Scandinavian Factions (Denmark, Norway, Sweden)

[Amundr]

that looks about right actually they're all Hirðmenn (exept for the gestir, who recieve half a hirðman's wages (but they getspecial looting privileges))

let me see if I can explain this correctly... all servants are húskarls... therefore, all hirðmenn are húskarlar, but not all húskarlar are hirðmenn. Skútilsveinar and kertilsveinar and lendir menn are all hirðmenn AND húskarlar... it's all very complicated just remember that Húskarl is NOT an elite troop type, and you'll be fine. Since the Icelandic Sagas refer to húskarlar in a "derogatory" way, as simple farmhands, I vote for making them the second tier, after kotkarl.

So húskarl between kotkarl and Bónda then ?
Should we use Hirðmenn as a unit type at all ? seems they are just a class and noone is "just" Hirð.

at least this is how I've understood it when it's been explained to me, and we're re-enacting norwegian Hirðmenn anno 1260 (but we're all infantry)

pictures can be found here:

www.kongshirden.no

Awesome. Grew up re-enacting the viking age myself.
Which is why i know a little, but not specifically this particular time period.
Seems like your very well positioned to know exactly what we need though!

 

[Aule_the_creator]

Where are you re-enacting the viking age? with what group?
h
I suppose we could drop the title "Hirðmaður" all together, but we ARE sorely lacking in names. Kotkarl, húskarl, leiðangsmaður and Bóndi all work (although bóndi is more the character himself), so does hermaður, for cavalry we have skútilsveinn, kertilsveinn, and lendur maður, býjarmaður for townsman, but we really need more "elite" names for the infantry, what comes after the leiðangsmaður in the infantry tree? (or bóndi, if we decide to use that), I suggested Gestir for the shock-troops, but I'm at a loss for what to call the spearmen and the swordsmen. I suggested Hirðmenn for the swordsmenn, since carrying a sword implies some wealth and eliteness, and they're recruited in towns, and so don't become hirðmenn from kotkarl, but from býjarmaður...

I think it's about time I get my hands on the saga closest to our period, Sverra saga, I think, and go through that.

 

[Amundr]

Where are you re-enacting the viking age? with what group?

Did as i grew up, not as active atm.
Long story and not the right place for it though so pm me if you want to know.

I suppose we could drop the title "Hirðmaður" all together, but we ARE sorely lacking in names. Kotkarl, húskarl, leiðangsmaður and Bóndi all work (although bóndi is more the character himself), so does hermaður, for cavalry we have skútilsveinn, kertilsveinn, and lendur maður, býjarmaður for townsman, but we really need more "elite" names for the infantry, what comes after the leiðangsmaður in the infantry tree? (or bóndi, if we decide to use that), I suggested Gestir for the shock-troops, but I'm at a loss for what to call the spearmen and the swordsmen. I suggested Hirðmenn for the swordsmenn, since carrying a sword implies some wealth and eliteness, and they're recruited in towns, and so don't become hirðmenn from kotkarl, but from býjarmaður...

I suppose we could just use it. Wouldnt be as accurate, but i agree we need alot of names we dont currently have.
No idea about elite names but i agree Hirðmaður do fit with swords.
I suppose some of the general titles can be used for the most part but as othr did; put the weapon name in front.
Might not work well for the top of the tree though, should be a special unit there but i wouldnt know what to use.

I think it's about time I get my hands on the saga closest to our period, Sverra saga, I think, and go through that.

I wish the last three books of Toræus Norges Historie would come out soon. Think they would fit the time well.

 

[Aule_the_creator]

how about we just scrap the silly troop-tree idea for scandinavia all together In cities you recruit Gestir (billmen with acetons) and Hirðmenn (armoured swordsmen) of a random number, and in villages you recruit leiðángsmenn, who are approximately what spearmen are now. In castles you recruit knights... (skútilsveinn)... no hassle, no deviation, just pure historical accuracy... ah! *eyes glaze over in dreamy bliss*
AND, let's not forget!
*read with russian accent* "In medieval Scandinavia, companions find you!"

 

[Dennis The Great]

I have a request, Denmark got a new flag in the battle of Lyndanisse (now Tallin in Estland) in the year 1219 date 15/7, the new flag called Dannebrog - http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dannebrog#Historie

Please make this in the game

Historical picture, the battle of Lyndanisse

 

[Amundr]

how about we just scrap the silly troop-tree idea for scandinavia all together In cities you recruit Gestir (billmen with acetons) and Hirðmenn (armoured swordsmen) of a random number, and in villages you recruit leiðángsmenn, who are approximately what spearmen are now. In castles you recruit knights... (skútilsveinn)... no hassle, no deviation, just pure historical accuracy... ah! *eyes glaze over in dreamy bliss*

Haha. 
Well i do think we should have some sort of progression for units.
Im convinced that even if you started out with the crap equipment you could afford, you would after a few battles have enough money to get some better equipment.
Same thing with experience. If you survived a few battles you'd learn alot.
If you would go from Kotkarl to specialized spearman i dont know.
But im sure even you have better equipment and are more experienced as a infantryman that when you started, right ? 

Problem is we have few names for the infantry and archer tree and few names for battle function.
We could use one of those "Lord thisandthat fielded 30 spearmen 40 crossbowmen and 20 swordsmen" books, but im not sure we have any.
Gestir could perhaps be at the top of the axemen tree.

 

[Aule_the_creator]

true, this is very hard isn't it

unfortunately the heimskringla is never that specific, it usually just says that king this and that had so and so many ships of this and that size (tvitugsessa, þrítugsessa), and mentions maybe what the prominent people are using (Go Einar Þambarskelfir!).

 

[Amundr]

unfortunately the heimskringla is never that specific, it usually just says that king this and that had so and so many ships of this and that size (tvitugsessa, þrítugsessa), and mentions maybe what the prominent people are using (Go Einar Þambarskelfir!).

Yup, too fixated on the important people.

If we go with Hirðmenn and Gestir at the top of swordsmen and axemen trees respectively, then we just need something for spearmen.
Any thoughts ? 

 

[Aule_the_creator]

If we can convince him to shorten the trees down to 4 tiers instead of 6, then I suggest these two infantry trees (f** the archers for a moment)

Kotkarl
/
Húskarl
/                                        \
Leiðangsmaður (with spears)  Gestur (with a big axe)
/                                      \
Vopnaður Leiðangsmaður    Vopnaður Gestur

Býjarmaður
/
Hermaður
/
Hirðmaður
/
Vopnaður Hirðmaður

The adjective "Vopnaður" means "armed", I've seen acetons called "höfuðvápn til hlífðar" I.E. main weapon for protection.

with an 4 stage troop tree only, we've got this for cavalry too:

(name for 1st tier cavalry here)
/
Kertilsveinn (squire)
/
Skútilsveinn ("knight")
/
Lendur Maður (Baron)

what do you guys think?

 

[Amundr]

Using armed makes me think the other version is unarmed though!

Could perhaps move the entire cavalry tree down a peg then add merkismaðr and/or stallari.
I suppose Riddar also if we don't care about accuracy and need an extra name.

Bónda could be added to the infantry tree to get it up to 5 aswell.

Btw ive been using the spelling i found in the skuggsjá but i see we use different spellings even you and me.
Don't know which one is most correct though. 

 

[Amundr]

Also i feel like we have maybe taken this thing over.
Whats your thoughts Skandinav on names and titles ?
Perhaps we need to do some work to find names that fit all three factions.

 

[Aule_the_creator]

ok, I'm using the phonetic standardised spelling I've added -ur instead of just r, and I use ö instead of "o með kvisti"

how does the skuggsjá spell things?

Skandinav would prefer danish names, as far as I can tell, but we need a contemporary danish source for that, do you know of any? I don't, and Skandinav is just using modern danish translations... I'm open to suggestions though

but I'm sorta hoping we can cut it down to 4 tiers of troops, because I feel that the peasants and footmen are useless, they don't really become useable until the third tier anyway. so we might just as well remove the 1st and 2nd tier but those are just my thoughts

 

[Amundr]

ok, I'm using the phonetic standardised spelling I've added -ur instead of just r, and I use ö instead of "o með kvisti"

how does the skuggsjá spell things?

Well what i wrote here http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,107646.msg2663719.html#msg2663719 is how i found it.
The skuggsjá i used is here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=LgtIfLwQgX4C&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Skandinav would prefer danish names, as far as I can tell, but we need a contemporary danish source for that, do you know of any? I don't, and Skandinav is just using modern danish translations... I'm open to suggestions though

Well i dont know any. : / Maybe he will find one though.
He also might have some thoughts on this generally speaking though so id still love to hear his thoughts.

but I'm sorta hoping we can cut it down to 4 tiers of troops, because I feel that the peasants and footmen are useless, they don't really become useable until the third tier anyway. so we might just as well remove the 1st and 2nd tier but those are just my thoughts

Understood. But if he cuts it to 5 or leaves it we can use the names ive suggested atleast.
I also dont like the armed bit as much. Maybe remove the one before and add just the weapon and men like spjótmadr etc below the top unit.
What about cavalry ? Move everything down a peg and add one of the suggestions/some other name or find something below kertilsvein ?
Also for the (i know doesnt fit) one leading the armies on raids maby stallari ?

 

[Aule_the_creator]

actually, it does fit, Stallari = Marshall

I'd love to hear Skandinav's input as well.

I suppose Spjótmaður works, but it's more like a direct translations of "Spearman"... archer is a military "profession", but "hi, I'm a spearman in the kings army" just doesn't sound right for me Then I'd rather we stuck Bóndi in there. I think Leiðangsmaður is probably the best name for the spearman, and we can use another adjective for armoured.

I'm all for adding something above Lendur Maður, or below Kertilsveinn, but I can't think of anything... it's too late at night... I'll brainstorm on it, and trawl through skuggsjá tomorrow or on monday.

 

[Amundr]

actually, it does fit, Stallari = Marshall

Well yeah i know the name fit. Just not sure about someone other than the king leading the armies while the king follows like a lapdog. 

I suppose Spjótmaður works, but it's more like a direct translations of "Spearman"... archer is a military "profession", but "hi, I'm a spearman in the kings army" just doesn't sound right for me Then I'd rather we stuck Bóndi in there. I think Leiðangsmaður is probably the best name for the spearman, and we can use another adjective for armoured.

Fair enough. Id rather we didn't have the same name repeating though.
We haven't even talked about the archer tree.

 

[othr]

I'm uploading 0.9 so please take a look at the trees, see if I  made any mistakes in the infantry tree.  Also if you can look at the ranged and nobility trees to see if those need tweaking!

 

[Amundr]

I'm uploading 0.9 so please take a look at the trees, see if I  made any mistakes in the infantry tree.  Also if you can look at the ranged and nobility trees to see if those need tweaking!

Ill check it out.
Any way to see the whole tree without needing to go through the whole upgrade path ?

 

[Skandinav]

Don't worry Amundr, I am always outspoken when I have something on mind. The only reason for my current lack of engagement is that I, with full job, exams coming up ( and other RL phenomena ), plus heavy involvement in the Einherjar clan, simply don't have the time to go through the original sources as of now. I have just today ordered copies of the most important of these, for me to ( re )study when I have finished my exams, and have more time on my hands. I might have a bit to add then.

And Aule, you get me wrong in regards to me supposedly prefering Danish names, this is not at all what I want. Please do not think, if you do, that I did not include your Old Norse translations in my mini mod for any reason beyond me prioritizing my limited free time to WB instead of M&B, and because many of the questions you raised required ( very ) lenghty explanations ( for example the role of a styrismand, and the relation between høvedsmand, hirdmand and herremand, the different use of svend in Denmark etc. ) which I hope we will find ample opportunity to discuss another time.
And I could, of course, find some unit names in olddansk ( I know of a few in Jyskelov for example, but probably fewer than the Norwegian sources as some of the best we have is regrettably Saxo's work in latin ), but the reason for me not to do this originally, and go for modern translations ( though some of these are pretty close ) was that the sources differ in spelling ( though the solution would be, naturally, just to settle on one ), and more importantly was my initial wish for consistency; that no other factions in 1257ed spelled much, if anything, in a language contemporary to the mod, and so neither would I.
Making a mod with historically accurate equipment was also my first priority, I only began sketching out some names because the original ones were so terrible.

But I have always supported using West Norse unit names and titles ( despite them being different from their Danish counterparts ), as I have written earlier the sources are very explicit in this regard, and the work you've hitherto done here seem very sensible, so I am fully in favour of the list Aule posted a few posts up.


@othr, sounds good, I am looking forward to it.

 

[Amundr]

The current scandinavian troop as found in 0.9

Village.
kotkarl - huskarl - veiðamaður      - bogamaður - veteran bogamaður - höfðingi bogamaður
                          - leiðangsmaður - spjótmaður - veteran spjótmaður - sergeant spjótmaður
                                                    - gestur        - veteran gestur        - sergeant gestur
City.
Byjarmenn - hermaður - stað veiðamaður - lasbogamaður - veteran lasbogamaður - höfðingi lasbogamaður
                                    - buandkarl          - hirdmaður        - veteran hirdmaður      - sergeant hirdmaður

Castle.
kertilsveinr - hirðmenn - skutilsveinr - riddarar - lenðirmaður

 

[Amundr]

First issue i see is that there's two hirdmaður, one in the city tree and one hirðmenn in the castle/cavalry tree.