Running down enemies on world map

[ThirdH0rseman]

So I've been chasing this group of 14 Embers for like 10 days non-stop. It seems ridiculous that a party of 113 soldiers, all mounted, can't chase and run down a party of 14 men on foot. And spending $1k per day in wages makes chases like this worthless. And yes, I have mounts for every one of my footmen along with my cavalry and am not getting a herd penalty.

Is there a mod that adds something like a weariness factor? Maybe after several days of constant travel without stopping to rest apply a penalty to movement speed? Taking into account mounts vs on foot?

 

[Lord Irontoe]

You need that scouting perk that gives you a whopping 2% speed increase when chasing hostile parties.

But seriously, don't bother chasing faster parties in open areas. You might have a chance to box them in some of the tighter mountain pass areas but on open ground you'll never catch them.

One possible option is to make a new clan party and send it off with half your troops, but then you've got your horses to consider and that might make you even slower with the herd penalty, so it might be a wash. And then you'd have to chase down your clan party afterwards before it goes and joins an army.

I'm not sure if there are any mods that do exactly what your asking. There's I'm Tired, which makes player and ai parties need to rest every day, but the exhaustion debuff is to morale, not party speed, so I'm not sure if it would help you catch them or if it would just make all the troops desert which would just make them even faster. There are also a bunch of mods that make Scouting skill give a speed buff. That might be your best bet.

 

[ThirdH0rseman]

You need that scouting perk that gives you a whopping 2% speed increase when chasing hostile parties.

But seriously, don't bother chasing faster parties in open areas. You might have a chance to box them in some of the tighter mountain pass areas but on open ground you'll never catch them.

One possible option is to make a new clan party and send it off with half your troops, but then you've got your horses to consider and that might make you even slower with the herd penalty, so it might be a wash. And then you'd have to chase down your clan party afterwards before it goes and joins an army.

I'm not sure if there are any mods that do exactly what your asking. There's I'm Tired, which makes player and ai parties need to rest every day, but the exhaustion debuff is to morale, not party speed, so I'm not sure if it would help you catch them or if it would just make all the troops desert which would just make them even faster. There are also a bunch of mods that make Scouting skill give a speed buff. That might be your best bet.

Great, thanks for the info. Yea first thing I tried to do was split my part and send a bunch of foot soldiers off with my companion but, as you said, that left me with tons of extra horses and a massive herd penalty which slowed me down significantly. And my companion just took off in another direction.

Is there a way to transfer inventory items to your parties the way you transfer troops? I could try to create a party and then transfer all my extra mounts to that party and that should allow me to speed up.

It does just seem silly that you can move non-stop on foot for over a week at the same speed as a mounted party without ever having to rest...

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Great, thanks for the info. Yea first thing I tried to do was split my part and send a bunch of foot soldiers off with my companion but, as you said, that left me with tons of extra horses and a massive herd penalty which slowed me down significantly. And my companion just took off in another direction.

Is there a way to transfer inventory items to your parties the way you transfer troops? I could try to create a party and then transfer all my extra mounts to that party and that should allow me to speed up.

It does just seem silly that you can move non-stop on foot for over a week at the same speed as a mounted party without ever having to rest...

No, you can't give your extra horses to your clan parties, unfortunately. I'm not even sure if AI parties need to use horses the way the player does, or even if they have a normal inventory that you could put things into.

As far as small parties on foot moving faster than a bigger mounted party, I see it like an abstracted version of the small group being able to take narrow, rocky, difficult to navigate paths that would slow down a big party of horsemen. It kind of makes more sense in forest and mountain terrains than on the open steppes in your screenshot, though.

 

[Thelior]

Great, thanks for the info. Yea first thing I tried to do was split my part and send a bunch of foot soldiers off with my companion but, as you said, that left me with tons of extra horses and a massive herd penalty which slowed me down significantly. And my companion just took off in another direction.

Is there a way to transfer inventory items to your parties the way you transfer troops? I could try to create a party and then transfer all my extra mounts to that party and that should allow me to speed up.

It does just seem silly that you can move non-stop on foot for over a week at the same speed as a mounted party without ever having to rest...

Have you tried sending off a companion with a small cavalry party? Even a handful of soldiers will usually try to attack since you are nearby, and they should be able to buy you enough time to join the battle.

 

[ThirdH0rseman]

Have you tried sending off a companion with a small cavalry party? Even a handful of soldiers will usually try to attack since you are nearby, and they should be able to buy you enough time to join the battle.

I did and even set them to Aggressive and they headed in the opposite direction.

I am actually going to try this mod: Party AI Overhaul and Commands Rebuild

"After you order a Clan party to follow you, hold down Left Alt and then Left Click on an enemy to order that Clan party to chase and engage that enemy. Useful to create a small and fast cavalry vanguard party to engage and hold the target so you can catch up with the slower main army. "

Thanks to all that is good and pure in the Universe for modders. Only people who make this game playable...

 

[ThirdH0rseman]

No, you can't give your extra horses to your clan parties, unfortunately. I'm not even sure if AI parties need to use horses the way the player does, or even if they have a normal inventory that you could put things into.

That just seems silly. I mean they need to maintain food supplies right? And when they defeat bandit groups they should get loot which they should then be able to sell for income...or at least give it all to me so I can deal with it. Seems like another major oversight.

 

[froggyluv]

As Ive always said the world map is MS PacMAN minus the Bow in here hair. Meaning imagine if units on the map acted like tasks and survival need based behaviour as opposed to just chasing and running at fixed speeds. Because even if you left out the first part, groups of combatants do not chase each other around the countryside at a fixed speed of 8.2 kph. Now what if they implemented a tiled world under the campaign graphics map. Would if reach tile had distinctions about it like a strategy boardgame -resources, good place to hide, good place to rest, good place to ambush from horseback, swamp that would slow down or even make those traversing sickly. I coulda sworn they would have planned something more along this lines for a next -gen level flagship of the series.

 

[Bluko88]

So I've been chasing this group of 14 Embers for like 10 days non-stop. It seems ridiculous that a party of 113 soldiers, all mounted, can't chase and run down a party of 14 men on foot. And spending $1k per day in wages makes chases like this worthless. And yes, I have mounts for every one of my footmen along with my cavalry and am not getting a herd penalty.

Is there a mod that adds something like a weariness factor? Maybe after several days of constant travel without stopping to rest apply a penalty to movement speed? Taking into account mounts vs on foot?

Having horses for your infantry doesn't help that much. I mean it helps, but having actual cavalry units makes a much greater difference. It's effectively what made the Khuzait completely broken in patches past since they used to get an extra speed boost with cavalry. Also make sure you don't have any herd penalty and not jam packing your inventory. Though 5.6 Speed is pretty good for your current party size.

Bigger parties move slower, because you've got more people you have to coordinate with. It makes some sense, infantryman aren't really "riders" so they only move slightly faster. It's also a good balance thing. Trust me if you aren't save-scumming the entire game you'll be thankful that armies/big parties generally can't you when your little party is running for it's life.


Only thing that bugs is how fast caravans are... caravans should be slow if anything considering they are literally hauling goods. But of course the plethora of bandits everywhere would make them totally ineffective if that were case. IDK bandit parties should never exceed more than 30 men at the most, average should always be like 5-15 men. And then I think caravans should scale up more, like you have a small 30 man caravan, a medium 60 man caravan, and then large caravans of 90 men.

Playing as a "raider" type just doesn't work in this game. Villages don't give diddly squat, and only way to really catch caravans is box them into a corner.

 

[Apocal]

So I've been chasing this group of 14 Embers for like 10 days non-stop. It seems ridiculous that a party of 113 soldiers, all mounted, can't chase and run down a party of 14 men on foot. And spending $1k per day in wages makes chases like this worthless. And yes, I have mounts for every one of my footmen along with my cavalry and am not getting a herd penalty.

There is a baseline (invisible) speed debuff applied to larger parties.

That just seems silly. I mean they need to maintain food supplies right? And when they defeat bandit groups they should get loot which they should then be able to sell for income...or at least give it all to me so I can deal with it. Seems like another major oversight.

AI parties use horses the same way the player party does. The loot they get after battle is directly converted into gold though. Most of that gold goes into party maintenance -- you only make a profit on your clan parties once the party leader has over 5K or so.

 

[diehold]

If you pick battania you can always herd them into the woods and chase them down. Otherwise scouting perks.

 

[babelfisch]

It seems ridiculous that a party of 113 soldiers, all mounted, can't chase and run down a party of 14 men on foot.

Because 9 women get a baby in 1 month, right?

Sorry, but it would be ridiculous if you  can chase them down.

Anyway, it would be nice if we could make camp and follow them with a smaller group while the rest of our party waits.

In the meantime you could try to create a second party with your companion and donate your troops to him.

 

[babelfisch]

As Ive always said the world map is MS PacMAN minus the Bow in here hair. Meaning imagine if units on the map acted like tasks and survival need based behaviour as opposed to just chasing and running at fixed speeds. Because even if you left out the first part, groups of combatants do not chase each other around the countryside at a fixed speed of 8.2 kph. Now what if they implemented a tiled world under the campaign graphics map. Would if reach tile had distinctions about it like a strategy boardgame -resources, good place to hide, good place to rest, good place to ambush from horseback, swamp that would slow down or even make those traversing sickly. I coulda sworn they would have planned something more along this lines for a next -gen level flagship of the series.

As long as they don't simulate every grashalm the game is a complete failure.

While I like the suggestion this goes into the area of feature creep. It probably wouldn't even make the game better, just more complex for the sake of it.

 

[ThirdH0rseman]

The Party AI Overhaul and Commands Rebuild mod has been working okay for me. The advanced commands it lets you give your AI party is %1000 better than what's in the game. I detached my companion and gave him all my cavalry and told him to attack that group. He sprints forward and pins them down while I drag my ass over there and finish the job.

Only problem is that by the time I get there he's lost nearly half the troops I gave him, because the AI battles are horrible. 30 horse archers against 14 men on foot should be an easy fight...but I guess this is better than nothing. Modders are the best!

I'd still like to see some kind of fatigue modifier. Party speed should begin to slow down after a certain number of days on the road without stopping to rest. Makes traversing the map a little more strategic.

 

[ThirdH0rseman]

There is a baseline (invisible) speed debuff applied to larger parties.

Supposedly party speed is inversely proportional to party size. I've yet to be able to calculate the actual ratio though. According to this post a party size of 100 has a base party speed of 4.25 so you should be able to use that to calculate what the base party speed is for any party size, but none of my calculations work out. It's probably not a straight ratio...I'd love to see what they do to calculate it.

 

[froggyluv]

As long as they don't simulate every grashalm the game is a complete failure.

While I like the suggestion this goes into the area of feature creep. It probably wouldn't even make the game better, just more complex for the sake of it.

Giving the World map and the parties traveling it ain that complex -they just choose to keep it so simple it borders on stupid. One party chasing another party especially when they are the same exact speed all around the edges of the map with nothing to stop them is about the most simplistic, dull, non-exciting, noneventful thing I can imagine. My examples were exactly that- examples and ideas of things that could make it more interesting not demands. Maybe take your defensive alarm system down a notch and stop ringing the bell everytime a suggestion scrunches your undies.

Think about historic battles and engagements for a second -just about anyone involving an army following or chasing down another army over land mass -in every single case something, anything is going to play a part into the strategic element of the terrain chosen, the weather, the need to stop for rest, resupply, ambush, flee at greater speed etc...absolutely none of this can happen on the strategy world map we have now. But shoo-shooing any new development in that department is probably our best bet... so carry on soldier!

 

[JunKeteer]

Giving the World map and the parties traveling it ain that complex -they just choose to keep it so simple it borders on stupid. One party chasing another party especially when they are the same exact speed all around the edges of the map with nothing to stop them is about the most simplistic, dull, non-exciting, noneventful thing I can imagine. My examples were exactly that- examples and ideas of things that could make it more interesting not demands. Maybe take your defensive alarm system down a notch and stop ringing the bell everytime a suggestion scrunches your undies.

Think about historic battles and engagements for a second -just about anyone involving an army following or chasing down another army over land mass -in every single case something, anything is going to play a part into the strategic element of the terrain chosen, the weather, the need to stop for rest, resupply, ambush, flee at greater speed etc...absolutely none of this can happen on the strategy world map we have now. But shoo-shooing any new development in that department is probably our best bet... so carry on soldier!

Well, it sorta does dependent on your scout/perks (usually catch up over night), but it is boring if you have nearly matching speed to that .01 speed; you just have to make the decision to give up chasing that party or do something else to gain that few more decimals (ie drop prisoners/unburden/herd/etc...).

A 100-party shouldn't be able to chase down at 15-party; otherwise, it works for the AI too if you're rebuilding/etc...you'll stay a prisoner forever. You can add that mod to split and chase down a party, but you also have to acknowledge that it gives the player another substantial advantage over the AI on top of the other player advantages we already have.

 

[froggyluv]

Well, it sorta does dependent on your scout/perks (usually catch up over night), but it is boring if you have nearly matching speed to that .01 speed; you just have to make the decision to give up chasing that party or do something else to gain that few more decimals (ie drop prisoners/unburden/herd/etc...).

A 100-party shouldn't be able to chase down at 15-party; otherwise, it works for the AI too if you're rebuilding/etc...you'll stay a prisoner forever. You can add that mod to split and chase down a party, but you also have to acknowledge that it gives the player another substantial advantage over the AI on top of the other player advantages we already have.

Im talking more out of "make the game interesting" than who it would benefit more AI or Player. For the original M&B it was totally acceptable as it was a great combat game so the world map could be excused. I remember a Dev/Modder at the time was working on a more cohesive AI lords behaviour on the map system as well a an individual mesenger system (a party of 1 who would be sent to relay information rather than insta-knowledge) -that was interesting. Then came Warband and they didnt much improve on the world map but i got caught up in the amazing MP so didnt really care.

But now after all these years we see the next gen game and the overhead map game world is STILL in that pedantic state -its depressing. Ill literally re-install the game thinking maybe i just havent tested it enough or its matured -but its the exact same. You start a game, see lords maneuvering around and NONE of it is interesting. They could have at least created a border system in which Lords would question or straight up attack any army just deciding to mosey on thru -but not even that most basic element of geo-political has been implemented. Its just everyone buzzing around like flies with no ramifications or anything -totally listless and non interesting game design on that end. Ill admit I find the combat very well done but even that needs to be supported by an overall world/strategy design

 

[ThirdH0rseman]

A 100-party shouldn't be able to chase down at 15-party; otherwise, it works for the AI too if you're rebuilding/etc...you'll stay a prisoner forever.

Through the deep woods, sure I'll agree. Over rough terrain like mountains or rivers? Again, sure. But over open terrain there should be no reason that a group of 100 soldiers on mounts...even with a baggage train...shouldn't be able to run down a group of 15 soldiers on foot. Especially over an extended chase of several days. No soldier can keep moving at that speed without rest or sleep, no matter how elite they are. You can push horses much further than you can humans. So adding a fatigue modifier makes sense.

You'd still be able to have an escape mechanic. Wait for the large party to be near a forest to make a break for it. Or take that rough trip over the mountain pass. It should be easy enough to 1) adjust the terrain modifier to impact different parties differently and 2) keep track of how long parties have been moving and simulate fatigue on both mounts and soldiers.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Im talking more out of "make the game interesting" than who it would benefit more AI or Player. For the original M&B it was totally acceptable as it was a great combat game so the world map could be excused. I remember a Dev/Modder at the time was working on a more cohesive AI lords behaviour on the map system as well a an individual mesenger system (a party of 1 who would be sent to relay information rather than insta-knowledge) -that was interesting. Then came Warband and they didnt much improve on the world map but i got caught up in the amazing MP so didnt really care.

But now after all these years we see the next gen game and the overhead map game world is STILL in that pedantic state -its depressing. Ill literally re-install the game thinking maybe i just havent tested it enough or its matured -but its the exact same. You start a game, see lords maneuvering around and NONE of it is interesting. They could have at least created a border system in which Lords would question or straight up attack any army just deciding to mosey on thru -but not even that most basic element of geo-political has been implemented. Its just everyone buzzing around like flies with no ramifications or anything -totally listless and non interesting game design on that end. Ill admit I find the combat very well done but even that needs to be supported by an overall world/strategy design

One of the more interesting Warband mods I've played was an old Asian mod called 12th, which had this Pass system where each walled fief had a small area of control around it which enemy parties couldn't pass through unless they were sieging it, and the whole map was designed to take advantage of that with chokepoints all over. It completely changed how wars played out. There were real battlefronts where all the fighting happened. Castles had real strategic value because if you lost the one that guarding a bridge or a mountain pass it would open up all your interior territories to raiding. It was such a clever system. I don't think they changed the ai at all, but that one change to how fiefs work made the ai seem so much smarter.