Rome at War: Suggestions/bugs

[Childe_Rolande]

I was about to (once again) talk about the possibility of getting another spear animation: the overarm. I found the last time it was discussed here. Instead, since I now consider this nigh impossible in the Warband engine (I would otherwise love to see as many modes of the spear as possible, including underarm (under- and overhead) and overarm (thrusting and throwing)), I'd like to suggest something else which this video inspired me to.

I think you should allow for the throwing of all spears (excluding pikes etc. of course). You've already done it for some classes: instead of using "x" to switch between under- and overhead thrust, the assault troop of Epiros simply attacks up/down for the direction, and "x" is used to go to throwing mode. You should only be allowed to carry one of these in my opinion, and therefore have to draw your secondary weapon after throwing the spear.

I don't much care for throwing all spears, (especially since any rear-weighted spear would throw like crap.. it would go a short distance before tumbling), but I do of course support the notion of getting overarm to work. But you guys have heard that already. 

It's usage is a given, historically. It's functionality is not really up to debate, nor are it's advantages.  It's the actual animating that I think is the issue here. Short of learning to animate, or having the ability to mo-cap it, I couldn't think any way anyone could help either.  I haven't seen a very good good overarm animation in any Warband mode myself either.

 

[Dansk viking]

I don't much care for throwing all spears, (especially since any rear-weighted spear would throw like crap.. it would go a short distance before tumbling)

Is that so? I have never actually used a spear so I just assumed it would be fine with a spear such as the traditional Doru.

 

[jepekula]

I would imagine it would be somewhat possible with the shortest spears, but be way too ineffective and clumsy with anything else.
I've never stabbed or thrown a spear, so I don't know, though.

 

[Childe_Rolande]

I don't much care for throwing all spears, (especially since any rear-weighted spear would throw like crap.. it would go a short distance before tumbling)

Is that so? I have never actually used a spear so I just assumed it would be fine with a spear such as the traditional Doru.

Indeed. I mean it can be thrown, just as anything at all can be thrown.  The issue of course is where the balance point is. Take a javelin for instance. It's front heavy, so launching it either directly or as an indirect projectile, it'll fall point-first.  The problem with the Greek Dory/Doru is that many of them could have been rear-balanced.  Rome At War's models certainly are, if you look at the point of grip versus overall length, as well as sauroter size.  So at short distances it'll launch and remain aichme(spearhead) forward. Over any longer distance though, especially in a parabolic arc, the heaviest part will want to fall forward. And the center of balance is essentially rear-ward, so the sauroter will want to flop forward like a javelin, arrow, or what have you. The thing may very well strike the target with the shaft as opposed to the blade.  At very short distances it might work, but at length it wouldn't. Then there's just the lack of utility in throwing a long war spear. I'd only do that if I was pursuing routing troops, or otherwise in a position where I had no further need of my spear.


Somewhat like this depiction of Ekdromoi here. Granted, Ekdromoi were not as our video games love to conceive of them, some kind of separate contingents of special light-hoplites, but rather simply those of the appropriate age group deemed to be fleetest of foot, 'outrunners', who would pursue and deter cavalry or skirmishers who would make a mess of the more sluggish hoplite force. (And even in this case, you wouldn't want to give up your spear. I imagine you'd want to pull it back out of your target after throwing.)

Spoiler

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/26/c2/a0/26c2a0cdf399dcf51e14e7f11bdd9af9.jpg

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I would imagine it would be somewhat possible with the shortest spears, but be way too ineffective and clumsy with anything else.
I've never stabbed or thrown a spear, so I don't know, though.

I would reckon that just about any spear could do it actually, so long as the weight is more forward than backward.  But as usual, I would classify fighting spears as not for throwing unless really desperate circumstances allow it.  I personally wouldn't mind not being able to throw fighting spears in-game.  Dual-purpose spears are a different matter.  Archaic hoplites would quite commonly throw one or both of their spears, even utilizing the ankyle.  Later on, certainly in this era, I really would not bet on it.  I wouldn't eagerly give up a weapon that avails me 7-9' reach on my opponent!

Spoiler

(Would love to see an archaic Greece mod some day..) https://johnnyshumate.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/archaicgreeks.jpg

 

[Childe_Rolande]

Hey, guys. I was just playing online on Joub's server with a couple of folks. I noticed what seemed to by this xiphos in-game. This is the exact model that was also used for Rome II's xiphoi, and it's just as inaccurate..  I hope this isn't the one being used, but I have to ask anyway. 

Was/is this in your mod?

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=500734&name=Classic+Hoplite+Sword

 

[KickingJoub]

Please don't call it "Joub's server", I try to keep it minimally dictatorial. As for the other stuff: hell if I know.

 

[Childe_Rolande]

Willco, Joub.  My apologies.

Yes.. I was just wondering because, well as I've probably said already I've gone somewhat full-speed into process of putting together accurate panoplies, and in examining reference images from many existing models to see how well they compare to the finds they're based on.

That particular xiphos with the dark handle, I first saw it on Kult Of Athena ages ago. Then I realized it's a model in Rome II, and so are a lot of sword models there which are based on completely fantastical designs made by modern 'winging it' designs.  And this definitely seems like one of them.  I don't think it based on any historical design at all.

Recently someone put it through the gauntlet of posting it on a forum where a lot of experts and historians tend to convene, and the overwhelming consensus was that it is purely made up.  If this is not the case, however, then I would have learned something from it. Which is a boon.    I am always very eager to see new models I haven't seen before, based on real designs.. the ancients were really quite incredible craftsmen.  The thrusting xiphos was a new one for me, which I still quite admire.

 

[Seek n Destroy]

Spoiler

I guess you mean the top one, it's from an OSP so we didn't make this one. It was used as a placeholder until we'd make some new ones based on Greek models as the current ones are all based on Italian finds.
Pretty much the same thing about the throwing spears, I had hoped we would have made some Hellenic javelins, I'll replace them with celtic javelins in the meantime, not the same as having the right piece but close enough.

 

[Childe_Rolande]

Spoiler

I guess you mean the top one, it's from an OSP so we didn't make this one. It was used as a placeholder until we'd make some new ones based on Greek models as the current ones are all based on Italian finds.
Pretty much the same thing about the throwing spears, I had hoped we would have made some Hellenic javelins, I'll replace them with celtic javelins in the meantime, not the same as having the right piece but close enough.

Excellent, sir. I understand. Not your fault then. For what it's worth, the others look excellent in my experience.   

If I may recommend a replacement model, there's a rare but rather unique form of xiphos out there, maybe the thrusting variant?

http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/arms/greek-and-roman-arms/thrusting-xiphos/664

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12661859_10208789217396644_7067246420606390542_n.jpg?oh=e01ab4ddbe089d49a8ad4403c5e5c61e&oe=57A898D6

'A faithful reproduction of a 4th century Xiphos from Vergina, Northern Greece. This kind of Xiphos is shown in Greek art work along side the other cutting style. The tang is a light weight I beam section with antler slabs and iron furniture. Total weight is 6oog with a blade length of 17 and a third inches. This reproduction as made after handling, measuring and photographing some unpublished Xiphoi at Vergina.'

I have yet to see the one in Vergina yet.

Or perhaps you can work in a short model, (which has rather unnecessarily been attributed only to Lakedaemonians, despite the fact that it's seen more frequently, [apparently in statues and/or imagery] with Thebans using them). I'm certain they existed though. Only one small archaeological finding, but a lot of vase depictions.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/macedonia2/ancientgreekpro/hoplitevspersianssixtyfour.jpg

http://www.histoire-fr.com/images/hoplite.gif

 

[Heinrich der Finkler]

Barracks allow you to retrain some low level units and give them access to better equipment. Low level units such as light infantry and cavalry are possible candidates while high level units such as heavy infantry, nobles and heavy cavalry cannot be retrained. Have some units such as hastati or low level hoplites, go to the barracks menu, click on the unit and under their portrait there should be the option to upgrade them to a better version of the unit:

Spoiler

Hello guys,

i've already read the faq and check on discussion forum, but cant find a solution need some help please..:/
I've updated the version to 2.5, started as lord a new game!
I dont know where to recruit units, in castle and city i can upgrade the troops, but the new ones?
On villages i cant found the options recruit, and in city too!
Sorry for the noob questions guy..XD

 

[Seek n Destroy]

It's in the opening message when you spawn on the world map, I imagine that by now it's most people's habit just to click "Ok" without reading it, I know I do. I should update the guides/F.A.Q. one day, probably after 2.6.

Greetings adventurer to the Rome at War mod ! Before you wonder how to recruit troops let me explain it to you, you will need to go to a village and talk to the village overseer and ask him for the available troops, from there you will access a units menu. (...)

@Childe_Rolande:
I'd love to have Philip's xiphos from the Vergina tomb for the officers, it's one of the few pieces from it we haven't done yet. It would be a good replacement from the current ones that are based on the Alexander movie props.

 

[Antonis]

I'd love to have Philip's xiphos from the Vergina tomb for the officers, it's one of the few pieces from it we haven't done yet. It would be a good replacement from the current ones that are based on the Alexander movie props.

I am sorry for the Off-topic, but I just had to say that I have seen all the armour parts and the other exhibits up close, because my home-town is very close to Vergina, about 30 to 45 minutes. 

 

[archaicwarrior]

Hi, new here, love roman republican period, love M&B viking Conquest = addicted, will follow this mod with interest,

BTW, have you thought about using satellite height map data for your strategic maps, looks really cool = very professional looking. I've done some experiments in the past, see my post here - https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,347915.msg8328120.html#msg8328120

 

[rgcotl]

well warband map is very limited to the poly number and when poly number increases to much game became slower, slower and slower.
so there isnt much of things we can do with it unless we just take a very small distances like rome itself or with few setlments only

 

[KickingJoub]

Hi, new here, love roman republican period, love M&B viking Conquest = addicted, will follow this mod with interest,

We're not associated with Viking Conquest, but hey, thanks for the nice words!

 

[Dansk viking]

There's the debate about whether Romans carried two pila in battle (since it seems they carried two on the march), but aside from that I think this suggestion would make sense.

How about splitting up throwing spears/pila into 1 per slot? (Provided of course you can pick throwing weapons in two slots instead of only the lower one). This would allow for more choices: some might only want to carry one (and it would be cheaper), and it would also allow for the combination of a light and a heavy pilum that some argue would have been the standard Roman equipment, at least later on.


Throwing weapons are very powerful in this game, and the team with good ones often have a great advantage if they know how to use them effectively. Now, I'd still argue that the short doru should be throwable. It's quite possible that they did throw them at times (also considering how prevalent throwing spears were during archaic times, it would be weird if that tradition had died down entirely - see the duel between Ajax and Hector, for example, and pretty much all fighting in the Iliad involved throwing spears). It would also give the Hellenic factions that don't usually have much in the way of throwing a possibility to do so if the situation called for it.

It would of course be great if any spare throwing weapons were kept in the left hand (with or without shield), but that may not be possible. I'd prefer it if throwing weapons could not be hid up your ***, and therefore, if this feature could be implemented, I think the top and the bottom slots should have throwing weapons (like only the top has non-throwable spears now); this way, if you have two throwing weapons, one would be your spawning weapon and the second would be in your other hand (held with the shield hand together with the shield if you have any). If you switch weapon, the one in your right hand should drop to the ground like regular spears. I know these are very complicated features and likely only wishful thinking.

 

[rgcotl]

well the problem is that here is only 4 slots for weapons
and if you look at every roman type of warrior they all have sword shield and pugio (thats 3 slots)
and 2 pilums like you discused would require 5 slots to have instead of 4 possibile

about the doru
well technically it would make sense from game perspective that spear like doru could be throwable
many ppl fight with it and latter droping it and takes the sword instead so throwing it in the enemy would make some use of it

unfortunatly every feature we add have downsides like
presing x mele mode means that you cant technically use x for changing up and down atack
well there is posibility to add more than 2 weapon modes but it will follow the rule mode1 turning to mode 2 truning to mode 3 turining to mode1
and if mode 1 is throwable then you will loose the advantage of what kind of atack you going to do next

 

[Dansk viking]

How many people bring both a sword and pugio? It would make more sense to bring a short sword, a shield, a light pilum and a heavy pilum. Or, if you insist on bringing a pugio, you can be content with one pilum (which some would argue would be the norm in battle anyway).

I don't see what you mean with the changing of mode: with some troops (like the assault troop) the spear already uses directional attack instead of x to change over/under-attack (as x is used to change to throwing), and the same is the case for single-player. There's no need to use the x for changing between over/under-attack.

 

[rgcotl]

well it is true that pugio had not much to do with warband (it simple is the worst possibile sword you could get)
doru  the short one have x mode to change between up and down position and i am happy of it

 

[Dansk viking]

Sure, it works fine, but so does up and down directional which is used by some troops and in single-player. If you agree that it works fine as well, and using x bars for the option to use them for throwing, would it not make more sense to use the option that allows for both?