Sallying out while allied army is attacking the besiegers

Users who are viewing this thread

RobustTurd

Sergeant
WB
Why can't I join the fight when I'm inside a town and a friendly army is attacking the besiegers? If I sally out I face the enemy army alone, without the help of the allied army.
 
Because the devs don't play the game and have no idea what they're doing so all the do is push out bug and crash fixes brought in from their previous bug/crash "patch" and have the players so their QA.

Regardless, even if you tag @Dejan @Duh_TaleWorlds or whoever else, they won't give you a answer. They have no love for the game or appreciation that this game wouldn't even be 50% of what it is today without the community that they now ignore.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Why can't I join the fight when I'm inside a town and a friendly army is attacking the besiegers? If I sally out I face the enemy army alone, without the help of the allied army.
Hmmm, I think if you wait in the fief until the battle actually begins you have an option to join the defense and I think then if you sally out the defenders should join you, but I don't know if they always do. BUT I haven't done this in last couple versions so I don't know if it still works like that or if it lest you wait in the fief till the battle starts. At some point TW says they will add a different sally out mission, but I hope they leave the field battle option too.
 

RobustTurd

Sergeant
WB
There is no opportunity to join the fight unless you first break out of the siege. Breaking out is a forced "simulation" where you lose a good deal of your troops. Then you even have to traverse in the campaign map for a bit to join the battle. Sallying out lets you take your garrison in the fight as well but you will face the whole besiegeing army without allies even though the besieging army is supposed to be fighting my allied relief army at the same time. Also, sallying out is just a normal field battle instead of actually sallying out of the town gates. None of this makes any sense.
 
Last edited:

saittam

Recruit
There is no opportunity to join the fight unless you first break out of the siege. Breaking out is a forced "simulation" where you lose a good deal of your troops. Then you even have to traverse in the campaign map for a bit to join the battle. Sallying out lets you take your garrison in the fight as well but you will face the whole besiegeing army without allies even though the besieging army is supposed to be fighting my allied relief army at the same time. Also, sallying out is just a normal field battle instead of actually sallying out of the town gates. None of this makes any sense.
Agree to that. The battle should take place outside the wall. With the help of the catapults or balista from the walls and archers. Like when one attack an enemy besieging a friendly fief it should take place when they are climbing the walls. Depending if one wait until they attack or if they are still building the siege camp.
That would make taking fiefs much harder also.
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
Also, sallying out is just a normal field battle instead of actually sallying out of the town gates.
Well, you'll be pleased at least to hear that TW plans on changing that. (You're the first person I've seen complain lol)

 
Last edited:

RobustTurd

Sergeant
WB
Well, you'll be pleased at least to hear that TW plans on changing that.

So it seems. I hope this includes scenarios where you sally out to help the allied relief army. We are yet to have directional deployment but this would be the perfect opportunity to implement one where the besieging army is attacked both, from within the town as well as from behind by the relief force. Maybe this breaks the AI though idk.

@Duh_TaleWorlds or @Dejan maybe a short comment on this?
 

JunKeteer

Veteran
With how they handle reinforcements mid-battle; we won't get something like TotalWar with their reinforcement system. Would've been great to sally out (which you can do already anyways in the siege defense map) but also see your allies engaging from the opposite side of their encampment in the battle map would be wonderful - 100% won't happen though.
 

Duh_TaleWorlds

Developer
@Duh_TaleWorlds or @Dejan maybe a short comment on this?
Missions are - to a degree - constrained by the scenes that they work within. What you are describing would not work in the current scenes (even if we were to move around spawn points, etc, there simply wouldn't be enough room afaik). And like you said, the AI is also not set up to support it.

The sally out mission discussed in the release plans is a surprise attack against the enemy siege engines.
 
Missions are - to a degree - constrained by the scenes that they work within. What you are describing would not work in the current scenes (even if we were to move around spawn points, etc, there simply wouldn't be enough room afaik). And like you said, the AI is also not set up to support it.

The sally out mission discussed in the release plans is a surprise attack against the enemy siege engines.


So basically another bandit camp scenario?

Amazing.
 

RobustTurd

Sergeant
WB
What I ended up doing was to wait until my allied army had reduced the besieging force to minimum and then sally out to capture all the lords and get all the loot lol.
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
A sally out to attack the siege engines during a siege happened a lot in history and is a good additional feature instead of a total failure.

A general sally out to support a release army is a different thing. It was difficult and a dangerous situation to get big numbers of the besieged through the gates quickly, to form a battle line. Quite often in such situation parts of the siege army still manned the siege facilities and could harass the besieged, so it could be argued that the break out scenario with some losses when sallying out could be used. A separate scenario would be better, but it's a matter of resources. I don't need a special map for such situations.

What is the real problem for me is the high amount of losses when breaking in and out. Recently I was thrown out of a besieged castle (by a bug) and had to break in to defend the castle further. I had to accept losses of 100 of my 800 army. That's unacceptably high in itself, bug or not. It has to be toned down, at least the option to decrease the losses with the appropiate perk has to be made more effective. For anti-dev self-defense till then I use a mod to cancel break in/out losses (some losses were better than none however, to create some pressure for the decision).
 
A sally out to attack the siege engines during a siege happened a lot in history and is a good additional feature instead of a total failure.

@Lesbosisles and my point isn't dissing the concept of sallying out. We are saying that if the missions is basically the same as attacking a bandit camp, but with seige engines in the background, then that would be a absolute joke.

I assume with TW current creative approach that the sally out would at best involve hacking away at a trebuchet or catapult until it breaks while fending off 5 or 6 bandits (instead of a boss fight at the end), but if that was the only difference between a sally out and a bandit camp mission, than yes, that would be a total failure and I would be extremely concerned how it took them so long to implement it.

@JunKeteer had the same concerns in my thread about it:

Judging by how 'well-planned' the other features are, it'll just be like bandit hideouts. There won't be any timers, incoming reinforcements, or anything of a 'different system' - just a spawned small group vs small group and then you get that menu prompt after saying you destroyed X engine (or burn down their food stores - which, again, doubt TW even considered that 'basic' level of depth too).
 

JunKeteer

Veteran
I assume with TW current creative approach that the sally out would at best involve hacking away at a trebuchet or catapult until it breaks while fending off 5 or 6 bandits (instead of a boss fight at the end), but if that was the only difference between a sally out and a bandit camp mission, than yes, that would be a total failure and I would be extremely concerned how it took them so long to implement it.
If this was during the early part of EA, would be receptive of this, but not at this stage at 'final' release. What would most likely happen will be a 'sabotage' button (next to sally/break out and same night time trigger as hideouts), then you pick your units, load the scene, kill the 'dumb' prepositioned patrols units, and voila, ram/siege tower destroyed (since the projectile engines never last anyways normally).
I mean, the 'in-castle' second stage of siege offenses are still so horribly unfun - and no improvements here; doubt this sally out thing is some magical feature or even adds any actual meaningful gameplay to the overall.
 
If this was during the early part of EA, would be receptive of this, but not at this stage at 'final' release. What would most likely happen will be a 'sabotage' button (next to sally/break out and same night time trigger as hideouts), then you pick your units, load the scene, kill the 'dumb' prepositioned patrols units, and voila, ram/siege tower destroyed (since the projectile engines never last anyways normally).
I mean, the 'in-castle' second stage of siege offenses are still so horribly unfun - and no improvements here; doubt this sally out thing is some magical feature or even adds any actual meaningful gameplay to the overall.

Yeah I'm inclined to agree with your guess.

For TW it's more the bare minimum so that they can tick another checkbox of promised mechanics (mechanics they showcased in previous devlogs which got us to buy the game).

I'm assuming the next and final game mechanic checkbox is "Implement Criminal Enterprise", which is obviously going to another bit of useless fluff because as as Duh states above, the AI isn't set up to handle much more than what it currently is, which is - not much to say the least.
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
I'm assuming the next and final game mechanic checkbox is "Implement Criminal Enterprise", which is obviously going to another bit of useless fluff because as as Duh states above, the AI isn't set up to handle much more than what it currently is, which is - not much to say the least.
I think it will at least give me a good reason to ever do those bandit fights. I wouldn't mind a passive income stream that actually works consistently, and if it makes the Crime rating have a purpose too, even better.
 

Ichon

Sergeant
What is the real problem for me is the high amount of losses when breaking in and out. Recently I was thrown out of a besieged castle (by a bug) and had to break in to defend the castle further. I had to accept losses of 100 of my 800 army. That's unacceptably high in itself, bug or not. It has to be toned down, at least the option to decrease the losses with the appropiate perk has to be made more effective. For anti-dev self-defense till then I use a mod to cancel break in/out losses (some losses were better than none however, to create some pressure for the decision).
The losses vary depending on Tactics level- breaking into defend a siege with 200 army with 30 tactics is about 80ish losses but only 30ish with 70 tactics which is rather low tactics level for what a player can get up to.

Sally out battle with a smaller force and a time limit before the entire enemy army realizes there is an attack and the castle has to lower the gate would be cool- helpful if there is the ability to set fire to the siege engines and defend it long enough for the besiegers not to put out the blaze.

The size of the forces would be proportional to the garrison vs the army and the player battle size- if set on 200 and the garrison is 200 and the besieging army is 800 then the sally out is 1/8 scale meaning 100 vs 25 but the 100 arrives 25 separately at each siege artillery machine.
 
I think it will at least give me a good reason to ever do those bandit fights. I wouldn't mind a passive income stream that actually works consistently, and if it makes the Crime rating have a purpose too, even better.

I guess. But another form of passive income or income at all for that matter in this game isn't really something I personally care about. I feel like money is never an issue after about an hour into gameplay and another form of passive income isn't really that exciting as a standalone feature.

I would much rather the crime influence how the town behaves, it's loyalty and prosperity.

As it is classed a criminal enterprise, I would like if it was also able to spread to other towns and villages, affect their production and happiness. Funnelling them money and weapons would be a high risk high reward endeavour and if caught, gets you thrown in jail, a permanent enemy of the faction you tried to undermine.

Other gangs that you have a poor relationship with would try to take you out when entering their towns. Gang assassin encounters when preparing for a seige or entering a village.

Enemy lords with a devious trait are more likely influence by criminal gangs and funnel money and weapons to gangs in your towns. You can catch them by finding them or a soldier of their clan standing in the back alleys of your town speaking with the gang leaders.

Just something different than essentially setting up another workshop, except this is a *crime* workshop.
 
I guess. But another form of passive income or income at all for that matter in this game isn't really something I personally care about. I feel like money is never an issue after about an hour into gameplay and another form of passive income isn't really that exciting as a standalone feature.

I would much rather the crime influence how the town behaves, it's loyalty and prosperity.

As it is classed a criminal enterprise, I would like if it was also able to spread to other towns and villages, affect their production and happiness. Funnelling them money and weapons would be a high risk high reward endeavour and if caught, gets you thrown in jail, a permanent enemy of the faction you tried to undermine.

Other gangs that you have a poor relationship with would try to take you out when entering their towns. Gang assassin encounters when preparing for a seige or entering a village.

Enemy lords with a devious trait are more likely influence by criminal gangs and funnel money and weapons to gangs in your towns. You can catch them by finding them or a soldier of their clan standing in the back alleys of your town speaking with the gang leaders.

Just something different than essentially setting up another workshop, except this is a *crime* workshop.
I hope that we can incite a rebellion (or substantially decrease loyalty & security) if we are a powerful criminal and own a hideout, like we can in the fourberie mod. Being able to incite rebellion and take over rebelling towns as a "new" way of starting a kingdom would genuinely add a fun and viable way to play the midgame.
 
Top Bottom