Sand & Sword | Classical Duel Tournament - Congratulations Arni!

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🐝 M

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Trebron said:
what advantage would you get using such "cheat" in a duel?
Like everything else in warband, dueling at a decent level involves a lot of positioning. Being able to see your full character and therefore its position relative to your opponent is a tremendous advantage.

So although there is a large advantage to be gained with this cheat, I'm surprised there are members of the community who would allow a cheat just because they perceive it as not being advantageous. Would you feel the same about people using an aimbot in matches if the aimbotters told you they'd hit those shots anyway?
 

🐝 M

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edit: the proof that was in this post was incorrect, Arni wasn't using a modified camera. See later in thread :facepalm:
 

Zoyka

Squire
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He most likely just forgot what the right camera position should be and didn't zoom in enough. There is also no doubt that he uses same cheat in matches at WFL and NC too. Nobody can deny that during matches zoom hack gives an insane advantage. He should be thrown out not only from this tournament, but from nations cup, 5x5 and WFL as well.
 
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[M] said:
edit: I was linked another of the screenshots Arni posted earlier in the tournament, neither myself or the person who linked it to me can reproduce this angle either:

This one took me about 2 minutes and isn't remotely suspicious. Just finding the right angle at full zoom, with no view outfit or anything.


As for the other one, you can certainly recreate very similar angles, while the "view outfit" mode is animating the camera into position, as per Sota's explanation. It doesn't strike me as particularly suspicious and the key is very easy to press, while showing the scoreboard.

I think it's good to scrutinise but I can't really see any hard evidence of foul play and that one I debunked is really a stretch. Can't believe you honestly made a good effort to recreate it, considering how little effort was involved.

Just my 2 kuruş

EDIT: Full disclosure I was asked to input on this by Belendor and was initially convinced by the evidence, but changed my mind upon checking the game for myself. Agree that it's quite an exceptional angle and a reason for concern, so I don't mean to dump on anyone for investigating. Just not convinced ultimately.
 

🐝 M

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Did you read my other post where I proved the camera angle isn't possible? :smile: You can read it here: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,359313.msg8699705.html#msg8699705

I gave the second screenshot linked to me the briefest attempt and I'm not immune to confirmation bias, having already been very suspicious of the first one which is now proven to be out of the range of normal camera angles. Obviously I know you have no intention of throwing any support behind a proven cheater so please give it a read.
 
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I did read that and was initially convinced by it, as I mentioned.

The problem is that you align the two characters awkwardly, based on their head positions, despite them being in completely different animations. The camera is not attached to the head of the character and so the result you end up getting is open to a serious margin of error.

EDIT: It would be possible to set the character to idle in that position, with a little bit of fiddly mod work. That would allow you to make a clearer comparison. Just as a constructive suggestion.
 

🐝 M

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Captain Lust said:
I did read that and was initially convinced by it, as I mentioned.

The problem is that you align the two characters awkwardly, based on their head positions, despite them being in completely different animations. The camera is not attached to the head of the character and so the result you end up getting is open to a serious margin of error.
This isn't relevant unfortunately, the edit-mode camera is aligned to the original screenshot by every point of reference. The character is placed as a rough point of reference only so you can see that the edit-mode camera, in its exact matched position, is not in an achievable position.

If the character position, rather than the proven unachievable camera position, is a sticking point in accepting this proof, I'll match the character's position perfectly when I'm home from work :smile:

EDIT: Full disclosure I was asked to input on this by Belendor and was initially convinced by the evidence, but changed my mind upon checking the game for myself. Agree that it's quite an exceptional angle and a reason for concern, so I don't mean to dump on anyone for investigating. Just not convinced ultimately.
Thanks for weighing in either way. Belendor has been trying to make me drop this since the start. Fair play isn't something I'm going to give up so easily though :smile:
 
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I am not trying to make you drop this. I am trying to run a tourney though. But by all means, do your research and let me do mine.
 
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[M] said:
Captain Lust said:
I did read that and was initially convinced by it, as I mentioned.

The problem is that you align the two characters awkwardly, based on their head positions, despite them being in completely different animations. The camera is not attached to the head of the character and so the result you end up getting is open to a serious margin of error.
This isn't relevant unfortunately, the edit-mode camera is aligned to the original screenshot by every point of reference. The character is placed as a rough point of reference only so you can see that the edit-mode camera, in its exact matched position, is not in an achievable position.

If the character position, rather than the proven unachievable camera position, is a sticking point in accepting this proof, I'll match the character's position perfectly when I'm home from work :smile:
Hmm... I was looking at the difference in character position on screen. Not sure about the absolute camera position being unachievable but it doesn't seem like it is to me.

You're still positioning the character to check that as well, from what I can understand, which is a problem because the feet can also be affected by animations. Were he idling, it might be that his character is a step back for example. I'll quote my late edit:

Captain Lust said:
EDIT: It would be possible to set the character to idle in that position, with a little bit of fiddly mod work. That would allow you to make a clearer comparison. Just as a constructive suggestion.
This is the real way to test this. Find that frame and have the character idle in it. Then you can move and fidget (with the view oufit key, at full zoom etc.) and if you really can't grab that angle, you've got some finite evidence imo.

[M] said:
EDIT: Full disclosure I was asked to input on this by Belendor and was initially convinced by the evidence, but changed my mind upon checking the game for myself. Agree that it's quite an exceptional angle and a reason for concern, so I don't mean to dump on anyone for investigating. Just not convinced ultimately.
Thanks for weighing in either way. Belendor has been trying to make me drop this since the start. Fair play isn't something I'm going to give up so easily though :smile:
Like I said, you've every right to challenge and I think it's good to do so. As you've said, though, onus is on you to provide something conclusive.
 

🐝 M

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Captain Lust said:
Captain Lust said:
EDIT: It would be possible to set the character to idle in that position, with a little bit of fiddly mod work. That would allow you to make a clearer comparison. Just as a constructive suggestion.
This is the real way to test this. Find that frame and have the character idle in it. Then you can move and fidget (with the view oufit key, at full zoom etc.) and if you really can't grab that angle, you've got some finite evidence

...

Like I said, you've every right to challenge and I think it's good to do so. As you've said, though, onus is on you to provide something conclusive.
I feel I've already done this but if it's not clear I'm happy to do the mod work you suggest to put this to rest. I'll get to work when I'm home.
 

Maximou

Sergeant Knight
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I agree with M and  his screens etc, I d'ont want to fight Arni to get beated again by someone who is suspicious and not clean.
Gonna talk with with some admins about that.


 

Tardet

French Toast
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Removed the video from my channel, not publishing cheating stuff. Will wait a bit and eventually upload it again when a final decision is taken on that matter.

Still recording semis, hoping for everyone to be clean  :party: If you want your match to be recorded, let me know and I will see if I can make myself available.
 

🐝 M

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Gorlock said:
So it has been proven then? I didn't see any updates post.
I think Belendor had enough messages from different people telling him to accept the evidence that he understandably went with it.

I need to follow my own advice now though:
as a tournament organizer it's your responsibility to do the right thing for the honest players, even if it's harder
I've just spent the majority of my evening trying different camera angles with a mod using frame 38 of the 2h right slash animation:


Despite how dramatically your character is moved forward in this animation frame, I couldn't match the screenshot. I put together a whole narrated video showing its impossibility. I said to my friend on steam, as my UNBEATABLE PROOF VIDEO was uploading, I still had a slight doubt in my mind and tried again. Then I managed to get more or less the exact angle:


It's not perfect (check land overlap) but is near enough that if I spent even more time on this I'm confident I could now match it.


Obviously I'd love to stay silent and and allow people to assume I did prove Arni was cheating in this instance - for my own pride as much as some overdue justice for Arni's history of cheating and DDoSing my server. In this case though, I got carried away with a suspicion and wasn't thorough enough until tonight. I can't let even Arni get punished for something he didn't do.

People put a lot of faith in me about this and I've been contacted by other tournament admins about removing Arni from those tournaments too based on my incorrect evidence. I wasn't deserving of that faith this time and I'll be more thorough in the future - I sincerely apologise to those men and to Arni. I hope my previous offer to withdraw from the tournament at least showed my motivation was a clean tournament rather than improving my chances - actually loading the game and playing it for once would be a better use of my time if I was trying to do that :p


In brighter news, a banned duelist called PATRIK who PMed me to feverishly back up my accusation and accuse Arni of autoblock and more inadvertently admitted to using autoblock and more on the server to support his argument. At least this whole thing gave me confirmation that I was right about that one! :party:
 

Gibby Jr

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Nice try Patrik but there's a reason I kept banning you for autoblock. Arni and I both tested you for it on native and mercs and after M unbanned you I did my best to make him reconsider. The real puzzle is why you were so bad despite having autoblock.

http://youtu.be/hHZAq4i8pW0
http://youtu.be/rLk4LRQ5pcA
Not to mention the fact I changed my ft7 video with you to say you were autoblocking 8 months ago.

Anyway this is about Arni; Arni didn't appear to be cheating in the video from Tardet's channel but I'm definitely less of an expert than someone like M so if he says he's not cheating that's probably the case.
 

Fietta

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I also received a private message from Patrick saying how he's used Autoblock. He's quite the idiot.
 
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