Scandinavian Factions (Denmark, Norway, Sweden)

[Skandinav]

Good day, othr, congratulations on your own subforum, it is well-deserved.

I have been testing out 0.8 with Denmark a lot lately, here are some observations ( and sorry if you are aware of many of these things already, I thought I might mention them anyway ) :

*Less beards for the Danes, and the Scandinavian factions in general, if possible. Historically, full beards wasn't used much in this age ( not even in the Viking Age ), and should mostly be seen among lower quality troops. Most other units should be clean-shaven or have the occasional moustache. Short hair was also pretty common.

*Add more spears to the three lowest tier troops, if possible, I know Aule also suggested this at one point.

*Lower-tier troops who have kite shields should have less of these. I only added so many because I had but two different kinds of heater shields in the original 1257 mod, the Sword Brothers' ( bearing their symbol ), and a high quality shield only fit for my higher-tier troops. Heater shields was the norm in Scandinavia at the time, so only the two lowest types of infantry ( peasants and militia ) should have a few kite-shaped mixed with proper heater shields.

*I know you haven't finished the Scandinavian troop trees yet, but when you do I would recommend entirely new upgrade paths, branching in three directions, one for each troop type, ie. cav, inf, ranged,

*There is currently a unit that upgrades to itself, "Sveinner" to "Svend". "Svend" is just the name I used in the original version of my mini mod before Aule translated it.

*Perhaps change all the names of the Danish units back to what they were in my mod ( until I, or someone else, makes some new ones ), and then just keep the current from Danish to Old Norse translations with the Norwegian and Swedish factions until they get their own roster names, as the only reason for the Old Norse translation was that in the original 1257 ed all three Scandinavian countries were one faction.

*Danish Squires and Knights have no horses.

*Sea raiders are far too viking-ish to be realistic for the 13th century, hardly anyone at that time would use 300-years old equipment, and for a historical mod it is a real immersion breaker I think. So, if you find the time, please remove all Viking Age equipment completely ( meaning armor and helmets, most of the weapons were still used ). Making them look a bit like the militia and warriors of the Scandinavian factions wouldn't be far off.

*Northern Europe is swarming with Sea Raiders, and while this is historically accurate to some degree, it seems a bit too much compared to the rest of the world map.

*I see you are able to use diacritic letters and symbols now ( æ, ø, å, ä  and such ), so we could actually have the names of the Danish cities in Danish. Copenhagen would then be København, Birkered - Birkerød , Arhus - Århus, Skäbäk - Skærbæk ( though this should be Ribe instead, a much more important city near Skærbæk.

*I wonder where you found the names for the Danish cities, towns and castles, since some of these wouldn't be my obvious choices if I should find important spots in medieval Denmark ?

*The name of the king is wrong. At this time in the 13th century the king of Denmark was Chistoffer the 1st, but his reign only lasted to 1259, where Erik the 5th took over, also known as Erik Klipping, a very famous Danish king, so I would recommend naming the Danish king Erik Klipping.

*I was also thinking that, preferably, and if time permits, all factions in the game should have historical characters among their lords ( most importantly ) and ladies, and also correct titles instead of simply the generic "Lord". But more importantly, at least names common in the that period. The Danish lords, or høvedsmænd, are all named with names from the Viking Age.
Here is a list of names that could be of use for these nobles ( all historical personae around king Erik Klipping in the years of the mod ), if you won't use the titles, you could still use the names :

Abbed ( Abbot ) Arnfast
Ærkebiskop ( Archbishop ) Jacob Erlandsen
Erik Abelsøn
Hertug ( Duke ) Valdemar
Margrethe ( the name of a noblewoman )
Hertug ( Duke ) Erik af Jylland
Agnes af Brandenburg ( noblewoman )
Junker Jakob
Drost ( a high-standing official ) Peder
Grev ( Count ) Jakob af Halland
Marsk ( High General ) Stig ( This should be the kings adversary, historically Marsk Stig was famously accused of killing king Erik Klipping in Finderup Lade ).
Ridder ( Knight ) Peder Jakobsen
Ridder ( Knight ) Peder Porse
Ridder ( Knight ) Niels Hallandsfar
Ridder ( Knight ) Niels Knudsen
Væbner ( Squire ) Rane Jonsen
Væbner ( Squire ) Aage Kakke
Væbner ( Squire ) Arved Bengtsen

I beg your pardon if you would rather have had this in the Suggestions thread, I just thought it would be good with a thread for each faction, to discuss and to have a place where people can be more specific in their suggestions.

Thank you for your time

 

[Aule_the_creator]

I don't know if you noticed, skandinav, but I have done a little reading of 13th century east norse (there is literally no difference between 13th century swedish and 13th century danish, and after checking it out, it appears that it's reasonably similar to west norse, just with dh instead of ð, th instead of þ, -er instead of -ur, but the question is if it's worth having two separate troop trees, one for norway, and one for sweden and denmark? Othr decided it would be overkill, since we're talking spelling differences.

so høvedsmand would be incorrect... hövudhsmadher or somesuch would be old east norse (except, again, probably a different word would be used, maybe "lávardher" (lord), or even still Jarl (earl). Old swedish texts can easily be found online if you want to double check my findings.

so then the question is, do we go with the old east norse spelling, because there are two kingdoms who use it, or old west norse spelling, since Norway is the largest and most influential scandinavian kingdom at the time. Only 5 years later, in 1262, when Iceland became part of Norway, Norway covered parts that are now swedish and/or danish, including oppland, and iceland, and greenland, and the faeroe islands, the orkneys, the shetlands, and the isle of man.

 

[othr]

If at all possible I would like to keep to my previous idea of generic troop trees, expanded to regions now.

Central/West Europe - called it the generic tree
Balt tribes - baltic tree
Mongols - mongol
Eastern - Novgorod
nordic - Scandinavia

So it would definitely be preferable to have a common troop tree for the 3 Nordic factions.

 

[Skandinav]

Yes, the difference in spelling is not that encompassing and it would be overkill to do it differently, I agree of course.

The main problem here is that the Scandinavian kingdoms used different words for the same thing, as seen in, for example, titles.

When I made the Danish unit names I used modern Danish spelling, and it was, and is, very much a work-in-progress, so translating directly from this can only lead us astray.
What we need is a roster with accurate, contemporary unit names and titles, and either one in West Norse or East Norse ( doesn't matter much to me, the choice of words are what is important ), but also settle on some terms that can be used universally in Scandinavia ( or settle on either to keep it consistent ). And while, as you argue Aule, Norway was the most influential kingdom in terms of size and colonies, it can be said that Denmark and Sweden were quite influential and engaged in European affairs, where this mod actually plays out ( though also featuring the British Isles ). But that said, it is possibly easier for us to find appropriate terms in West Norse, as the Norrøne sources seem more explicit in this regard.

Concerning Old Swedish, is there even such a language in the 13th century, I've always thought it remained Donsk Tunga to some point in the early 14th century ?

 

[Amundr]

Im not sure they should be combined into one faction tree.
One thing is the name and language problem but to me it seems theres a big difference in social and rank structure.
I might be wrong though, or it might just a part of me wanting my own work to be used.

 

[othr]

I really need your help with this tree.  This is what I came up with and I'm 100% sure it's not satisfactory.  I need to pack units together based on the weapon type they use as this will be crucial later on for battle AI and tactics.  It's important to know what the unit will have so I can develop some strategy for it.

So just take a look at this 'thing' and help me come up with something that will fit into the structure and be as historically correct as possible.  The spelling is off as well, just ignore it for now if you can.

Basic layout for each faction for the infantry tree is:
            shield wall for defending other vulnerable units from ranged fire (the generic swordsman)
            spear equipped troops for defending against cavalry attacks (the generic spearman)
            polearm equipped troops, shock troops for breaking the shield wall (billman, axeman etc)

This is the basic idea and that's why I have these 3 branches.  The AI will attempt to use the spearmen against cavalry attacks, shield archers and billmen.  If the opposing force is light on cavalry swordsmen will advance and cover the billmen, when close the billmen will engage and attempt to break the shield wall and then take out the spearmen at which point the cavalry charge will commence.  This is just an idea for now on how battles should be fought, I haven't gotten to that part yet as I'm bogged down by these troop trees and warband vs m&b incompatibilites + module system that's really not up to snuff yet.

And trust me, I can just imagine your faces when you see this


P.S. this i just the footman/commoner tree.

 

[Aule_the_creator]

@ Skandinav, depends on who you ask, really. Icelandic sources refer to it as "dönsk túnga", but I doubt the swedes would have called their language that

It is unknown what an Atgeir actually is Most likely it's a hewing spear, but it's definately not a bill, Gunnar threw his atgeir at a person, it cleft his shield, and then killed the person behind it. I'd rather make them axe wielders in scandinavia (with the lovely polearm axes warband has given us), still completely historical for the period if we're talking weapons for breaking shieldwalls, always, of course, with shields on their backs/shoulders (very historical, many depictions depict polearm warriors with shields on their shoulders). Also, would Glaives fall under the "spear" category? do spearmen randomly spawn with either a spear and a shield, or a 2h polearm like a military scythe, or a glaive, or a "pike"/2h spear, or are they only 1h spear + shield type of warriors?

and, honestly, I just love that you picked "kotkarl" it's a REALLY derogative term for "peasant" in saga litterature

but, I've used the search function on http://www.snerpa.is/net/isl/isl.htm in Gisla saga, and Grettis saga, and Húskarl is always used as "workman", and they do menial tasks:

"Sá maður var með Þorbirni öxnamegin er Áli hét. Hann var húskarl og heldur ógæfur og vinnulítill. Þorbjörn bað hann starfa betur ella kveðst hann mundu lemja hann. Áli kvað þess öngan fýst hafa og var hinn kífnasti í móti. Þorbjörn þoldi honum eigi og rak hann niður undir sig og fór með hann illa.

Eftir það fór Áli brott úr vistinni og fór norður yfir háls til Miðfjarðar. Létti eigi fyrr en hann kom til Bjargs. Atli var heima og spurði hvert hann skyldi fara. Hann kvaðst leita sér vistar.

"Ertu eigi vinnumaður Þorbjarnar?" kvað Atli. "

from Grettir's saga

basically, Áli was a Húskarl of Þorbjörn öxnamegin, but he was unlucky and lazy. þorbjörn asked him to work better, or he would beat him. Áli didn't want to, and was stubborn, and Þorbjörn then beat him bloody. He left his service and went to Bjarg in Midfjord. Atli was home, and asked him were he was going. He said I was looking for work. and Atli replied:

"are you not Þorbjörns workman?"

they also get in all sorts of menial fights, two húskarls hew at each other with scythes while working in a field, because they couldn't agree on the shared workload... a húskarl tried to kill Grettir, because neither of them would let go of something each thought was their own. 8 húskarls were ordered to follow Grettir and help him fight berserks, 4 of them took to arms, while 4 chickened out and stayed home, but the 4 who took arms arrived late to the fight, because they couldn't agree on who should wield what weapon.

Húskarls are workmen on a farm, while the Bóndi is the "farmer", the guy who owns the farm. Húskarlar are more numerous, and worse equipped than their masters

so my humble suggestions are:

Kotkarl (pl. Kotkarlar) (old poor serfs in cottages, who have no huskarls of their own)
Huskarl (pl Huskarlar) (workmen)
Leidhangsmadhur (pl leidhangsmenn) (levy troop)
spjotmadhur (pl spjotmenn) (spearman, and then add an adjective similar to what you've been using already for the next stages of the tree)
Gestur (pl Gestir) (as the axeman unit, because the guests are plain evil bastards, perfect for shock troops IMHO)

Býjarmadhur (pl Býjarmenn) (townsman)
hermadhur (pl hermenn) (soldier)
Búandkarl (pl. Búandkarlar) (another word for Bóndi, but I think it matches this troop tree better than the other one, because the sword is the rich mans weapon, and they're not recruited anyway, they just upgrade to this unit)
Hirdhmadhur (pl Hirdhmenn) (as the swordsman unit, since they're recruited in towns, and they'd usually come find the king to offer him their services)

honestly though, I think we still have a troop tree that's too, well... long, but I'll start a separate thread on the subject, because it's off topic for this post.

 

[Amundr]

Im afraid most of these are my fault aule. 
I trawled trough a gammelnorsk version of Kongespeilet looking for words that could be used and only had a english version to compare it to.

I suggested kotkarl instead of þræll since i think the father uses it to denote the lowest of the low, and i didt think þræll fit at the bottom of the troop tree very well. Think the english version used cotter as a translation.

I suggested Atgeir might be used(though didnt know if it fit the time and suggested you take a look at it) for glaive/bill as it isnt a axe nor a spear.

When it comes to Huskarlar i plead guilty as well, i think it mentions that the ranks above still retains the huskarl title. Though i might have misunderstood  it, i suggested it be put between Bændr and the rank above.

It seems this is more your forte though, so feel free to make the final decision.
Heres my posts if you want to take a look at them.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,107646.msg2663719.html#msg2663719
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,107646.msg2674025.html#msg2674025

Looks good though othr.
Might not fit the swedish and danish at the time though.
My impression is that Norway was late when going over to the continental nobility structure some 20 years later.

 

[Aule_the_creator]

the problem with kongspeilet (konúngs skuggsjá) is that it describes the whole "Hirð", and not just the footsoldiers. it's also the workmen, it's the whole royal retinue, including the dishwashers, the stable boys, the cook, the juggler and pretty much everything else you can think of that the king might have with him or working for him at any time. The gestir are the lowest of the low, and recieve half of a hirðman's paycheck, but that's not the fighters, it also includes the stableboys and the cooks The gestir are the lowest of the low, but it's also a purely violence oriented position, and involves traveling the land, and beating up people who won't cough up the dough, and they get to keep any loot they collect OTHER than the taxes. So they're pretty wealthy actually

kotkarl is really derogatory term for serf, while þræll means slave slaves aren't even IN the pecking order, so they wouldn't be mentioned. I was just suggesting norse equivalents for othrs troop tree, I'm loving the kotkarl suggestion xD

 

[Aule_the_creator]

also, as I've previously mentioned, Skutilsveinn = knight, and Lendur Maður = baron, and 1270 something this changed to Riddari and Barón (but just the names, the titles and position was still the same).

 

[Amundr]

the problem with kongspeilet (konúngs skuggsjá) is that it describes the whole "Hirð", and not just the footsoldiers. it's also the workmen, it's the whole royal retinue, including the dishwashers, the stable boys, the cook, the juggler and pretty much everything else you can think of that the king might have with him or working for him at any time.

Fair enough, it was just the first and best source i had at hand to understand the structure and also get the contemporary titles in Gammelnorsk.

also, as I've previously mentioned, Skutilsveinn = knight, and Lendur Maður = baron, and 1270 something this changed to Riddari and Barón (but just the names, the titles and position was still the same).

So no structure or function differences between norway and the rest of scandinavia then.
Fair enough ill bow my head to greater knowledge! 

 

[Aule_the_creator]

I've done a little bit of trawling through the skuggsjá myself once, I wanted to look at what gear one should use, but it's pretty unspecific when it comes to footsoldiers, and I'm not re-enacting a knight, just elite footman.

btw, húskarl is REALLY unspecific too... sometimes it means workman, but sometimes it seems to refer to warriors, but then again, if an icelandic farm owner has a dispute with his neighbour, the only people he has on hand to fight with are his húskarlar, and as far as I've been told, in viking age england, the housecarl was the royal guard of the english king, which is where some of the confusion comes from... Also, húskarl can be everyone who works for you, so gestir and hirdmenn are also húskarlar, but with another fancy title in addition.

I'm just gonna double check what I've written with my friend the history major, who's been re-enacting for a lot longer than me, and get back to you, my "greater knowledge" isn't infallible

and don't be ashamed for going through the konungs skuggsjá, it's totally awesome, and perfect for this timeperiod. Good job!


also, othr, you need to decide, are we using ð and þ, or dh and th? because it matters when we're talking west norse or east norse... if we start mixing the two, it'll just look bad

 

[Skandinav]

I will change the tread title to "The Scandinavian Factions", then we can keep all discussion on these in one place for easy reference.

 

[Temae]

btw, húskarl is REALLY unspecific too... sometimes it means workman, but sometimes it seems to refer to warriors, but then again, if an icelandic farm owner has a dispute with his neighbour, the only people he has on hand to fight with are his húskarlar, and as far as I've been told, in viking age england, the housecarl was the royal guard of the english king, which is where some of the confusion comes from... Also, húskarl can be everyone who works for you, so gestir and hirdmenn are also húskarlar, but with another fancy title in addition.

I have recentlly read a book called something which means "the viking's art of war"
And it says:

隐藏

"Dreng", "Hemtagare" (Hometaker) and "Huskarl" were all viking age words for a warrior capable of bearing arms who stood in a chiefs or kings sevice, and who under early medieval age got the name "Hirdhman"

Maybe you should just call them "Hirdhmæn" instead of "Huskarlar"

 

[Amundr]

We do have Hirðmenn.  They are currently in the Cavalry tree i think.
Huskarl was mostly something to fill out the infantry tree with.

 

[Temae]

Oh, sorry  I didnt know

*I see you are able to use diacritic letters and symbols now ( æ, ø, å, ä  and such ), so we could actually have the names of the Danish cities in Danish. Copenhagen would then be København, Birkered - Birkerød , Arhus - Århus, Skäbäk - Skærbæk ( though this should be Ribe instead, a much more important city near Skærbæk.

Noooo! dont remove Skærbæk!!!
Its the most important place in the world!!! 

隐藏

(because i live there)

 

[Aule_the_creator]

how about Kaupmannahöfn and Árós? "köbenhavn" isn't exactly historical for our period no matter how you look at it xD

anyway, IMHO, Hirðmaður (or Hirdhmadher if we're talking old east norse) should be the top of the line infrantry tree... or the way othr organises things, the swordsmanship tree. we've got titles for the cavalry tree a-plenty. SKútilsveinn is knight, and Lendur Maður is probably the best title above him... for the squire, how about kertilsveinn? it's the rank below skútilsveinn in the skuggsjá. (it means candleboy, while skútilsveinn means tableboy, amusing, right?).

and that book is only half right... húskarl is any workman who's in someone's service. So the stableboy is a húskarl, as is the gestur, and so is the knight, they're all húskarls, but they're not all warriors. See the my references from the saga's for evidence that húskarl is just workman, do some digging through skuggsj+á, and you'll find that they're ALL húskarls, the skutilsveinn and gestir etc etc are just higher ranking, and therefore have their own titles in addition to the general "húskarl"

 

[othr]

also, othr, you need to decide, are we using ð and þ, or dh and th? because it matters when we're talking west norse or east norse... if we start mixing the two, it'll just look bad

Just spell it with ð and þ because I have no knowledge of the language or the spelling and will definitely make many mistakes if given the opportunity.  So don't give me the opportunity, spell it out like you would for a 5-year old

 

[Amundr]

Just a had a quick look at the wikipedia page for Hirðskrá, it says this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirdskraa

§§ 27-42. The text widely regulates the activities and customs of the royal hird and includes lengthy prescriptions of modes of address, how men should be admitted to the hird and how the different religious and logistical positions within the hird are to be given out. It discusses the conduct of the military hird in war and peace and divides the hird into different levels of status, along with the demands of equipment on the different levels. Three main strata may be distinguished:

  1. the hirðmen (sg. hirðmaðr) of the royal household proper, who were themselves hierarchically arranged. After the chancellor (kanceler), who had risen to prominence in the thirteenth century, 
      the top layer was formed by landed men (lendir menn), who acted as the king's councillors. From their ranks were recruited the seneschal (dróttseti), butler (skenkjari), staller or marshall
      (stallari) and standard-bearer (merkismaðr). On a lower level, there were table-servants (skutil-sveinar, lit. 'dish-men'). Some of the names were changed in the reign of Håkon V to more
      continental titles. After 1277, the landed men (lendir menn) came to be named 'barons' (barúnar) and the skutil-sveinar 'knights' (riddari).
  2. candle-men (kerti-sveinar).
  3. the gestir (lit. 'guests'), men from the lower classes who are partly exempt from the hird and function as light infantry, scouts and a sort of secret police.

It might very well be wrong though.(never really know with wikipedia)
Might read through a copy. 

 

[Aule_the_creator]

that looks about right actually they're all Hirðmenn (exept for the gestir, who recieve half a hirðman's wages (but they getspecial looting privileges))

let me see if I can explain this correctly... all servants are húskarls... therefore, all hirðmenn are húskarlar, but not all húskarlar are hirðmenn. Skútilsveinar and kertilsveinar and lendir menn are all hirðmenn AND húskarlar... it's all very complicated just remember that Húskarl is NOT an elite troop type, and you'll be fine. Since the Icelandic Sagas refer to húskarlar in a "derogatory" way, as simple farmhands, I vote for making them the second tier, after kotkarl.

at least this is how I've understood it when it's been explained to me, and we're re-enacting norwegian Hirðmenn anno 1260 (but we're all infantry)

pictures can be found here:

www.kongshirden.no