San Francisco proposes to ban male circumcision.
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Verbeek
I thought you guys controlled everything?
HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!?
AWdeV
Duke
Hmm. I can imagine it goes against freedom of religion and whatnot but such a procedure on a child who gets no choice in the matter is in itself rather a violation, isn't it? Which seems to be what the proposal is aiming at. Male circumcision in itself is fine, just as long as the person affected, the one and only single person actually thoroughly affected: the male to be circumcised, gets the choice.
Frankly, this is the same issue as I've noticed in the Netherlands on similar and also on different issues; A protection of religion is a good thing, but there is a limit. Religious freedom is not the most important thing. Circumcising a child is a violation of a person's right to do what they want with their own body. It is in effect the same as giving a new-born a piercing or a tattoo, while the child may not necessarily object to it later and certainly won't object to it when it's happening, but the person affected is not given the choice.
And that choice IS what is most important. So what if tradition demands it, so what if the parents want it? It is simply not their place to decide and not their body to mutilate.
Relatedly, what I was getting at is that protection of a religious freedom often ensures the religious have more freedom than the non-religious. Which is peculiar. The example from the Netherlands isn't to do with male circumcision, but with the slaughtering of animals without tranquilisation. The law here forbids that exact thing for non-religious butchers on the grounds that it is needless suffering for the animal. Why then should the jewish or the muslim butchers be allowed to continue in the traditional manner?
Frankly, this is the same issue as I've noticed in the Netherlands on similar and also on different issues; A protection of religion is a good thing, but there is a limit. Religious freedom is not the most important thing. Circumcising a child is a violation of a person's right to do what they want with their own body. It is in effect the same as giving a new-born a piercing or a tattoo, while the child may not necessarily object to it later and certainly won't object to it when it's happening, but the person affected is not given the choice.
And that choice IS what is most important. So what if tradition demands it, so what if the parents want it? It is simply not their place to decide and not their body to mutilate.
Relatedly, what I was getting at is that protection of a religious freedom often ensures the religious have more freedom than the non-religious. Which is peculiar. The example from the Netherlands isn't to do with male circumcision, but with the slaughtering of animals without tranquilisation. The law here forbids that exact thing for non-religious butchers on the grounds that it is needless suffering for the animal. Why then should the jewish or the muslim butchers be allowed to continue in the traditional manner?
@AWdeV: The problem with that is that getting circumcised when you're a baby doesn't hurt nearly as much as doing it when you're a man. Also, children don't have rights over their religious or physical needs. That's their parents' or guardians' job.
Side note: Wasn't there a health reason for circumcision? The hospital I was born at had a "no matter what the parents want, nick it off" policy.
Edit: Ninja'd.
Side note: Wasn't there a health reason for circumcision? The hospital I was born at had a "no matter what the parents want, nick it off" policy.
Edit: Ninja'd.
AWdeV
Duke
Right, it's not a religious issue, so that's why there's a huuuuge backlash of people whining it's against their religious rights as protected by the constitution.
And that is a violently ****tarded comparison, you should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously. Goddamn that was spectacularily dumb. An appendectomy is necessary because an inflamed appendix can be terribly painful and potentially lethal and a foreskin, well, isn't. An appendectomy is an emergency procedure, a circumcision is a tradition from the bronze ****ing age.
Health reasons are severely debated. The only western country (IIRC) that does it on any kind of scale is the USA. And, shockingly, dicks outside of the USA don't generally have a tendency to fall off and rot or whatever. The foreskin is easy enough to clean and protects the glans very well.
Children do have to a certain extent rights. If a parent was to decide to make a kids' ears pointy for whatever reason then there'll be some definite suspicious looks. But hey, when you do it as a kid it hurts less, so it's okay! No matter what the kid eventually wants for himself (maybe he prefers dwarves over elves for example!), you're just gonna go ahead and mutilate. Because it's tradition. And that makes it okay.
And that is a violently ****tarded comparison, you should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously. Goddamn that was spectacularily dumb. An appendectomy is necessary because an inflamed appendix can be terribly painful and potentially lethal and a foreskin, well, isn't. An appendectomy is an emergency procedure, a circumcision is a tradition from the bronze ****ing age.
Health reasons are severely debated. The only western country (IIRC) that does it on any kind of scale is the USA. And, shockingly, dicks outside of the USA don't generally have a tendency to fall off and rot or whatever. The foreskin is easy enough to clean and protects the glans very well.
Children do have to a certain extent rights. If a parent was to decide to make a kids' ears pointy for whatever reason then there'll be some definite suspicious looks. But hey, when you do it as a kid it hurts less, so it's okay! No matter what the kid eventually wants for himself (maybe he prefers dwarves over elves for example!), you're just gonna go ahead and mutilate. Because it's tradition. And that makes it okay.
BattleOfValmy
When we have foreskins, it can get dirty under there. Solution 1: Just wash your junk thoroughly and take care of it like any sane human being. Solution 2: CUT THAT MOTHER****ER OFF!
Which makes more sense?
Which makes more sense?
Austupaio
Duke
The only argument I've heard against foreskins being removed is pain and pleasure.
'Oh it hurts the baby!' For a day? Mildly? It's not like anyone has ever been traumatized by it. I certainly don't remember the horrid day the evil doctor snipped me.
'It makes the penis less sensitive!' My penis works fine, thanks.
So it's basically a 'Why not?' It does aid health and hygiene, even if negligibly so, and it's standard. So why not?
'Oh it hurts the baby!' For a day? Mildly? It's not like anyone has ever been traumatized by it. I certainly don't remember the horrid day the evil doctor snipped me.
'It makes the penis less sensitive!' My penis works fine, thanks.
So it's basically a 'Why not?' It does aid health and hygiene, even if negligibly so, and it's standard. So why not?
Being a male of 15, uncircumcised, a Christian, and having lived in three countries, including the US; I must say that I don't have a clue on this Earth why these people want to ban something SO insignificant.
But let me take this from another point. I don't think I'd have given a damn if I HAD been circumcised, even now.
I could talk embarassingly about the practicality of having my foreskin, but I don't think many people want to hear such things...
It's an irrelevant issue. The only thing I have heard(that could interest me whatsoever) is that some girls don't like uncircumcised guys, simply because they think it's gross or something.
I keep mine clean, thank you ma'am.
But let me take this from another point. I don't think I'd have given a damn if I HAD been circumcised, even now.
I could talk embarassingly about the practicality of having my foreskin, but I don't think many people want to hear such things...
It's an irrelevant issue. The only thing I have heard(that could interest me whatsoever) is that some girls don't like uncircumcised guys, simply because they think it's gross or something.
I keep mine clean, thank you ma'am.
AWdeV
Duke
Does it? Does it in the least?
The only argument for it is it's being removed because its icky or ungodly.
I've seen often that someone from the USA who's had his bit lopped off says foreskins are icky but that's likely because he's only used to his own. I see nothing icky with foreskins and I think without is rather more icky. Whatever the case, it refuses to give the only person actually affected a choice.
It would be the same if I were to give the kid ****ing elf-ears. Or a third nostril. Makes it respectively either 'prettier' or easier to pick. Yeah, let the person decide that for himself please.
Just because it's standard is a stupid reason.
People in some places think it's icky because they're used to it not existing. Because it's standard. Yeah, that's a vicious circle, not an argument. And while it is insignificant for you, it may not be for the person, y'know, affected.
The only argument for it is it's being removed because its icky or ungodly.
I've seen often that someone from the USA who's had his bit lopped off says foreskins are icky but that's likely because he's only used to his own. I see nothing icky with foreskins and I think without is rather more icky. Whatever the case, it refuses to give the only person actually affected a choice.
It would be the same if I were to give the kid ****ing elf-ears. Or a third nostril. Makes it respectively either 'prettier' or easier to pick. Yeah, let the person decide that for himself please.
Just because it's standard is a stupid reason.
People in some places think it's icky because they're used to it not existing. Because it's standard. Yeah, that's a vicious circle, not an argument. And while it is insignificant for you, it may not be for the person, y'know, affected.
BattleOfValmy
Austupaio 说:
Yeah, let's just surgically seal up the vagina of newborn girls, too, so they don't get crud in there and thus infections. And we can just deliver every baby through caesarean sections. Why not?
Genital mutilation for everyone!
Skyrage
Master Knight
RalliX 说:
All you have to do is reply with "Well, that gaping cave of yours ain't too pretty either, baby"
Frankly I don't really see the whole human fascination when it comes to both "looks" as well as deciding what is good and what is bad on a human body. Cut this off, inject that stuff and so on for whatever reason...it's rather sickening to be honest.
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