Secondary Attacks: a how-to (with pictures!)

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Destichado

Squire
The idea of having secondary attacks has been kicked around on this forum off an on, half-heartedly, for at least a year now.  Someone suggests it, some few of us think it "might" be an "okay" idea, but implamentation has always been a problem.  So has the idea of what the secondary attack would actually be.  My suggestion takes care of implamentation, and proivides a platform for shield-bashing, hilt-punching, making polearms behave more like poilearms, fechtbook moves, and any number of other frequently suggested ideas.

Well, they say that a picture is worth a thousand words.  So, if you will forgive me for a mess of near stick-figures, hastily sketched on the spurr of the moment, allow me to substitute a few dozen paragraphs.



secondary_attacks.jpg




Now, if you'll permit me to explain:

One of the beauties of M&B is that the left muse click ASSUMES the ready possition, and that relase triggers the attack.  This compares favorably to a game like, say, Oblivion, where the click triggers attack wheather you would have prefered to wait for a better moment or not.
I believe that the way to make secondary attacks work well is to make the both the primary and secondary attack flow from the same ready position("wards" or "guards" in fechtbook terms).  Pressing the left mouse button will assume the guard postion based on the position of the cursor, just as it is now.  Releasing the mouse button will trigger attack, just as it does now.  Releasing the mouse button while simultaniously pressing the "secondary attack button" will produce a new attack with a different animation.  (For the secondary attack button I like Z or Ctrl, personally, but that can be configured to taste like everything else.)


The purpose of having a secondary attack is usually to produce a different kind of damage.  Here it is no different.  A thrust-only spear does piercing damage.  Its secondary attack, a butt-stroke, would deal blunt.  You can see the usefullness already.  When fists were introduced, we realized that if we were prepared to accept much less damage, we could stop carrying around a blunt weapon for knocking out the Noble.  Siimilarly, if you're prepared to accept lesser damage, using the secondary attack you could pommel, butt-stroke and shield-bash your enemies into submission.
But with M&B's parrying system we would get a new utility, for while primary and secondary attacks would flow out of the same initial position, the attacks can come from in different vectors.  (EG: the primary attack with sword & shield, vs a shield bash.)  If you're in the high guard with an opponent who's bliocking high?  Thrust your pommel at him instead, before he changes guards. Using a quarterstaff like a quarterstaff would actually become possible.

I think we're all clever enough to figure out the logical secondary attacks for each guard position, especially given the drawing, but I can list them all if need be.



I realize that this would be a chore and a half to animate -doubling the attack animations- and would require adding even more stats to weapons and shields  It may potentially add to system requirements, but not in a comparitively signifigant way.  On the other hand, think of all the benefits.  It's a relatively simple way to get the shield-bashing we want.  It would add a great degree of realiism to the game -some of it straight out of the fechtbooks.  And it could be used to give throwing troops melee options without switching weaons. 


(PS: Forgive the second row illustrations.  The stick figure is clearly readying and delivering a thrust, but I mis-labeled it as an overhead cut.  Sorry!)
 
I like your ideas, and they're well presented too. This might be something that could realisticly be implemented and work well too. It would certainly make combat more interesting, but I suppose the combat model would have to be overhauled quite a bit as well.

On a side note, if the combat in mount&blade is ever worked on, the first thing I would like to see happen is for blows of a certain size made to not have an affect on the attack of an armour-wearer (or even without armour). It's ridiculous for a few peasants to be able to kill an armoured knight by prodding him again and again with sticks so that all he can do is stand there without retaliating. After thats fixed, you're free to add all your extra perks :wink:.
 
Good stuff Destichado. I just thought that I would let you know that I appreciate the photos and history ****. Thanks for making good interesting posts. (This goes for Aqtai and Damien as well, by the way, oh yeah but not Jerky)
 
This would solve the 'parrying of a thousand spears' problem, in which the pc manages to keep an entire army of spearmen at bay by holding the right mouse-button. Great post.
 
Beautiful.  Wonderful.  Glorious.

So, uhh... what's the secondary attack button? :wink:

Actually, I think a double-click would work well with your system.  Well, not a standard double-click, because it would work with a delay.  What I mean is that if you left-click within, say, an half-second of releasing the attack button it would perform the secondary attack.  So:

- if you hold down the left mouse button and then release it you do a normal attack.
- if you left-click you do a normal attack.
- if you hold down the LMB, release it, and then click again within a half-second you do a secondary attack.
- if you double-click you do a secondary attack.

That also opens up the possibility of repeating that system with the right mouse button, which could open the door for grappling, shield-hooks, or even dodging.  Actually, no.  If you're blocking with a weapon, sometimes you need to click that fast just to defend yourself.  Doing a random shoulder roll in such situations would be annoying.
 
The idea with that double click system would be cool! Maybe the feats (discussed in other topic) would add beter secondary attacks. Like you start with hit direction right but once you click second time the attack direction chances. Would be effective, but that feat should need agility 20+ or something and maybe there could be a chance of failing in the hit.
 
I would prefer using a modifier key like F or SHIFT, instead of double-clicking. But then again, that's what an options menu is for.  :smile:
 
jeansberg said:
I would prefer using a modifier key like F or SHIFT, instead of double-clicking. But then again, that's what an options menu is for.  :smile:
Yes, so would I.  As I said, I like Z or CTRL since they're convenient and currently unused in combat mode.  But that *is* what the config menu is for.

I just realized that this could lead to better boxing animations.  Since the shield bash would lead to left arm attack animation, without the shield it would look a lot like a left jab.  (and if we're really lucky, we might get a left hook animation too!  Say, out of the high guard.)  Animations like those would make using one-handed weapons without shields MUCH more interesting.  :eek:


I'm (kinda) sorry to say that the most suggested idea isn't (easily) supported with this system, and that's dual weilding.  Unlike shield/hand-to-hand, which could and do use the same animation; for two weapon combat to look good it would take -at the least- yet another new set of left-hand animations.  More likely, it would require entirely new "on guard positons".  I can draw those positions and the attacks that would follow, but... *shrug*
On the other hand, with a left hand attack animated at all, and with shields that have a damage rating, it would make it infinitely easier for modders to make a sword, call it a shield, and give it respectable damage.


(edit: to my chagrin, I just realized that this thread wasn't in the Privy Council area, where it ought to be -and where I *thought* I had put it.  If anyone actually cares: Oooops!)
 
As always your ideas are well thoguht out, and while I doubt I have been your most ardent supporter previously, this one I REALLY like!

If the animation can be done ('will be done?' is more the question I think), then it is a natural thing to add a 'secondary attack' key. Like you I prefer a key rather than use my blocking mousebutton (which I suppose I will need that much more readily). Wouldn't want a situation where I want to block but attemps a pommelwhip.

In regardsto the damagetypes I think a lot of care should be taken. Blunt weapons are already a fairly underused, I wouldn't like to see that we can just abandon the Heavy Spiked Mace and bludgeon the enemy with the pommel instead.
Perhaps these secondary attacks should not only be weaker but also lose the 'piercing' effect of the blunt weapons (you know the ½ armour effect). I have a really hard time seeing a strike with a spearshaft being able to do much to a heavily armoured man (certainly not his armour). Yet that is possible with even fairly weak blunt weapons (which I accept and like in fact), but shouldn't be possible with secondary attacks.
 
Destichado said:
(edit: to my chagrin, I just realized that this thread wasn't in the Privy Council area, where it ought to be -and where I *thought* I had put it.  If anyone actually cares: Oooops!)
I'm pretty sure a mod moved it, as I was under the impression that you cannot create a thread in the Court.
 
Merentha said:
Destichado said:
(edit: to my chagrin, I just realized that this thread wasn't in the Privy Council area, where it ought to be -and where I *thought* I had put it.  If anyone actually cares: Oooops!)
I'm pretty sure a mod moved it, as I was under the impression that you cannot create a thread in the Court.
Correct. Any ideas that are relatively new and somewhat feasible get moved out of the Privy Council into this main area, for more serious consideration. This one qualified.
 
The pommelstrike on the longsword seems somewhat awkward.  Is it following the slash, or simply an alternative strike from the same starting position?  That said, this seems to easily be the best way to implement shieldbashing and several more attacks.
 
Merentha said:
The pommelstrike on the longsword seems somewhat awkward.  Is it following the slash, or simply an alternative strike from the same starting position?  That said, this seems to easily be the best way to implement shieldbashing and several more attacks.

By the way I interpret the drawings, it appear to start from the same starting position as the sword, though with the grip switched about for short-range. As for a pommel strike, wouldn't it make sense to do that the other way - left to right? I can't get the same power with my swings this way; what's your secret? (The left-right cut animation would be 'easily' converted into a pommel-bash, I think, by the way)

Awesome suggestions, neat presentation; get a beat to this and we can dance :wink:
 
Well actually admins, this idea with a comparable presentation has already been suggested before, not a long time ago. :roll:
But I definately find it a good idea.
 
To clarify, for Easybreath and Merentha. 

Actually, the shoulders should be much more rotated in (A), but if I drew it that way, you couldn't see much of anything.  :???:  "Thou shalt not turn thy back to thy audiance" is just as true for drawings as it is for stage, sorry to say.

secondary_attacks2.jpg


I was going to go ahead and take pictures for examples instead, but all the hassle of hauling out the tripod, grabbing all the weapons I'd need, taking two or three dozen pictures and assembling them all into a collage in Photoshop just... ehn.  didn't seem worth it.  You know?  :neutral:
 
Cool, thanks for the clarification.  Okay, I like the suggestion.

Possible secondary attacks, for two-handers:
High : a kick
Left or right: the pommel strikes.
Stab : This one is a bit harder.  Two ideas:  one, step into a hangen (or is it hengen?) , which could potentially activate a block, then pommelstrike downwards.  The second is more specific to swords, where you would grab the blade with your left hand, push up and release with your right, then move the right to the blade and murderstroke.

Polearms:
Various bashes with the shaft, I don't know enough about spear combat to accurately say more.

Shielded one-handers:
Bashes, obviously. 
 
Oh dear.  :smile:

I guess I'll go ahead and take those pictures tomorrow.  :lol:  I *think* I have examples of most M&B weapons... 
 
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