PS. If the short doru is made throwable, perhaps factions that have less spears (read: Romans) will benefit since they will face less spears in the melee.
I'd argue the exact opposite actually. Pila "counter" spears, but if spears were throwable then that counter wouldn't exist anymore. Sure it's true that romans need to hit and by extension the doru throwers would also need to hit for the benefit to exist, but the pila is more situational as it's worse in melee than a throwing doru would be. It's also not like other factions are worse in sword fighting than the Romans, just that romans have pila while others have spears and gauls have long swords. I'd imagine the throwing doru would do more damage than a pilum as well, essentially making it a 1-hit ranged weapon for classes that already out-range sword wielders in melee.
About the destruction of shields in Warband, it must be seen as an abstraction: either it has been made unwieldy to the point of near-uselessness by (a) throwing weapon(s) (e.g. as might have been the case with a heavy pilum), the wielder has reached a point where he can't effectively use the shield (due to, for example, weariness after having blocked ten hard blows in succession), or a great axe having worn him down or alternatively wrested the shield from his grasp (as is thought to've been a tactic during shieldwall fighting in the Dark Ages).
There is a problem with relating these two though. A very simple and real problem; we have reason to believe, based on sources, accounts and sagas, that Viking-era round shields were often made to be somewhat expendable. In ritualized duels men were said to go through sometimes seven or eight shields within the duel. And this very much seems like what native Warband's shield are based off of. Being that nords and smaller round shield exist there in Native, I think it makes decent sense too. But I simply do not believe the idea that large Thureos shields, or the nearly-twenty pound Roman scutum, or indeed, aspides, could be rendered fully obsolete by a handful of blows. The sole exception being very large and heavy weapons which due a great deal of damage, like as mentioned those two-handed etruscan axes, or falx-type weapons.
Antonis said:
Those two examples are made just to show that whatever the mod, it is engineered in the base game so, that you need a shield. In Rome at War, specifically, I tried with an Etruscan two handed axe in my current play through, but once I faced Roman armies or those Galatic spear throwers I quickly changed to shield and spear. My point is that if you make some or all the shields indestructible or near to that, when they are against less armoured enemies it can be bad for the late. Personally, I find that the statistics and values that there are currently in terms of defensive items are pretty good for game play. Making battles balanced, I think lots of good work has been done with that.
This is true. And ultimately it is up to the modders here to make their decision, and I am thinking they aren't going to change this aspect now, and I couldn't blame them either. But regardless, I think myself correct here. Depending on shield-type of course. For instance, those small bucklers that an archer might have in this mod are probably not quite so indestructible. But I hold to the fact that scutum shields and aspides are probably going to survive several battles. Such was not always the case, but to save yourself the costs of building, often an aspis could be handed down from father to son. (Granted, one might repair any major damage inbetween) A similar resilience for Roman shields I imagine; even though I'm sure they had the funds and industrial prowess to replace them, it was still a tough, durable campaigning shield.
Plus, I'll add that I think what you've observed about shields is exactly the case with them in reality. Frankly, unless you're decked head to toe in plate armor, you are generally far better off on any pre-gunpowder historic battlefield with a shield, especially a big one! That's why everyone used them. If you don't have a shield, you need to make up for this in some manner. Etruscan axemen indeed are glass cannons, and they should be, by virtue of having no shields and not usually having plate cuirasses.
Even so, to speak about the issue of people 'tanking' in multiplayer, Warband is still inherently balanced when it comes to attacking or defending. For the person to attack they need to release their defense, the only rare exception being those 'chambered' strikes which parry while striking. So fighting a person with a shield, without one yourself, can still be balanced so long as you are blocking their attacks. And frankly it should require more skill on the shield-less person's part, to make up for this.
I just believe that shields are, and should be, that useful in a melee fight. So without one you do have severe disadvantages. Your best chances are attacking in ambush, or as shock infantry who close into sword range very quickly to mitigate missile injuries, or of course, like much later on in history, being decked in full plate. But for that sacrifice, your heavy, beast of a two-handed weapon should be the only weapon really capable of wrecking shields with the level of ease they are now.
The way I see it, the rational, realistic and historic choice was to join the shield club and gain great defense (when blocking), or join the shock infantry club, and thus allow you to be capable of negating enemy shields.
---
There is also another small solution to this issue, but it's rather particular to a unit type. Europa Barbarorum has their Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi, (Thracians with Rhomphaias), equipped with a small buckler, strapped to their left arm. This avails then the ability to use a shield while also wielding a Rhomphaia. Probably less durable than large or curved shields, but it's something. http://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_rhompharoi_thorakitai.gif
Dansk viking said:
In any case, my suggestion would allow for both options since you would still be able to carry two pila (and with my suggestion you would choose the composition yourself: one or two, heavy or light, or one of both).
I actually do like this idea. It wouldn't hurt to let an individual choose one light, one heavy, two heavy, two light, etc.
Dansk viking said:
The spears in the depictions look very much like the shortest doru in the mod, and while the later doru may be rear-weighted I'd argue (without any prior experience) that it would be quite possible to throw a doru of that lenght, being a question of technique, but of course, likely not as optimal as a spear made specifically for throwing.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'll also point out that the vase-depictions are a bit unreliable, as are most sources about these times.
On the subject of sources, are there any good written sources about warfare during the Peloponnesian Wars that you could point me towards? I assume that the doru types that were in use up until the Hellenic period were based on those of that era.
I expect the vase imagery that have slightly strange proportions, or obvious exaggerations, to be slightly less realistic. But to paint them all as unreliable is to me pushing it. Especially when many, (like the classical one I showed), are extremely detailed and much better proportioned than previously. Anyway, as I've stated earlier in this thread.. and as I've seen shown in this game, every variant of Dory spear we see in RaW, is in fact rear-weighted, regardless of size. (I would also argue that none of these Dorata should be under 7', if anything they were getting longer by this period, not shorter, i.e.; the Iphikrates dory!)
Being rear-weighted, they are not good throwing weapons. The physics will want the spears to tumble in the air, since they'll want to lead where the most weight is. You probably could throw any dory, but not with the aichme (Spearhead) first. You'd have to flip it around to the sauroter and throw it that way. And if you're doing that, one must understand that sauroters were not all visibly weaponized. Being used for the purpose they were stated as being used for, (sticking in the ground), one imagines they will get relatively blunted at the tip fairly quickly. So you'd be throwing a gently-rounded-off, or blunted, spearhead toward an enemy. And you'd also be instantly reducing your attacking range to your sword. Which again is a terrible idea. Hoplitai were spearmen. Though the exact formation and appearance of what a hoplite phalanx looked like has been debated for decades, one certainly imagines they fought as a mass of spearmen. That individual hoplites' fighting potential is needlessly reduced if he casually tosses away his longest weapon. If he's on the front ranks, he'll have to contend with several long spears with his sword only now. Anyway, just to say that I don't think it's a great idea for any hoplite to do this. That's why they were accompanied by contingents of peltastai. Mixed hoplite fights ended in the archaic era, when they might stand beside archers on the front ranks as Promakoi. By the Classical era, it would be a bulk force of hoplites working together, with separate contingents of peltasts and other psiloi.
Dansk viking said:
On the subject of sources, are there any good written sources about warfare during the Peloponnesian Wars that you could point me towards? I assume that the doru types that were in use up until the Hellenic period were based on those of that era.
Sorry, I don't unfortunately. The only sources I've read first-hand regarding battles was Xenophon's Anabasis, which is Classical, and I've read battle scenes of the Iliad, which are of course Archaic (and should not apply to any later era, since the very manner in which they fought is unique to the period).
Lastly, for other reasons I'm going to have to agree with Joub. Dory should simply not be thrown. That's my stance on it as a hoplite enthusiast, nerd, and re-enactor. Most are markedly rear-weighted, and these things simply don't throw well. But more importantly, it's very 'un-hoplite-like', (classical-era forward) to throw away your main weapon, and your six-to-seven-foot range advantage over most enemy types. It should be as strange to your eyes as a polybian triarius throwing his Hasta! They need it for their method of fighting. On a side note, if pila do break shields after one or two strikes, well you'll know that would have me appalled, especially after all the videos regarding their usage that I've shown. If anything, (and I think Warband can do this already with heavy crossbows + poor shields), pila should have a chance of penetrating the shield and injuring the man behind. Think about that, it actually makes far more sense than the pila being a shield neutralizer, since in that sense it's no different than having any other annoying javelin sticking out of the shield. But unique to the pila (and to some degree maybe the soliferrum), it's the only javelin built to have a head that, once penetrating through the shield, can slide through easily on the thin iron shaft and strike the man behind it!
Pila don't destroy shields, gentlemen, they only make tiny holes in them. They should however have a chance of going through them!
I tend to agree with most of your points above. My main reason for suggesting that the doru should be allowed to be thrown is versatility; anything I could possibly do, I'd like to be able to do. It should not be as effective as proper javelins etc. (I guess anything other than damage would be hard to tamper with for dual-purpose weapons in Warband, otherwise I'd suggest a slower missile speed). If an enemy turns his back on me and runs, why, then I'd consider switching grip and throw the spear into his back - just like the picture from Osprey you posted earlier.
I've done this on occasion with the assault troop which is already in the mod and carries two doru type spears that are throwable (where I would make it one, obviously).
About the pilum, I'm not convinced that they weren't effective at neutralising shields: I'm not talking about destroying the structure of the shield, but rather rendering it useless on account of a 2 meter spear sticking through it, that (even in the videos you posted earlier) are not easily wrenched out - I'd like to see someone fighting on with that effectively. Now, I'd agree that there should be a possibility for the heavy pilum to penetrate through the shield and enter the wielder - and I believe I've seen that in another Rome-themed Warband mod; then again, it might make it way too powerful (unless there's only one per slot, and perhaps, the heavy one be pretty expensive to encourage people to bring mixed pila). I'm already quite concerned when I approach a large group of Romans with the pila at the ready, and if it was allowed to penetrate my shield and kill me in one go, well, that'd be terrifying. I therefore think a more balanced approach, for gameplay, would be to render the shield unusable rather than both destroying the shield and penetrating the body.
PS. On another note and another discussion, the whole question of overarm/underarm spear usage in antiquity seems to be quite misinformed since most YouTubers I've seen use spears that are not rear-weighted (an exception being this, though not very informative). Also, I just found this picture that shows a formation where they carry their spears underarm: doesn't seem very practical to me. Lindybeige, for example, argued that an overarm grip would endanger your allies behind you and next to you, but looking at that picture, the sauroter would be much more prone to hitting your ally when the spear is held underarm.
I tend to agree with most of your points above. My main reason for suggesting that the doru should be allowed to be thrown is versatility; anything I could possibly do, I'd like to be able to do. It should not be as effective as proper javelins etc. (I guess anything other than damage would be hard to tamper with for dual-purpose weapons in Warband, otherwise I'd suggest a slower missile speed). If an enemy turns his back on me and runs, why, then I'd consider switching grip and throw the spear into his back - just like the picture from Osprey you posted earlier.
As to anything you could possibly do, it would also be fairly effective sometimes to pick up a stone and hurl it at an opponent, but we can't do that. One could hurl anything from a helmet to shield at a foe, (there is talk of this in the context of a viking saga, but it was only in the case of a fleeing enemy), but not all of these things are easy to add in the game, or really a strong priority. If I was disarmed and had a man on the ground, I could grip my pilos helmet with two hands and bash the cone into his face, but we aren't going to go the distance in modding that into the game. That is indeed what's shown in that Osprey image, and it's shown in other fairly fanciful and creative images of hoplites. It's still not an especially good idea, and the spear still, as I've said a few times, is not really an exceptional throwing weapon unless you run up and throw it sarouter-side-first. Maybe it is more feasible at closer ranges. Or one could simply make a centrally-gripped dory model and use that one to do that. But it's simply not a norm for them. Not nearly so much as the pilum is dual-purpose, or the javelins are that many infantry-types in the Ancient world used were. It's a little heavy and long to make an excellent thrown spear. Ultimately it's up to the authors here. If you make a spear-type do it, it'd certainly make more sense if it was centrally-balanced.
Dansk viking said:
I've done this on occasion with the assault troop which is already in the mod and carries two doru type spears that are throwable (where I would make it one, obviously).
Dansk, the author(s) here have discussed already that that spear model is simply a stand-in for this current version.. they aren't intended to use Dory spears for throwing, but rather, some form of javelin.
Dansk viking said:
About the pilum, I'm not convinced that they weren't effective at neutralising shields: I'm not talking about destroying the structure of the shield, but rather rendering it useless on account of a 2 meter spear sticking through it, that (even in the videos you posted earlier) are not easily wrenched out - I'd like to see someone fighting on with that effectively. Now, I'd agree that there should be a possibility for the heavy pilum to penetrate through the shield and enter the wielder - and I believe I've seen that in another Rome-themed Warband mod; then again, it might make it way too powerful (unless there's only one per slot, and perhaps, the heavy one be pretty expensive to encourage people to bring mixed pila). I'm already quite concerned when I approach a large group of Romans with the pila at the ready, and if it was allowed to penetrate my shield and kill me in one go, well, that'd be terrifying. I therefore think a more balanced approach, for gameplay, would be to render the shield unusable rather than both destroying the shield and penetrating the body.
Who said it should have a 100% chance of going through and delivering instantly fatal damage? No no, that would obviously be OP and I'm not suggesting that. I suggest they have a chance to penetrate and deal damage, I never said how much. If the chance to penetrate is something like 30%, and the damage dealt is only as strong as one thrust, factor in the armor and the 70% chance it has of not damaging through shields, and I think it's a safe arrangement.
Again though, javelins don't render shields un-usable, they make them pretty annoying to use. What it would do is stop one in their tracks and force them to remove it, or advance without it. I would opt for stopping in my tracks. See, most ancient shields were long; rectangular or ovular, and so one can easily ground it and stand behind it, and fight behind the shield. It certainly would slow you down, but I don't buy that it definitely renders a shield obsolete. Especially for all those test results where the pila doesn't sail clean through. My vote would be to give it a chance of penetrating and doing some minor damage, and (if it's even possible to code), to allow it to add encumbrance to the shield you're currently holding.
Dansk viking said:
PS. On another note and another discussion, the whole question of overarm/underarm spear usage in antiquity seems to be quite misinformed since most YouTubers I've seen use spears that are not rear-weighted (an exception being this, though not very informative). Also, I just found this picture that shows a formation where they carry their spears underarm: doesn't seem very practical to me. Lindybeige, for example, argued that an overarm grip would endanger your allies behind you and next to you, but looking at that picture, the sauroter would be much more prone to hitting your ally when the spear is held underarm.
Pree-cisely! *sigh*, the fact remains that most youtubers don't know the first few things about this scenario. They have no concept of what vase imagery shows, and furthermore they often have no concept of a spear even being rear-weighted. It is a very old argument for instance that 'overarm spears reduce reach'. They most certainly do, but even using that, in the case of hoplites, as an argument against overarm is invalid, particularly when they state that old (why use a spear if you're using it in swords' range) nonsense. To which I'd like to tell them to grab a 7-9' pole, hold it at the center, and to observe for themselves how much range they get over any sword of this period. Furthermore, advancements in technique have also altered that scenario favorably. Namely, Thrand's videos and his 'gigging' style. (which, mind you, is not advantageous or beneficial if your spear is already rear-weighted and strongly tapered).
It's not only images like that which show hoplites using that fairly inferior style of thrust, even some hoplite groups swear by it. This is a whole other discussion, but essentially that version is what I would consider a rather feeble and anemic hoplite 'fail-anx'. (sorry, had to) When you tuck it under your shoulder you get a strike which has scientifically been proven to be the weakest out of all three grips.. you get a stance from which you cannot parry, and you have a scenario under which you're fully doomed once the opponent goes past the tip of your spear. And you're right, it is a scenario under which you will hit the ally behind you unless he's further away. Re-constructions thus put the first and second rank further away from one another. Because of this, the 'hoplite spears' are further apart from one another, lending each other less help and mutual support than otherwise. On top of that though, the couched stance cannot retract the spear further back, whereas with overarm you can raise it as far back and high as your arm goes, which means it slightly more range to attack under than the alternative.
Overarm in contrast allows three ranks to deploy closely, still fairly well-able to strike, and to support each other with spears not very far apart, such that moving one aside leaves one or two others ready to strike at your face. Putting a lot of men with long spears close together to each other on the front ranks make for a formation not many would want tussle with.
There is also a particular methodology one can use when striking and retracting, which has been thus titled a 'J-strike', due to the motion the arm makes holding the spear as it retracts. It is shown here, but that video with the outfitted hoplite shows something fairly similar anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5q2DLSKq0 (note that the one here isn't rear-weighted, though the technique is the same)
(It's one among a few reasons I'd insist we get an overarm animation working for this mod. Alas, I'd love to help but I'm no animator.)
As to anything you could possibly do, it would also be fairly effective sometimes to pick up a stone and hurl it at an opponent, but we can't do that. One could hurl anything from a helmet to shield at a foe, (there is talk of this in the context of a viking saga, but it was only in the case of a fleeing enemy), but not all of these things are easy to add in the game, or really a strong priority. If I was disarmed and had a man on the ground, I could grip my pilos helmet with two hands and bash the cone into his face, but we aren't going to go the distance in modding that into the game. That is indeed what's shown in that Osprey image, and it's shown in other fairly fanciful and creative images of hoplites. It's still not an especially good idea, and the spear still, as I've said a few times, is not really an exceptional throwing weapon unless you run up and throw it sarouter-side-first. Maybe it is more feasible at closer ranges. Or one could simply make a centrally-gripped dory model and use that one to do that. But it's simply not a norm for them. Not nearly so much as the pilum is dual-purpose, or the javelins are that many infantry-types in the Ancient world used were. It's a little heavy and long to make an excellent thrown spear. Ultimately it's up to the authors here. If you make a spear-type do it, it'd certainly make more sense if it was centrally-balanced.
Actually, the Víkingr mod had throwable stones, so why not...
You consider the pilum dual-purpose? Was it used as a spear at times? At least that would negate the theory of the bendy iron. In the mod, a pilum can be used as a melee weapon, which I thought was a mistake, but again, I'm no expert.
Childe_Rolande said:
Who said it should have a 100% chance of going through and delivering instantly fatal damage? No no, that would obviously be OP and I'm not suggesting that. I suggest they have a chance to penetrate and deal damage, I never said how much. If the chance to penetrate is something like 30%, and the damage dealt is only as strong as one thrust, factor in the armor and the 70% chance it has of not damaging through shields, and I think it's a safe arrangement.
Again though, javelins don't render shields un-usable, they make them pretty annoying to use. What it would do is stop one in their tracks and force them to remove it, or advance without it. I would opt for stopping in my tracks. See, most ancient shields were long; rectangular or ovular, and so one can easily ground it and stand behind it, and fight behind the shield. It certainly would slow you down, but I don't buy that it definitely renders a shield obsolete. Especially for all those test results where the pila doesn't sail clean through. My vote would be to give it a chance of penetrating and doing some minor damage, and (if it's even possible to code), to allow it to add encumbrance to the shield you're currently holding.
Random damage and chance is not very easy to get into Warband, so I assume it's either or.
Stopping and taking time to pull out the throwing spear/pilum is not something that can be modeled in the game easily, so again, it's about finding compromises. The encumbrance for shields with spears/javelins in them would be great, but I don't think I've seen it in Warband - RaW doesn't even use encumbrance from what I learnt recently: it doesn't matter how much armour you're wearing, you still run/accelerate at the same speed. In Víkingr, armour weight played a big role in movement speed. I think it made for a more realistic scenario, and the general lowering of acceleration also made for easier formation fighting.
Childe_Rolande said:
*sigh*, the fact remains that most youtubers don't know the first few things about this scenario. They have no concept of what vase imagery shows, and furthermore they often have no concept of a spear even being rear-weighted. It is a very old argument for instance that 'overarm spears reduce reach'. They most certainly do, but even using that, in the case of hoplites, as an argument against overarm is invalid, particularly when they state that old (why use a spear if you're using it in swords' range) nonsense. To which I'd like to tell them to grab a 7-9' pole, hold it at the center, and to observe for themselves how much range they get over any sword of this period. Furthermore, advancements in technique have also altered that scenario favorably. Namely, Thrand's videos and his 'gigging' style. (which, mind you, is not advantageous or beneficial if your spear is already rear-weighted and strongly tapered).
It's not only images like that which show hoplites using that fairly inferior style of thrust, even some hoplite groups swear by it. This is a whole other discussion, but essentially that version is what I would consider a rather feeble and anemic hoplite 'fail-anx'. (sorry, had to) When you tuck it under your shoulder you get a strike which has scientifically been proven to be the weakest out of all three grips.. you get a stance from which you cannot parry, and you have a scenario under which you're fully doomed once the opponent goes past the tip of your spear. And you're right, it is a scenario under which you will hit the ally behind you unless he's further away. Re-constructions thus the first and second rank further away. Because of this, the 'hoplite spears' are further apart from one another, lending each other less help and mutual support than otherwise.
Overarm in contrast allows three ranks to deploy closely, still fairly well-able to strike, and to support each other with spears not very far apart, such that moving one aside leaves one or two others ready to strike at your face.
There is also a particular methodology one can use when striking and retracting, which has been thus titled a 'J-strike', due to the motion the arm makes holding the spear as it retracts. It is shown here, but that video with the outfitted hoplite shows something fairly similar anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5q2DLSKq0 (note that the one here isn't rear-weighted, though the technique is the same)
(It's one among a few reasons I'd insist we get an overarm animation working for this mod. Alas, I'd love to help but I'm no animator.)
That is an excellent article. I read that one a few years back, (I have nerded over this particular bit of history tactics for a while). He's not wrong about the ease of use with overarm. He doesn't mention it, but it's also the only grip through which you could parry! Also, the particular issue with going from default stance to raising spears to attack has been solved some time ago, and I could even demonstrate that if need be.
Throwing a stone from the ground would be great, heheh.
And yeah, I believe there is at least one account of Romans being ordered to use the pilum as a spear. It certainly can function like one. Most models you see are able to do this. I can search for that particular quote tomorrow, but it could be used as a desperate effort against cavalry, since Roman infantry, as shortswordsmen, have ever been heavy-cavalry bait. When their spear-auxiliaries aren't around and they face horses, they are better off with even what small extra range a thrust pilum offers them. So my view is that RaW is completely correct in allowing them to be used in this manner. (Whereas I strongly suggest against that with the dory. And would also say their models need heavier sauroters or far more significant visual tapering to make sense. ) [sorry, don't hate me..your models are the best I've seen to date]
I'd like to add that I don't buy the soft iron shank idea even as a thought experiment.. If the shaft were soft (weak), it would not penetrate.. If the middle is bendy, it would not go far in at all before bending around some way or another. If it is stiff enough to punch a hole and glide through, it won't bend very easily at all. Just like every single video that seems to exist showing the pila.
I believe that Pierre fella who said the idea of a softened iron shank was really a modern invention to make the weapon seem more exotic. Because it wasn't enough to have a barbed shield-entering javelin whose pyramid-shaped head made extraction difficult. It also had to bend on impact and render shields obsolete. Mind you, I hear there is no reference to this phenomena at all. You would think for certain that these proud, xenophobic Romans would constantly gloat about how their dandy javelins removed hundreds of shields from the enemy at every throw. But I don't think that's the case. And I, as well as Thrand, thinks any 'bending' that did occur, occurred when furious gauls tried to extract them from their shields. (Them still being alive telling you that the pilum didn't one-shot them into the afterlife too).
Oh, there was also mention of Roman pila being thrown back at them at one point. That should be downright impossible if they bent easily.
I'll just toss in a couple of quotes: As Childe said on the assault troop:
Seek n Destroy said:
As mentioned multiple times the current throwing spears were just placeholders that were left in, I've switched the models with javelin ones for now as they were meant to be. They were intended as heavy peltast-like troops, manoeuvrable and still able to hold their own in melee.
As for encumbrance, it should be in, but how well it works currently is up to debate.
Seek n Destroy said:
I've recently rewritten the encumbrance script to take in account the weight of the items equipped (thanks to the newly added operations) rather than the arbitrary values used previously (armor X equipped -> Maximum speed is Y) and it now takes in account helmet, armor and greaves.
''Actually, the Víkingr mod had throwable stones, so why not...''
''You consider the pilum dual-purpose? Was it used as a spear at times? At least that would negate the theory of the bendy iron. In the mod, a pilum can be used as a melee weapon, which I thought was a mistake, but again, I'm no expert.''
Well it depends on what you really mean, it is true that Pilum's iron is specifically and masterfully crafted to bend, which is actually a hard process, but that does not mean it bends when you jab it to an opponent, the pilum especially early periods were really good spears able to pierce even maille, the reason why the huge thing about BENDING on impact is because the weight behind the pilum transfers into the iron shaft and thus it bends by all the shock and energy of the throw.. That is entirely different when you use it in melee.
''Actually, the Víkingr mod had throwable stones, so why not...''
''You consider the pilum dual-purpose? Was it used as a spear at times? At least that would negate the theory of the bendy iron. In the mod, a pilum can be used as a melee weapon, which I thought was a mistake, but again, I'm no expert.''
Well it depends on what you really mean, it is true that Pilum's iron is specifically and masterfully crafted to bend, which is actually a hard process, but that does not mean it bends when you jab it to an opponent, the pilum especially early periods were really good spears able to pierce even maille, the reason why the huge thing about BENDING on impact is because the weight behind the pilum transfers into the iron shaft and thus it bends by all the shock and energy of the throw.. That is entirely different when you use it in melee.
From a physical view, I'm with Lugo. The force excerted by the shaft after a throw is what bends the pilum. As for producing such weapons, read the following.
Sure, the ancient people didn't have accurate thermometers, but they, over years, would learn what cooking times (temperatures) did to metals. Based on these years of experimention they could feasibly produce metals of differing qualities, with some degree of certainty. To use a moderate anecdote, basically all moderm industry is based on a combination trial+error and wishful calculation. (Documented so we know what the **** we're doing. Withouth the trials though, we'd have nothing to go on.)
What does this have to do with Pilum melee/ranged? Well. The major difference between thrown and thrusted pila is the time of impact. With thrown, said time is far smaller, causing larger comparative stress to the materials than a longer period of force. Due to basic physics, a force over time will have the same effect no matter what, but with a limited time, the effect is different. This is where the material's qualities come into effect. Some materials are better at withstanding short-term high-stress and some at long-term low-stress, forces. You can mix said qualities ad infinitum, but the point remains: A people/culture with enough knowledge can experiment to get whatever qualities they desire out of their components. We are talking about centuries here, without information lost. Within the laws of physics of course.
Edit: It's worth noting that technology took hundreds of years to advance, rather than the few it takes in our current time period.
I still really doubt it, from a purely historical standpoint. I haven't seen a lot of evidence for it. A lot of what I'm reading here seems like conjecture. Now of course, it's possible, many things are possible, but where is the specific proof that pila were 'masterfully crafted' to bend when thrown on impact, but not when thrust, etc. Where is the proof that they specifically made it in such a way as to achieve this? Are there references of bending on impact? Of them rendering shields useless en masse and instantly?
From what I've posted, and what I've read before, the whole idea does appear to come from purely modern scholars' conjecture. I'm hoping there are clear sources to support what the two of you are saying.
[bearing in mind, I've never trawled Roman sources in detail, just discussed with a community of Roman re-enactors].
Sorry what? I wasn't saying that pila did or didn't bend, I'm saying that it would be possible (metallurgically) to make pila in such a manner that they'd be somewhat unlikely to bend when thrusted, but likely to bend when thrown. I'm not even saying anything about shields being rendered useless. From what I've seen, the bending is a fairly modern idea, yes, but it can be supported with math.
I very specifically avoided citing any historical sources, as I don't know of any, but the rest of what I said is fairly evident based on dug up metal items and the fact that the basic laws of physics aren't dependant on time period. As for "masterfully crafted", smells way too much like the katana disussions.
So in conclusion "Did pila bend thrown, not in melee": Historically probably not; metallurgically possible... eeh maybe.
Ahh, okay. I inferred the wrong position from that comment, then. I thought it was the metallurgical possibility that was being used to inform history.
So I couldn't disagree there. I would still love to see a functional example of this, surely within the budget(s) that some people have put toward testing other historical equipment out, perhaps someone who knows a good metalworker or armorer can try and fashion such a pilum, which remains stable while thrust but would be likely to bend, after piercing a shield, when thrown. I apologize if I sound too, er, pedantic or blasé about this, I just really fear that this image in mind was perhaps mostly crafted by modern enthusiasts projecting ideals onto history, and may get the better of people, such that we might think to inform history, rather than be informed by it. Surely if it be that such items are physically possible to make and get working, it is another matter to decide whether or not this was done, historically.
Alas, I suppose I would have nothing to fear here, as I don't think these modders are of the mind to do that kind of thing.
I think I've seen it before too, in one of those old dime-a-dozen Imperial segmentata mods; the pilum did massive damage to shields. I didn't question it at the time, but these days I would definitely contest it, specifically after seeing those test videos. But such is just my view on it. Perhaps there is good reason to be more optimistic to the idea, and other sources of information I haven't seen.
I'm quiet on the subject as I don't think I have much to add, and if I did I'd need to re-read a whole lot to back it up. From what I remember there's always cases that go on both sides of the spectrum concerning the pilum. That's from memory of course.
In the battle of Telamon it appears to have been terribly effective against the Gallic tribes but then again they were outnumbered and outflanked. There's not only the pilum involved but also the verutum of the Velites and that too can be quite nasty.
There's the Macedonian Wars where I expected it to be devastating against the Macedonian phalangites but from what I read it had little impact and it was mostly tactics that won the day or lost them like the battle of Magnesia against Antiochos...
Things need to be put in the context of the 3rd century B.C. too and not towards the early Imperial Rome era, different times and tactics so different needs and equipment. The javelin seem to have played an important part in the early Italian tribes warfare and seems to be one of the main weapon of most so I don't think it ought to be wise for Romans to go to war with only one pilum when their opponents are most likely carrying a significant number of them. I think it was Alexander of Epirus, the father of Pyrrhos, that got his army annihilated by the Lucanians and most of the casualties were inflicted by javelins but then again he had been betrayed and led into an ambush irc. Their javelins were similar if not the same as the Romans, when it comes to warfare I don't think they invented much, merely adopted what works best for them.
That sounds quite fair. They certainly did adopt quite a lot from others. From weapons and armor to the quincunx formation itself it seems.
A bit of a subject change, but in regards to animations, have any of you played that Fires of War mod? It's models and accuracy don't hold a candle to RaW, but I like some of the animations they used. In particular, the left-to-right one-handed attack and right-to-left one. It seems they're using that old Combat Animation Enhancement mod that came out ages ago. Have you considered those two attack types? I think they look quite good, better than native left and right 1h attacks.
They use the only overarm attack animation I've seen as well, though it doesn't look all that great. I'm a bit baffled that no one has created a better one; one that looks natural and less jittery, and doesn't see the front end of the spear sliding around for some reason. If I were an animator, I would seek to correct this.
Hmm, there's probably a better place or specific person that I should be asking this to, but it's in regard to the usage of a certain helmet for Koinon Hellenon here in RaW. Basically I'm eager to know of any depictions or proof that a certain helmet-type was in use by a faction at this point in history. I imagine this is pretty well-researched and accurate, just curious if there were any depictions of it being used.
We used a similar overhead animation in earlier versions and even with some tweaks it was awkward to use.
I've thought about adding the animations for the sword as you mentioned, we tested it somewhere around the release of 2.4 and if I remember correctly it was inadequate for multiplayer as it was too easy to spam.
I take that back! Having played a little more with that particular animation from that mod, it is indeed quite bad. I'm actually surprised someone could screw that up so badly. Ah well.
Well my curiosity was actually in regard to up-armored (cheek plates and neck guard) variation of the pilos helmet in use by Spartiates. I've seen it a few places; here, in art, in Europa Barbarorum II even. I'm just wondering if there's any solid first-hand evidence to tell us that these were definitely in use by Spartiates of this, or any era. I've talked to a few of my resident hoplite experts and they don't know of any first-hand evidence per se, but suggest that if these particular variations did come about, it was certainly in the Hellenistic era and after or during the reign of Alexander. The reason being at that time it appears quite frequently on Macedonian coinery. So, as of now, I know it's possible that Spartans used it, but I don't have anything as solid as a stele image, painting, textual reference, etc.
It's important for me as I intend to have such a helmet crafted for me by an armorer, and as part of a hellenistic Spartan panoply, I need to know it's degree of plausibility and historical accuracy.
For your viewing pleasure, a collection of imagery that show this.
http://puu.sh/oXfOm.jpg (Granted, this is either an Athenian or hoplite from Argos. Alpha on the shield, [which would be followed by a Rho, 'AR', for Argos])
*Clears throat* I'm a jerk for double-posting, but this one actually was a bit of a random suggestion which struck me the other day.
I see that the manner in which one holds an aspis, as dictated by the shared shield animations, leaves the design on the front somewhat crooked when held up. Feel free to point this suggestion out as silly, but do you think it would be possible or agreeable to rotate the designs on the front of the aspides, such that they are standing straight when held up in defense? Just as it looks a bit odd to have a grouping of hypaspistai with crooked episema.
While the animation might have looked better I guess you kind of understand now from a gameplay perspective how it's a bit iffy to use and predict as sometimes range detection doesn't work all that well. I'm willing to try again in the future now that Rgcotl has more experience on animations but ideally I'd like to have both the current overarm and the reverse thumb overarm animation. I don't know if we have some spare overarm animation in the files since those are fairly limited.
That type of helmet is fairly common in south Italy and there are some examples in Greece though, not certain if the Spartans were fond of it but they're known to use the Pylos en masse so they're bound to use some variants of it, arguably those weren't really the variants I intended for them to use. I wanted some low crests like used for the attic helmet both front and sideways for officers and some variants with laurels and/or engravings but those never got made so I resorted to what I had available.
I posted in the media thread the new aspis which has the correct position for the episema:
Probably shouldn't have faced the sun. I miss you 90 fps
Now I just have a few hundred more to make so they are all fixed.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
They have no concept of what vase imagery shows, and furthermore they often have no concept of a spear even being rear-weighted. It is a very old argument for instance that 'overarm spears reduce reach'. They most certainly do, but even using that, in the case of hoplites, as an argument against overarm is invalid, particularly when they state that old (why use a spear if you're using it in swords' range) nonsense. To which I'd like to tell them to grab a 7-9' pole, hold it at the center, and to observe for themselves how much range they get over any sword of this period. Furthermore, advancements in technique have also altered that scenario favorably. Namely, Thrand's videos and his 'gigging' style. (which, mind you, is not advantageous or beneficial if your spear is already rear-weighted and strongly tapered). 
)
