if i may ask you,dont show pictures with armour that is not in da mod please,its from rus13th century.we dont like to have people confused or get raped by admins for using models without permissionHalgrim said:scene in the snow on a background of trees looks very nice.
in game
SCRIPTORIUM AMANUENSIS - 1257 AD Artworks
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First off - awesome work!
I can help with Bulgaria (f.e. the battle of Klokotnitsa, 1230 - Bulgarians and Cumans vs. Epirotes and Western mercenaries (you can check my E1200 reference pics too - the difference in equipment is minimal, only maces became more popular (or the pages around Klokotnitsa's here))), but for Serbia... I'll ask around - there are many Serbs here and on the TWC who might be able to help. I don't think there would be much of a difference though...F.F.C._fritz said:By the way, I know there are a lot of history buffs from the Balkans too playing this game, so I'd like to ask you if you could help me with information and, most wanted, archaeological and visual medieval sources for the Serbs' troop tree. If possible, name me an event (a battle, maybe) between 1230-65. The only sources I could find of medieval Serbs is a very generic Osprey book on Hungary and nearby regions. I know about an obvious strong byzantine influence, but if you know more, share!
Sticking something into the ground and the slashing with it an enemy increases the chances of an infection! (dunno if they did that with swords, perhaps they did not knew it back then ).
Tho for gossip purposes, didn't some nomads like to stick there swords into horse poop before battle, for the same infection reason
).Tho for gossip purposes, didn't some nomads like to stick there swords into horse poop before battle, for the same infection reason
NikeBG said:First off - awesome work!
I can help with Bulgaria (f.e. the battle of Klokotnitsa, 1230 - Bulgarians and Cumans vs. Epirotes and Western mercenaries (you can check my E1200 reference pics too - the difference in equipment is minimal, only maces became more popular (or the pages around Klokotnitsa's here))), but for Serbia... I'll ask around - there are many Serbs here and on the TWC who might be able to help. I don't think there would be much of a difference though...F.F.C._fritz said:By the way, I know there are a lot of history buffs from the Balkans too playing this game, so I'd like to ask you if you could help me with information and, most wanted, archaeological and visual medieval sources for the Serbs' troop tree. If possible, name me an event (a battle, maybe) between 1230-65. The only sources I could find of medieval Serbs is a very generic Osprey book on Hungary and nearby regions. I know about an obvious strong byzantine influence, but if you know more, share!
Wow, that's a lot of useful stuff! Thank you very much for the infos!
Only now I reckon Serbia and Bulgaria share the same troop tree - so I can use your stuff serenely.
I'll direct further searching towards Bulgaria as well, maybe I will find infos easier.
For the sword in the ground, tough honestly I know nothing about how to keep a sword, I must say that, in the drawing, the snow is intended to reach the knees of the characters so that the point of the sword is only inside the high snow, not planted into the ground.
DrTomas said:Nope, Bulgars and Serbs are different for a good while nowF.F.C._fritz said:
Oh.
So, do Bulgars have their own troop tree? I'm still basing myself on the info I can find in the threads, but maybe they are becoming bit obsolete.
Yes. Since Serbians where separated into a separate troop tree, they no longer cause havoc here at the forums with there nationalistic uber history anymore.
Who says, you can't win things with terrorism....
Anyways, I'm currently redoing the structure for most of the troops. No more any wacky stupid troop tree designs, that made me have nightmares. Everything is remade into pragmatic and optimal fashion now.... Tho a new troop tree or two is also planed, which will surely give me(and probably Kuauik as well) new nightmares
Who says, you can't win things with terrorism....
Anyways, I'm currently redoing the structure for most of the troops. No more any wacky stupid troop tree designs, that made me have nightmares. Everything is remade into pragmatic and optimal fashion now.... Tho a new troop tree or two is also planed, which will surely give me(and probably Kuauik as well) new nightmares
If we're to be historically accurate, there are no Bulgars in 1257 (unless you count the Volga Bulgars under Mongol dominion as Bulgars), only Bulgarians.DrTomas said:Nope, Bulgars and Serbs are different for a good while now
I can help with that, if you want (and if you tell me what you need).F.F.C._fritz said:
Otherwise, I've sent some messages to a few Serbian friends of mine, who are good with history and have some modding experience, and directed them to this thread. Let's hope they have some images as well, because (indeed) I've seen only a few Serbs in the Ospreys (and I don't quite like the style of Ian Heath's books).
I hope you can remake the troop trees for major factions too, specially France and Empire. They are a bit boring now.DrTomas said:Yes. Since Serbians where separated into a separate troop tree, they no longer cause havoc here at the forums with there nationalistic uber history anymore.
Who says, you can't win things with terrorism....
Anyways, I'm currently redoing the structure for most of the troops. No more any wacky stupid troop tree designs, that made me have nightmares. Everything is remade into pragmatic and optimal fashion now.... Tho a new troop tree or two is also planed, which will surely give me(and probably Kuauik as well) new nightmares
pizza delivery boy as ranged cavalry unit?
This way Italian states can conquer the world
This way Italian states can conquer the world
DrTomas said:
Great! So a drawing for iberians will come as well
MihailoSRB
Seek no further!F.F.C._fritz said:By the way, I know there are a lot of history buffs from the Balkans too playing this game, so I'd like to ask you if you could help me with information and, most wanted, archaeological and visual medieval sources for the Serbs' troop tree. If possible, name me an event (a battle, maybe) between 1230-65. The only sources I could find of medieval Serbs is a very generic Osprey book on Hungary and nearby regions. I know about an obvious strong byzantine influence, but if you know more, share!
I will send you a ton of pics of the XIII century Serbian warriors.
Trust me, if NikeBG is a Bulgarian history buff, I am a Serbian buff (but I am much taller and handsomer than Nike, of course), so there will not be anything non-historical on those pics... and if you see a Serbian dragon-rider on some pic, it also means it's true.
Now, jokes aside, I will send those pics to you tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
Thank you Mihailo, I'm looking forward to see your stuff and work on it!
Especially the serbian dragon riders
Especially the serbian dragon riders
phoenix[illusion]
Recruit
hello guys! nikeBG told me to help you out with serbian troops
first of all, i can say that troops that nike posted for bulgarians can fit serbians too, it's typical byzantine type of dressing, although i have to put some commentaries on serbian cultural influences, so as troop influences.
as for period (1257) it's the most boring in serbian history. reign of stephen urosh I nemanjic was the longest and most idle. he was a bit forgotten in serbian history cause he was not "man of war". although recorded he had the largest army in serbian medieval history (decades of preparing army for campaign against byz empire), he was scared to do any campaign against byzantine empire, but he's reign made structure of future serbia, and his son's, milutin.
Cultural influences
serbia was in cultural influence of byzantine empire, but also western europe. what describes serbia in middle ages is this sentence: "The Serbian army was feudal in nature, though its system of military landholding was inherited from the Byzantine pronoia rather than the Western European fief. "
serbians were on border of two dominant culture. being orthodox, and interest pointed toward byz empire made their basic cultural influence by byz empire. many court titles were taken from byz empire, so as dressing of kings. but having ragusa as trade city of venice, and being in allied relationship with normans, so as hostility toward hungary, they also took western cultural influence. here's the map i made, blue is western culture and red is byz culture influence, they both appear in medieval serbia, although byz culture was more dominant.
for following development of serbia and serbian army, our best example are monasteries and churches. i will quote description of djurdjevi stupovi monastery:
". The architecture of the Saint George Pillars Monastery is very characteristic representing unique synthesis of two medieval construction concepts, Byzantine in the East and Roman in the West"
"The combination of Byzantine spatial arrangement and Roman architecture resulted in original symbiosis that has been the ground for special architectural style"
so, following architecture of sebia, we can see clash of both influences, making serbian architecture unique and distinguished from other's, in those periods called Rascian style of architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascian_architecture)
this can be seen through monasteries like zica, basic structure is byzantine:
but the details of zica monastery are done in western romanesque
same goes for monastery studenica
basic structure byzantine style
and details on studenica, which resembles western romanesque
why is this important? cause it can tell us a lot about cultural influence in other thing like army of serbia, which will i put pics of.
Army of Serbia in mid 13th century
here are some drawings of monastery paintings with commentaries that will help you for sure
to be continued...
first of all, i can say that troops that nike posted for bulgarians can fit serbians too, it's typical byzantine type of dressing, although i have to put some commentaries on serbian cultural influences, so as troop influences.
as for period (1257) it's the most boring in serbian history. reign of stephen urosh I nemanjic was the longest and most idle. he was a bit forgotten in serbian history cause he was not "man of war". although recorded he had the largest army in serbian medieval history (decades of preparing army for campaign against byz empire), he was scared to do any campaign against byzantine empire, but he's reign made structure of future serbia, and his son's, milutin.
Cultural influences
serbia was in cultural influence of byzantine empire, but also western europe. what describes serbia in middle ages is this sentence: "The Serbian army was feudal in nature, though its system of military landholding was inherited from the Byzantine pronoia rather than the Western European fief. "
serbians were on border of two dominant culture. being orthodox, and interest pointed toward byz empire made their basic cultural influence by byz empire. many court titles were taken from byz empire, so as dressing of kings. but having ragusa as trade city of venice, and being in allied relationship with normans, so as hostility toward hungary, they also took western cultural influence. here's the map i made, blue is western culture and red is byz culture influence, they both appear in medieval serbia, although byz culture was more dominant.
for following development of serbia and serbian army, our best example are monasteries and churches. i will quote description of djurdjevi stupovi monastery:
". The architecture of the Saint George Pillars Monastery is very characteristic representing unique synthesis of two medieval construction concepts, Byzantine in the East and Roman in the West"
"The combination of Byzantine spatial arrangement and Roman architecture resulted in original symbiosis that has been the ground for special architectural style"
so, following architecture of sebia, we can see clash of both influences, making serbian architecture unique and distinguished from other's, in those periods called Rascian style of architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascian_architecture)
this can be seen through monasteries like zica, basic structure is byzantine:
but the details of zica monastery are done in western romanesque
same goes for monastery studenica
basic structure byzantine style
and details on studenica, which resembles western romanesque
why is this important? cause it can tell us a lot about cultural influence in other thing like army of serbia, which will i put pics of.
Army of Serbia in mid 13th century
here are some drawings of monastery paintings with commentaries that will help you for sure
to be continued...
phoenix[illusion]
Recruit
so to continue with my post
Helmets
main differences of serbian army and rest of byz influenced armies were helmets. most of the helmets were imported from dubrovnik, and venice, so there's no wonder why serbs had chapelle de fleur (kettle hat) helmets. chapelle de fleur helmets are the mostly seen helmets on serbian frescoes, but not only one. many of the helmets are two pieced byzantine style helmets, and regular round helmets with metal decoration on top of them (can be seen in osprey, check that 14th century guy, and his helmet http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2/153035_53861027_Corel1.jpg)
some of the kettle helmet to be used
two piece byz helmet
and decoration of helmets, it was either decoration with feathers (serbs with feathers on helmets or caps are described in ottoman times, and it is written that it's long tradition before ottomans. same thing can be seen on frescoes, also similar thing can be seen on neighbor bosnia coins) or metal bent decorations
Helmets
main differences of serbian army and rest of byz influenced armies were helmets. most of the helmets were imported from dubrovnik, and venice, so there's no wonder why serbs had chapelle de fleur (kettle hat) helmets. chapelle de fleur helmets are the mostly seen helmets on serbian frescoes, but not only one. many of the helmets are two pieced byzantine style helmets, and regular round helmets with metal decoration on top of them (can be seen in osprey, check that 14th century guy, and his helmet http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2/153035_53861027_Corel1.jpg)
some of the kettle helmet to be used
two piece byz helmet
and decoration of helmets, it was either decoration with feathers (serbs with feathers on helmets or caps are described in ottoman times, and it is written that it's long tradition before ottomans. same thing can be seen on frescoes, also similar thing can be seen on neighbor bosnia coins) or metal bent decorations
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