be bigger than the actual mesh (shield, sword etc.), since we can't expect a 100% correct 3d input by the players for every incoming attack. Being 100% accurate would mean that the players somehow need to be able to not only block in the correct direction, but also at the right angle with the weapon and the correct arm position. Which are things only some VR games really make players do, or maybe QWOP lol

We assume that in real life someone holding a shield, would have a certain “radius” around where the shield is, where that someone could quickly/intuitively react and block incoming attacks. Putting that input into the responsibility of the players would add a crazy new layer to our combat gameplay and complicate it massively. I think this “wiggle room” is a fair thing to put into the hands of the game/character and not the players, kaing the gameplay better but losing out on the realism aspect in the scenarios brought up in this thread.
Also since we have different sizes of shields and weapons, we would need a custom block cone for every one of them, making it so you would have to basically relearn blocking with every new weapon you pick up. It would totally shake up the game balance as well and in the end it would actually feel less consistent.

The combat system is complicated enough. Blocking with shields already is harder than in warband (since we have directional blocking with it as well now to a degree) and there is no balance reason to punish shield users anymore.

What will change with the coming updates?
1
. I reduced the cone size for the inner side of shields. This reduces the blocking cone you have, with your shield, when it's in the “wrong” direction and are rotated away from the attack.
2. I made it so that “wrong” weapon blocks have a slightly larger cone to the front, since usually the weapons are angled slightly forward as well. So it will fit the ingame representation better.

Both of the changes are not dramatic. Dont expect to feel a difference right away. But (especially the first one) should reduce the scenarios that came up in this thread and make them less dramatic. But they will still happen to a degree!



There is a different hitbox for shields blocking missiles. That hitbox has nothing to do with the blocking cones, but comes from the actual shield size, increasing it a bit further giving it also something like a “wiggle room” which I explained above.
I'm glad the changes are in the right way.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
I've never really had a problem with it, only time it's really noticeable (and after NIN3's explanation, seems to have been adjusted) is on the Sturgian overhead shield blocks, as seen in Terco_Viejo's video a few posts up. Either way, cool to see it's getting refined even further.

I think you should have a look at what happens with the hitboxes when you're on a horse however, as there's been countless times where I've aimed a spear at the horse or even below it and it seems to somehow make contact with the shield.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I do think Piconi shield mod should be implemented for sieges. Because right now going up a ladder or siege tower is complete hell
 
Very good explanation, this is what the community needs. Now we can focus on other problems without repeating ourselves continuously and making hate threads.
I think you should have a look at what happens with the hitboxes when you're on a horse however, as there's been countless times where I've aimed a spear at the horse or even below it and it seems to somehow make contact with the shield.
I have seen this as well. Maybe this change will fix it, but would be nice if this was investigated.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
Very good explanation, this is what the community needs. Now we can focus on other problems without repeating ourselves continuously and making hate threads.

I have seen this as well. Maybe this change will fix it, but would be nice if this was investigated.
These changes dont touch horse combat blocking at all. But I'll check it out
 

Demochi

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Hey everyone, I made some improvements to the blocking cones (which is what these issues brought forward here are about). It will be in beta within the next 1-2 patches and then make its way to live.

But I got to make clear that we don't view what happened in these videos as bugs. It's actually by design. This might feel weird and counterintuitive but let me explain:

What are blocking cones?
Blocking cones define an area around your character, in which incoming attacks will be blocked. Each blocking direction has its individual blocking cone, meaning weapons blocking to the left have a different cone, than shields or hand shields. Additionally for “weapon blocking” the attack direction also influences the size and direction of the blocking cone, while it stays the same for shield and handshield blocking.
Attack direction: Right (so from the defenders point of view, the left block is the correct one)
qI9t9vh.png

BsbXYzS.png

Notice how the Sphere turns blue on the incorrect block. Which means that it will hit the player.

Now lets rotate the character!
6gxFbhg.png

Notice how, because the defender had rotated into the attack direction, the attack can be blocked even with an incorrect block! (red sphere on the attacker)

vYdcZaT.png

And eventhough this block is correct, because of the rotation the attacker will get a hit on the defender (blue sphere)
hdqKM9g.png

Shield blocking to the middle. Notice how the cone is really narrow compared to weapon blocks, but covers the whole body.

VorxM2w.png

Shield blocking to the side. Its not covering as much of the "wrong side" of the body as the middle block (but still way more than a wrong weapon block). So it will be easier to hit around the "wrong side" but a lot harder to hit around the "correct" side of the block.

Why don't we use the actual mesh of shields and weapons for blocking?
By nature in M&B the blocking cones need to be bigger than the actual mesh (shield, sword etc.), since we can't expect a 100% correct 3d input by the players for every incoming attack. Being 100% accurate would mean that the players somehow need to be able to not only block in the correct direction, but also at the right angle with the weapon and the correct arm position. Which are things only some VR games really make players do, or maybe QWOP lol

We assume that in real life someone holding a shield, would have a certain “radius” around where the shield is, where that someone could quickly/intuitively react and block incoming attacks. Putting that input into the responsibility of the players would add a crazy new layer to our combat gameplay and complicate it massively. I think this “wiggle room” is a fair thing to put into the hands of the game/character and not the players, kaing the gameplay better but losing out on the realism aspect in the scenarios brought up in this thread.
Also since we have different sizes of shields and weapons, we would need a custom block cone for every one of them, making it so you would have to basically relearn blocking with every new weapon you pick up. It would totally shake up the game balance as well and in the end it would actually feel less consistent.

The combat system is complicated enough. Blocking with shields already is harder than in warband (since we have directional blocking with it as well now to a degree) and there is no balance reason to punish shield users anymore.

What will change with the coming updates?
1
. I reduced the cone size for the inner side of shields. This reduces the blocking cone you have, with your shield, when it's in the “wrong” direction and are rotated away from the attack.
2. I made it so that “wrong” weapon blocks have a slightly larger cone to the front, since usually the weapons are angled slightly forward as well. So it will fit the ingame representation better.

Both of the changes are not dramatic. Dont expect to feel a difference right away. But (especially the first one) should reduce the scenarios that came up in this thread and make them less dramatic. But they will still happen to a degree!



There is a different hitbox for shields blocking missiles. That hitbox has nothing to do with the blocking cones, but comes from the actual shield size, increasing it a bit further giving it also something like a “wiggle room” which I explained above.
How do stab animations play into down-block hitboxes? A stab to the face can be down-blocked, but a rightswing to the face can not be down-blocked.
 

Kripaz

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
How do stab animations play into down-block hitboxes? A stab to the face can be down-blocked, but a rightswing to the face can not be down-blocked.
Also adding to that, how does it look like when stab/thrust is blocked with a side block aka. "panic block".
 

hoonii

Knight
These changes dont touch horse combat blocking at all. But I'll check it out
Or sometimes cavalry shield doesn't act like a shield, instead an imaginary object, and throwing weapons or spears goes right through it. IDK maybe its a client side/connection issue but its very annoying to get hit from the angle you're blocking.
Attack direction: Right (so from the defenders point of view, the left block is the correct one)
qI9t9vh.png
So lets say a guy with 1 handed sword is located at far right and you standing still while blocking left as shown and the enemy swings from right and both guys are parallel to each other as shown in the picture. The sword doesn't have enough reach to hit your weapon but the hit lands inside the blocking cone, will the attack be blocked even though weapons don't collide but because its inside the blocking cone? Or does the weapons needs to collide with each other so the blocking cone is activated? I can understand this for long two handed weapons but one handed short swords needs explaining.
 
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