Rome at War: Suggestions/bugs

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EFREM

Knight
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A little bit too early to even think about Caucasus and the Eastern in general. The mod development is adressed in covering only the part of Europe as the last previews showed. Needless to say there is so much to do yet with the current factions, that most basic things take precedence at the moment.
In addition to that, I'd like to remind that a total overhaul of the current map is in fieri.
And, yes, the best is definitely yet to come. 
 

HannesFury

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&S
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ᚦorkell said:
Just to add to the discussion about overarm vs. underarm spear use that we had on around page 81 here: I don't usually watch this guy's videos, but this particular one illustrates very well my point about the sauroter being a danger to friends behind you if you use an underarm grip.


EDIT: Which it turns out we already used back then. But whatever, good points deserve repeating.

My dream scenario would be to have two spear stances with each two different modes. In Víkingr (which I think could also benefit from this, also since RaW is already much more enjoyable for spear wielders) you have a toggle for throwing spears (only the variant used for cavalry) where you could use P to switch between stances. One with the modes (switched with X) couching/overhead and the other with throwing/overhead.

For infantry spear users I would then suggest to have:
- Underarm stance with overhead/under shoulder modes (like the current standard)
- Overarm stance with overhead/throwing modes.
Ideally, in my world
the overhand attack would be quick, but with less reach and impact,
the underhand with greater impact and reach, but with less speed

The reason why overhand not only may seem quicker due to the the shorter travel distance (reach), but why it may deserve more speed, is that the hand ends up stretched into a particularly weak and vulnerable position one tends to want get away from as soon as possible.
Perhaps even more significant regarding overhand acceleration and speed is the comparably less complex motion, as opposed to the the underhand variety which uses more muscle groups, and at a somewhat less advantageous angle for the purpose of acceleration.

In regards to reach, this comes back to the wrist. In order to preserve the relatively horizontal angle when protruding the spear in front of you, maximum distance of travel is effectively decreased. It's also the case that the human hand with its opposing thumbs cannot support as much weight toward the tip, effectively decreasing how far back you can hold the hand while still having control of the shaft.


These are my hypotheses.
 

Scuba Steve

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Yngvald said:
ᚦorkell said:
Just to add to the discussion about overarm vs. underarm spear use that we had on around page 81 here: I don't usually watch this guy's videos, but this particular one illustrates very well my point about the sauroter being a danger to friends behind you if you use an underarm grip.


EDIT: Which it turns out we already used back then. But whatever, good points deserve repeating.

My dream scenario would be to have two spear stances with each two different modes. In Víkingr (which I think could also benefit from this, also since RaW is already much more enjoyable for spear wielders) you have a toggle for throwing spears (only the variant used for cavalry) where you could use P to switch between stances. One with the modes (switched with X) couching/overhead and the other with throwing/overhead.

For infantry spear users I would then suggest to have:
- Underarm stance with overhead/under shoulder modes (like the current standard)
- Overarm stance with overhead/throwing modes.
Ideally, in my world
the overhand attack would be quick, but with less reach and impact,
the underhand with greater impact and reach, but with less speed

The reason why overhand not only may seem quicker due to the the shorter travel distance (reach), but why it may deserve more speed, is that the hand ends up stretched into a particularly weak and vulnerable position one tends to want get away from as soon as possible.
Perhaps even more significant regarding overhand acceleration and speed is the comparably less complex motion, as opposed to the the underhand variety which uses more muscle groups, and at a somewhat less advantageous angle for the purpose of acceleration.

In regards to reach, this comes back to the wrist. In order to preserve the relatively horizontal angle when protruding the spear in front of you, maximum distance of travel is effectively decreased. It's also the case that the human hand with its opposing thumbs cannot support as much weight toward the tip, effectively decreasing how far back you can hold the hand while still having control of the shaft.


These are my hypotheses.
Peter Connolly's research however, suggests that overarm had considerably more impact, while underarm had about 40% of the force of overarm, and that shoulder level underarm had half the force of overarm, as seen in this table from  the paper "AN EVALUATION OF THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THREE METHODS OF SPEAR GRIP USED IN ANTIQUITY" by Peter Connolly, David Sim, and Celia Watson in the "Journal of Battlefield Technology, VOL 4, NO 2, July 2001".



(Note: if anyone wants a copy of this paper; it's short but quite good, give me a PM). 
 

HannesFury

Sergeant Knight
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Neat. What is the effect size, sample size, and overall methodology used in the paper? Are you aware of other, and more in depth studies?

Feel free to throw me a DM as well, Ansgar.
 
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ᚦorkell said:
Just to add to the discussion about overarm vs. underarm spear use that we had on around page 81 here: I don't usually watch this guy's videos, but this particular one illustrates very well my point about the sauroter being a danger to friends behind you if you use an underarm grip.


EDIT: Which it turns out we already used back then. But whatever, good points deserve repeating.

My dream scenario would be to have two spear stances with each two different modes. In Víkingr (which I think could also benefit from this, also since RaW is already much more enjoyable for spear wielders) you have a toggle for throwing spears (only the variant used for cavalry) where you could use P to switch between stances. One with the modes (switched with X) couching/overhead and the other with throwing/overhead.

For infantry spear users I would then suggest to have:
- Underarm stance with overhead/under shoulder modes (like the current standard)
- Overarm stance with overhead/throwing modes.
  @ ᚦorkell , Ultimately I don't think that's too awful an idea.  The issue with 'throwing spears', or infantry spears used for throwing though, is (realistically) neutered by the point of balance on most every spear in RaW.  The point of balance is markedly rearward on most of them the last time I checked. Spears weighted this way will sail a short distance and then tumble due to the point of balance. Consider it like throwing a javelin in reverse. The balance is markedly forward on a javelin, so throwing it reared around will have it eventually tumble and not hit, er.. butt-first.  With that said, while I would adore a proper overarm stance, to my knowledge the issue is that of animating.  The last overarm thrust animation to be 'on the market' that was usable was from the Peloponnesian War mod, and that one was, to be frank, jittery, un-smooth and not that natural-looking. So a new animation needs to be found or created first, as using that one would probably end up not only looking not so great, but it might also make the attack unbalanced.  I'm not sure if this is a priority at the present, or do-able. Much as I'd love to see it done in what is already arguably the best mod of this period.


---


Yngvald said:
Ideally, in my world
the overhand attack would be quick, but with less reach and impact,
the underhand with greater impact and reach, but with less speed
Technically of course, one can jab quickly with a spear from either the underarm or the overarm stance. With that said, as far as I've experienced personally, and what I've heard from most people who have attempted both forms, as well as the article posted in the Journal of Battlefield Technology ThegnAnsgar posted above of which I own a copy, the experience is generally that overarm is the stronger of the two. This is largely due to the range of motion allotted to it. While a jab might be what initially comes to mind when one considers the overarm thrust, a stronger thrust from that stance has full range of motion from the spear reared back all the forward. Newbies and inexperienced authors and self-proclaimed historians/experts alike are not aware of how to shift the grip during the thrust such that the arm can fully extend forward, but anyone used to it can make it happen easily and will show you how it's done. It's what Temenos here calls 'retained throw'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOW8EsnTyLw

https://youtu.be/KtIPp-m69BY?t=15m18s - And here's Thrand using it.

Should any of your reasoning be aided by the work of Christopher Matthews' 'A Storm of Spears', within the hoplite community it is not without its' severe criticisms. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4na0mj/how_good_is_christopher_matthews_scholarship/?st=iw5kjrxe&sh=31473f4e  ,  http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/2014/10/christopher-mathews-flawed-analysis-of.html .

Yngvald said:
The reason why overhand not only may seem quicker due to the the shorter travel distance (reach), but why it may deserve more speed, is that the hand ends up stretched into a particularly weak and vulnerable position one tends to want get away from as soon as possible.
Perhaps even more significant regarding overhand acceleration and speed is the comparably less complex motion, as opposed to the the underhand variety which uses more muscle groups, and at a somewhat less advantageous angle for the purpose of acceleration.
The first bit about the wrist was somewhat addressed above; a video here was also uploaded showing clearly both the fluidity and the wide range of motion of both idealized versions of spear thrust. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-htxo0uPQc For an experienced spear-wielder in one hand, neither should be particularly difficult to pull off.  Though I am no physician, I would also argue that overarm is naturally stronger because it uses more, and larger, muscle groups in the thrust. The motion is in fact identical to an overarm throw, which is the most powerful one the human body can devise to propel an object at speed, so in terms of sheer velocity and strength, my bet is on this style.

Yngvald said:
In regards to reach, this comes back to the wrist. In order to preserve the relatively horizontal angle when protruding the spear in front of you, maximum distance of travel is effectively decreased. It's also the case that the human hand with its opposing thumbs cannot support as much weight toward the tip, effectively decreasing how far back you can hold the hand while still having control of the shaft.
This is of course answered above.  Now, in regards to your curiosity toward the article that was published in that journal, they used a pretty standard spear of 2.5m in length, with a leafed blade and buttspike. Attached to this spearhead was a force-transducer and accelerometer. The head of it looked something like this - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Annemieke_Milks/publication/308959113/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Figure-3-Spear-replica-with-custom-fitted-load-cell.jpg

Quoting the article, 'Recent work by Horsfall et all has shown that the energy and froces of a knife attack can be measured. This work has been extended to investigate the energies involved in spear attack. An instrumented spear connected to a data-capture system was used to evaluate the three methods of gripping a spear.. These grips were compared in terms of impact forces and total energy delivered in an attack. The instrumented spear consisted of a 150mm long knife blade clamped into a holder specifically designed so that a compression transducer could be mounted behind the blade. This holder was then connected to an aluminum sleeve which had an accelerometer mounted on it. The sleeve protected the accelerometer and connected the metal shaft to the wooden shaft. The spear's total weight was 1.35 kh, length 1.64m. The transducer and accelerometer were connected to a Rosand Precision Ltd control system, enabling the force and acceleration data to be collected in a pre-set time interval. These data were then transferred into a spreadsheet for further analysis.'

The target was a 12mm thick, 1-m square sheet of plywood positioned so the center was 1.3m above the ground. Regarding the safety and consistency of the target surface itself, I quote 'All tests used a standard target of 12-layer Aeroflex sheet; a woven Kevlar fibre composite in a thermoplastic binder, supported on a Plastolena backing block of a type used for the ballistic testing of body armour. This had been shown in previous work by Horsfall et all to offer a degree of penetration resistance without interfering with the passage of the blade into the backing block.' 

Twenty blows were struck in each grip. It goes into further technical detail discussed within the article. Aside from other charts, and the one shared already, they concluded similar results that many people I know also have; I quote, 'The laboratory tests showed that overarm delivered highest velocities, peak forces, and energy, which was reduced by half when used underarm.. shoulder level thrusts delivered the least amount of force'. 'Force values for underarm attacks were approximately 40% less than overarm attacks, with the shoulder level grip giving values approximately 50% less than overarm.'
 
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ᚦorkell said:
Just to add to the discussion about overarm vs. underarm spear use that we had on around page 81 here: I don't usually watch this guy's videos, but this particular one illustrates very well my point about the sauroter being a danger to friends behind you if you use an underarm grip.


EDIT: Which it turns out we already used back then. But whatever, good points deserve repeating.

My dream scenario would be to have two spear stances with each two different modes. In Víkingr (which I think could also benefit from this, also since RaW is already much more enjoyable for spear wielders) you have a toggle for throwing spears (only the variant used for cavalry) where you could use P to switch between stances. One with the modes (switched with X) couching/overhead and the other with throwing/overhead.

For infantry spear users I would then suggest to have:
- Underarm stance with overhead/under shoulder modes (like the current standard)
- Overarm stance with overhead/throwing modes.

Oh, by the way, in regards to safety to the people behind you, it's possible that simply rearing the spear up diagonally in a defensive posture after each strike would add to that safety value. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5q2DLSKq0
 

tigab95

Recruit
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Im sure having an overhead stance for spears would be possible. it would make sense too.Maybe a shorter range and faster attack but a bit less damage.Would help spear troops survive a bit more up close tho swords would still be better for that. :fruity:
 

Seek n Destroy

Marquis
WBWF&S
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Possible but doesn't work well because of the grip, it spins the spear each time it goes to another animations that isn't the overhead attack.
 

Jug of Issek

Recruit
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I hope that in your upcoming single player "improved" version you have complemented your beautiful latest mail hamatas etc with the " next generation " attractive female faces ( like in most current mods ) for the companions and court ladies ( at least ), along with Classical dress, and generally female - form - fitting clothing and armours - now that would be a work of art.
 

Seek n Destroy

Marquis
WBWF&S
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None of that so far unfortunately. What's the point of pretty ladies if they have manly bodies? Well some people might be into that not that I'm judging of course... 
On a serious note, doing proper female frames for all armors is a fair amount of work and the list of priorities in terms of models is pretty high already. I've had little to no time and not much contact with Rgcotl lately so I'd say he's taking a break as well.
 

matmohair1

Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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upcoming 2018 osprey titles...

Campaign

The Caudine Forks 321 BC

Elite

The Etruscans 9th–2nd Centuries BC

Combat

Roman Legionary vs Carthaginian Warrior: Second Punic War 217–206 BC
 

archaicwarrior

Sergeant
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matmohair1 said:






upcoming 2018 osprey titles...

Campaign

The Caudine Forks 321 BC

Elite

The Etruscans 9th–2nd Centuries BC

Combat

Roman Legionary vs Carthaginian Warrior: Second Punic War 217–206 BC
Thanks !  I'll keep an eye open for those books  :grin:

/
 

fysaga

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
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Hey, playing the campaign in the most recent version (2.55) and after some time in the campaign recruitment in villages is not possible anymore, every village has its troops set to 0. I am playing as mercenary for Macedon and am 10 days or so into the campaign, its not the first time it happened.
 

Seek n Destroy

Marquis
WBWF&S
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If the garrison of a nearby city or castle is low the troops will leave the village and join the garrison, new troops will be added to the villages after a few days.
 

fysaga

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
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Seek n Destroy said:
If the garrison of a nearby city or castle is low the troops will leave the village and join the garrison, new troops will be added to the villages after a few days.
Its every village on the whole map. Both times it happened after some days in the campaign when I entered a specifc village recruitment screen or tavern. First time was in a earlier version though.
If this is still working as intended never mind, thanks for the reply  :grin:.
 

Scuba Steve

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Seek n Destroy said:
Possible but doesn't work well because of the grip, it spins the spear each time it goes to another animations that isn't the overhead attack.
What about using the alternate mode function (like how Vikingr does it's overarm attack) so that the spear point is facing downwards like with a javelin? Then an overarm attack could look good. Though presumably it would likely only be limited to one attack direction.
 

Seek n Destroy

Marquis
WBWF&S
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That's what we have right now, bi-directional Vikingr style overhead attack. What's been suggested is a reverse thumb grip for the spear but I haven't found a good way to do that without visual glitches.
 

Scuba Steve

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Seek n Destroy said:
That's what we have right now, bi-directional Vikingr style overhead attack. What's been suggested is a reverse thumb grip for the spear but I haven't found a good way to do that without visual glitches.
What I mean is more how Vikingr uses the X key to change the stance, rather than the style of attack animation. That way the spear head could be pointed to the ground, and then the reverse thumb grip could be done without the visual glitch of the spear spinning around like in Lynores' overarm animation in the Peloponnesian War mod, while still keeping the two animations that are currently in use as well. 
 

Seek n Destroy

Marquis
WBWF&S
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Scuba Steve said:
Seek n Destroy said:
That's what we have right now, bi-directional Vikingr style overhead attack. What's been suggested is a reverse thumb grip for the spear but I haven't found a good way to do that without visual glitches.
What I mean is more how Vikingr uses the X key to change the stance, rather than the style of attack animation. That way the spear head could be pointed to the ground, and then the reverse thumb grip could be done without the visual glitch of the spear spinning around like in Lynores' overarm animation in the Peloponnesian War mod, while still keeping the two animations that are currently in use as well.
Any item/example in Vikingr where the stance for the spears are changed? Can't seem to recall any but I haven't played Vikingr extensively.
 

Scuba Steve

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Seek n Destroy said:
Scuba Steve said:
Seek n Destroy said:
That's what we have right now, bi-directional Vikingr style overhead attack. What's been suggested is a reverse thumb grip for the spear but I haven't found a good way to do that without visual glitches.
What I mean is more how Vikingr uses the X key to change the stance, rather than the style of attack animation. That way the spear head could be pointed to the ground, and then the reverse thumb grip could be done without the visual glitch of the spear spinning around like in Lynores' overarm animation in the Peloponnesian War mod, while still keeping the two animations that are currently in use as well.
Any item/example in Vikingr where the stance for the spears are changed? Can't seem to recall any but I haven't played Vikingr extensively.
Any of the spears in Vikingr, when you press X, you switch to an overhead attack animation like the one used in RaW by just using the up mouse direction. Vikingr only uses one mouse direction for polearm attacks, unlike RaW. I took some screenshots.

Item selection screen




Attack animations
Regular attack


After pressing X

For a reverse thumb overhand animation to look good, could press X to switch the weapon mode, which would have the spear head pointing down, then a reverse thumb overhand animation would presumably avoid the spear spinning around ugly like, and resemble how the throwing javelins animation looks.

Could probably be done using Somebody's OSP code "Alternate Weapon Modes" https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,292934.msg6963951.html#msg6963951