scale armor

[guspav]

I have wondered about this for a long time but I never remember to post this:
Why does the scale armor use the same mesh as the lamellar armor?
now I know they are technically the same thing but why then are there two armor types so different in stats and identical in looks?

 

[Damien]

Maybe the lamellar is just a placeholder for the future scale armour, or something. And scale armour is not the same as lamellar. They look quite different and are constructed differently. Scale is rivetted in an overlapping-down pattern, while lamellar is laced one to the other in an overlapping-upward pattern.

 

[guspav]

oooh I see, well my question stands then and remains unanswered

 

[Sir Prince]

WHat is lamellar anywyas?

 

[McPa]

Lame armor for lammers.

 

[Damien]

WHat is lamellar anywyas?

Lames of metal, horn, or leather sewn to one another in an overlapping-upward pattern.

 

[The Pope]

Lames are rectangular plates, in case anyone didn't know. Samurai armor would be a form of lamellar.

 

[Damien]

Not necessarily rectangular. They can be triangular, or even circular. But yeah, I probably should have explained the word 'lames.'

 

[Taka]

lamellar armor


Scale armor

Lamellar armor precedes scale armor, though both were used in the middle ages. Early forms of Lamellar were created by the Assyrians, while scale first showed up in the Roman Republic era (ca 510 bce - 52 ad) and was refined up till the era of the Knights Templar (ca 1060 ad). The biggest differences are that lamellar armor ussualy uses rectangular metal plates placed side to side, while scale generaly uses overlapping scale shaped plates. Generaly, scale offers better protection from a sword stroke than lamellar armor.

 

[fisheye]

I have wondered about this for a long time but I never remember to post this:
Why does the scale armor use the same mesh as the lamellar armor?
now I know they are technically the same thing but why then are there two armor types so different in stats and identical in looks?

One time I totally accidentally put on scale armor thinking it was lamellar... was a bit surprised at the damage I got whacked with in battle.

 

[Damien]

Lamellar armor precedes scale armor, though both were used in the middle ages. Early forms of Lamellar were created by the Assyrians, while scale first showed up in the Roman Republic era (ca 510 bce - 52 ad)

Someone is forgetting the New Kingdom Egyptians, who wore scale around the exact same time as the Assyrians were wearing lamellar.


Essentially, lamellar and scale are variations on the same concept and were probably designed at roughly the same time and possibly by the same people. Armours development is extremely hard to trace and it's hard to say where -any- type of armour truly began.

era of the Knights Templar (ca 1060 ad).

Uhm, the order of the Knights Templar wasn't founded until 1119. Are you thinking of the Hospitallers? They were founded in 1100 - which is a bit closer to the date you gave.

 

[LCJr]

I was under the impression Lamellar was superior to scale. Scale being more of a "bargain bin" type armor. Seems to me an upward stroke that slipped under the scales would take it apart.

In the better examples of lamellar armor I've seen each plate is laced to the ones above, below and both sides. Each plate also overlapped horizontally so in any place it was two plates thick. Best example is Samurai armor.

This page has a nice comparison of the two.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/page6.html

 

[Taka]

Someone is forgetting the New Kingdom Egyptians, who wore scale around the exact same time as the Assyrians were wearing lamellar.

See, this is the problem with trying to remeber history without pulling out source books. You are right, though 60 years off for the Templar isn't bad, I can't figure out where the hell 1060 came from. My appologies ^_^;;

I was under the impression Lamellar was superior to scale. Scale being more of a "bargain bin" type armor. Seems to me an upward stroke that slipped under the scales would take it apart.

As with all things, armor is relative, the biggest advantage to scale is flexablity and weight. The ability to move in battle will save you far better than any armor save full body plate. Generaly, the ability to slip a blade upward between the scales would have been really easy save for one simple fact. . . you have a very large, very angry man who is armed determined to stop you. Unless you've been trained to the point where yo ucan drop your body and roll into an upward jab that would both slip between the scales and into a vital area, your best bet is to knock him down and slit his throat, or strike an otherwise exposed area. Once again though, it's all relative. A scale armor that's thicker scaled and properly overlapped can sluff a blow which would slip through the overlap in this armor but not this armor. Sorry for not clarifying earlier.

 

[Aqtai]

The main difference is the construction. in terms of materials scale and lamellar could be made from hardened leather, bronze, iron or steel.

Scale armour is attached to some kind of backing material, where as lamellar doesn't need backing material because the lames are attached to each other. Lamellar armour was very widespread up until the 15th century, many Middle-Eastern, Eastern European, Central Asian, Chinese and Japanese armours were of lamellar construction. For some reason though, it seems to have been quite rare in Western Europe.

Lamellar armour:

Click on the links for more pics of lamellar armour:
http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/lamellar_templarbob/images/image12.gif
http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/lamellar_templarbob/images/image21.gif
http://www.schmitthenner.com/images/SCH1577ac.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Oriental%20Warriors/Mongol_Heavy_Cavalryman.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Oriental%20Warriors/Tibetan_Armour_2.jpg

Scale armour:
http://www.gloryofdresden.com/modularbuilds/gobdwebimages/calloutimages/14--SCALE-ARMOUR.jpg
http://members.iinet.net.au/~bill/gallery/2000/armour.jpg
http://www.schmitthenner.com/images/sch1564.jpg

 

[Taka]

For some reason though, it seems to have been quite rare in Western Europe.

Excluding that one little Italian culture, you know, these guys.

 

[Septa Scarabae]

I was under the impression Lamellar was superior to scale. Scale being more of a "bargain bin" type armor. Seems to me an upward stroke that slipped under the scales would take it apart.

Lamellar armor provides more protection over scale armor at the cost of flexibility, so it was usually worn as a breastplate. It evolved from scale armor and was created by the Assyrians, somewhere around 700 B.C.

It was a great item to wear over chainmail or even with leather scale armor.

 

[Aqtai]

For some reason though, it seems to have been quite rare in Western Europe.

Excluding that one little Italian culture, you know, these guys.

The armour you show there is a lorica segmentata or laminated cuirass, used by the Romans from around 10 BC until 250 AD.

The lorica segmentata is made of trips of iron held together by internal leathers. That is very diferent from lamellar which is made of small, usually rectangular, pieces of metal (or hardened leather) which are laced together with leather thongs or silk cords.

 

[guspav]

yep Aqtai is right, roman armor (lorica segmentata) is referred to as "banded armor"

 

[Aqtai]

yep Aqtai is right, roman armor (lorica segmentata) is referred to as "banded armor"

Umm, actually although banded armour would be a good description for the lorica segmentata, I've never actually come across it being referred to as such. The names I usually hear for it is "segmented cuirass" and "laminated cuirass".

Mind you, Norman J. Finkelshteyn on his Silk Road Armoury website refers to "armour of bands", but I think that is his own term.

 

[Septa Scarabae]

Umm, actually although banded armour would be a good description for the lorica segmentata, I've never actually come across it being referred to as such. The names I usually hear for it is "segmented cuirass" and "laminated cuirass".

It's banded armor.