SP - General Rocks (looters, peasants) should not damage heavy armored units! Please have some sense about damage calc

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as i said, they ignore armor completely. once plate armor became commonplace, the personal arms of men-.at-arms and their enemies shifted to maces and warhammers. and rocks are obviously blunt weapons. i also see no reason to to change either damage or the ranged weapon of looters. it is good as it is. and again, they guarantee can't kill you with rocks either. this is how the blunt weapon damage modifier works since the original mount & blade.

That doesn't actually make sense. Maces and spiked hammers might be more effective against heavy armor, but they shouldn't ignore it completely. It's still a piece of fairly thick metal.

You're telling me you'd expect to get hurt if someone threw a rock at you while you were wearing a suit of plate armor? Come on man, it would just bounce off. Hell, have you seen the YouTube videos of 160 lb. longbows being fired by lifelong trained archers against actual medieval breastplates? Even those arrows bounce right off. A rock? Come on. Wouldn't do a thing.

I'm not saying Bannerlord should be true to life - indestructible plate armor wouldn't be that fun - but it's weird to have blunt weapons ignoring it (or whatever the value is now; I don't think it's actually ignored completely; maybe 50%?).
 
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unlike thin, pointed bodkin arrows, rocks have more weight and thus force behind them and a larger area of impact. the point is, you can do damage without penetratign armor. ever heard of blunt trauma?

also, let's not pretend rocks do a ton of damage ATM.
 
unlike thin, pointed bodkin arrows, rocks have more weight and thus force behind them and a larger area of impact. the point is, you can do damage without penetratign armor. ever heard of blunt trauma?

also, let's not pretend rocks do a ton of damage ATM.

Like I said, a fist-sized throwable rock wouldn't realistically affect plate armor, blunt force trauma or no. There's not enough force or mass behind it to result in damaging someone protected by plate armor. If it hit in the helmet, maybe? But not the breastplate, for sure. In game, I'm fine with rocks doing some damage just for balance reasons, but it should be very limited.
 
Really guys? What else have looters got going for them? They lack any armour, are forced to charge against overwhelming odds and are pitifully armed.
It's NOT about looters it's about heavy armor VRS ROCKS! I want to murder garrisons with impunity and some little stinky peasant (not a looter a peasant) threw rocks at me and hurteds me! It's stupid and there's no excuse for it!! I need that HP for when I'm done and I gotta go face the army that setting up behind me!
Make looters as strong as you want, just make armor APPROPRIATE!
I wish looter would actually loot and upgrade and run around with gear from the shops! But thats a different topic!
 
OP is right on the money with this.

This was an issue back in March when Bannerlord first came out and amazingly, it's still an issue in October.

Looter rocks invariably do chunks of damage (10-20) on every hit, no matter what armor you are wearing.

In my current playthrough, I'm playing on full difficulty and I grinded for hours to increase my Clan tier and wealth, so I could acquire some top-tier gear. Once I got my hands my hands on a nice set of armor, I set off with a few companions to stomp some looters just for fun. We bumped into a medium-sized group and faced off with them. I'm not going to bore you with the details of my epic looter battle, but needless to say I was pelted by 5-6 rocks in quick succession and lost 90% of my hp! I had to kite and cheese my way to victory after getting decimated by a few rocks. All of my companions were badly hurt and one was even knocked unconscious. By looters. This was not fun, it was tedious and frustrating.

I'm not blaming looters per se, or even their rocks (except for their accuracy -that is just stupid. These guys are unerring with their aim). I'm blaming armor and its functionality (or lack thereof) in Bannerlord.

I don't understand why armor is so ****.

I don't understand why something I have to grind so hard for, and invest so much time and capital to obtain, is fundamentally useless and has practically no effect on gameplay.

Seriously, your character might as well run around the battlefield naked -it would make no difference. That is how superfluous armor is in this game.


To clarify, I don't want the Bannerlord equivalent of an Ironman suit, I just want armor to have some functionality. High-end armor should make the attacks of weak units (i.e. looters) be of least concern (even on max difficulty) and allow it's wearer to tank at least a blow or two from elite opponents.
 
OP is right on the money with this.

This was an issue back in March when Bannerlord first came out and amazingly, it's still an issue in October.

Looter rocks invariably do chunks of damage (10-20) on every hit, no matter what armor you are wearing.

In my current playthrough, I'm playing on full difficulty and I grinded for hours to increase my Clan tier and wealth, so I could acquire some top-tier gear. Once I got my hands my hands on a nice set of armor, I set off with a few companions to stomp some looters just for fun. We bumped into a medium-sized group and faced off with them. I'm not going to bore you with the details of my epic looter battle, but needless to say I was pelted by 5-6 rocks in quick succession and lost 90% of my hp! I had to kite and cheese my way to victory after getting decimated by a few rocks. All of my companions were badly hurt and one was even knocked unconscious. By looters. This was not fun, it was tedious and frustrating.

I'm not blaming looters per se, or even their rocks (except for their accuracy -that is just stupid. These guys are unerring with their aim). I'm blaming armor and its functionality (or lack thereof) in Bannerlord.

I don't understand why armor is so ****.

I don't understand why something I have to grind so hard for, and invest so much time and capital to obtain, is fundamentally useless and has practically no effect on gameplay.

Seriously, your character might as well run around the battlefield naked -it would make no difference. That is how superfluous armor is in this game.


To clarify, I don't want the Bannerlord equivalent of an Ironman suit, I just want armor to have some functionality. High-end armor should make the attacks of weak units (i.e. looters) be of least concern (even on max difficulty) and allow it's wearer to tank at least a blow or two from elite opponents.
dont forget the bs in the end but sure its how you see things out from feelings so i dont judge you good sir because it happens to me as well at times





But sure if lets say 20 (14 in this case) throws 1 rock at you at the same time you bet your ass some of them are gonna hit of which i would have expected or else it would be laughable
 
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thread should be renamed to "i don't understand blunt damage, neither do i know that shields exist".
No its pretty clear in the title that OP dont want rocks to be able to damage hvy armor so they can laugh on looters and peasants being their overlords :wink: jk but sure if it is that much as they claim it to be (of which im gonna try out later but i cant recall it is from my last playthru with medium armor) then sure it needs to be reduced but not nullified
 
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you can't in all seriousness complain about armor not beign effective against weapons that literally ignore armor completely. if you want to intentionally handicap yourself by not usign shields against looters, then that's on you and not some "sErIoUs gAmEbReAkInG iSsUe!!11!1!!"
 
thread should be renamed to "i don't understand blunt damage, neither do i know that shields exist".

The whole purpose of high-end armor is create a build which doesn't require the use of a shield. More options for playstyles = more variety of gameplay = more satisfaction and enjoyment. Of course this particular one isn't feasible due to broken mechanics so it's either go swobo (hello multiplayer), traditional cav, or cheese as a mounted archer.

And I do understand blunt damage -completely, and I disagree 100% with how it's being implemented.

For example:


Code:
# You can modify the damage system by editing the following values:
# The first three values determine the amount which will be directly subtracted from damage due to armor.
# The next three values determine the percentage reduction from the damage.

armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.35
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.3

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.65
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 0.50

^ This is how damage types worked in Warband ^

It's centered around damage directly negated by the armor and the remaining damage taken reduced by a specific rate, with both values pending on the damage type hitting the armor. As you can see, armor only soaks 30% of blunt damage, while soaking 65% of cutting damage. Furthermore, the reduction factor determines how effective the armor is at reducing any further damage, with again armor having a favorable rate (1.00) against cutting damage, and much less so (.5) against blunt damage.

In the end, this meant that blunt was effective against armor, but it did not negate armor completely. It was simply the more economical choice of weapon type when facing a heavily armored opponent. Armor was still viable, and the higher armor value the better no matter what type of weapon was being used against it.

Factoring in the above information, I'd argue that Warband found a nice balance for different damage types and their armor penetration values.



That being said, here's how blunt damage works in Bannerlord:

It ignores armor completely

:unsure:

Considering how much care and effort went into Warband's formula to make the relationship between armor and damage types coalescent, I find the current Bannerlord calculation system to be extremely shallow and unbalanced.
 
Armor is being balanced right now it will probably come in 1.6.x or so. Working on armor values implies balencing the damage values (blunt damage is the biggest problem, imo). Rocks deal to much damage to all units, armor doesn't work.
I would propouse to reduce the damage of rocks, speacialy to higher tier armor;
Limit the number of rocks to 5 per looter;
Give looters random (with balence) low tier weapons - speacialy axes, spears and javelins;
Give some looters a shield.
 
thread should be renamed to "i don't understand blunt damage, neither do i know that shields exist".
Your posts could be renamed "I don't read or comprehend anything in the topic and just post the same wrong, ill-informed :poop: over and over", into the ignore pit you go.
shields are for babies
 
@Anushtegin Do you want to extrapolate on your opinion or will you simply continue down the immature/salty route?

Your posts could be renamed "I don't read or comprehend anything in the topic and just post the same wrong, ill-informed :poop: over and over", into the ignore pit you go.
shields are for babies

try reading and understanding my previous posts in this thread again.

BTW it's funny you say shields are for babies because i never use shields vs looters, nor do i use the highest tier armor available. and unlike you lot, have absolutely zero issues in dealign with them. so i don't go to the forums and complain about a non-issue. because that's what salty crybabies would do.
 
try reading and understanding my previous posts in this thread again.

I did, and they're short on reasons why you adhere to your particular platform, and heavy on dangerous misinformation, such as:

in the mount & blade games, blunt weapons ignore armor.

This is unequivocally false!

Blunt damage in Bannerlord may completely ignore armor, but not all Mount & Blade games. Warband had a very well thought-out and intuitive formula for damage calculation, which I shared a few posts prior, and this formula was used for Native Warband and all of its many mods (unless a modder decided they wanted to change the values -can't think of any examples though).

I think the older M&B titles handled the damage type vs. armor issue with pragmatism and balance, which is why Bannerlord's blanket formula of "blunt ignores armor completely" is drawing so much heat right now. There was never such a firestorm of controversy over blunt damage in Warband because the system was a fair compromise. I hate always having to go back to the Warband well, but it's the only example we have to go off of that was proven effective.



One of the reasons people want armor to be fixed in Bannerlord is because right now it's promoting passive and avoidant gameplay. Why take active part in a battle when even the feeblest of units can seriously injure you? Considering how long it takes to heal in the current patch (days and days of sitting in a settlement even with high medicine skill), why even take the risk? Just sit back f1 f3. The player is discouraged from taking an active role. That's passive, avoidant gameplay.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who considers the best part of a Mount & Blade campaign to be the early-mid game. This is before all the fiefs, the kingdom management, the politicking, the juggling of vassals and their happiness, before the endless sieges and watching wave after wave of troops head up the ladder. When you are just a lone adventurer starting off, you have a much more active role in your affairs.

Sure, the time where you and 3 companions fought off 12 sea raiders probably isn't that important of a battle on a macro level, but it was probably more fun than watching your 120 Crossbowmen sit atop a hill and mow down hundreds of Emir Atis' troops. Which event will you remember more fondly? The one where you personally cut down a few guys trying to drink from your skull? Or when you told your AI army to hold position here and sat back while their op bows did the rest?

I feel the core M&B experience is centered around those small-scale battles; the bandit hideout raids, rescue or ransom a lord (fighting your way out of the castle/town was the best), capturing the spy quest, assassinate the merchant, train peasant how to defend themselves. No surprise, all of these experiences revolve around active gameplay, where the player is personally engaged. The active engagement creates a positive feedback loop with chemicals in your brain, which make you want to do more of it.

On the other hand, the late game isn't as fun because it's more passive. The player does more delegating and giving orders than actual hands-on stuff. The more you conduct larger and larger scale battles and wars, the more you are severed from that visceral link to the core gameplay. You're just organizing armies, sending them up the ladder in sieges, decided who gets who fiefs, and making sure you have a steady supply of money and troops for your grind of a campaign. You are suddenly finding yourself compelled to go on not because you are having fun, but only because you want to see things through to the end and conquer all of Calradia.

Thus, which game would you like to play more, an active or a passive one?



This brings me back to armor. It's much easier to take part in active gameplay when you have functional armor. You spend less time getting knocked out, and/or less time recovering in a settlement and more time actually playing and enjoying the game. Armor that actually does its job and a damage system that is understandable and fair should be a win-win for both devs and the players. This starts with fixing armor values and how it responds to different damage types, particularly blunt damage.


as i said, they ignore armor completely
this is how the blunt weapon damage modifier works since the original mount & blade

Again, this is dangerous misinformation. A near-decade of Warband proves these assertions false.

With statements like these, you're re-writing the Mount & Blade franchise's history in order to push your own personal agenda, which is a fraudulent and deceitful thing to do.
 
so what, then i was under the false impression that armor did nothign against blunt damage in warband. it still does nothing in bannerlord. and all your whining about how you take damage in battle does nothing for me. apparently, unlike everyone else, i do not expect to get out of battles without scars. and if you want to get into personal combat more in late game, that's what tournaments and bandit hideouts are for.

again, if you don't use a shield, it's on you and not the game mechanics. it's the job of shields specifically protect from missiles and projectiles, not armor. if you were talkign about melee weapons, i might be willing to engange in a serious discussion. hell, if rocks would do more damage than what they do right now, i would consider this a serious discussion (and would use shields myself, which i again don't use against looters...).

looter are still by far the easiest troops to deal with, and if you can't avoid their stones, the only thing i can tell you is "git gud"...
 
Please, good people of the Suggestions forum, could we calm down a bit?
At least here we are proud with low levels of hostility towards each other, let's keep it that way, shall we!

The current damage calculations are that blunt damage does ignore armor. I don't know why it is so, and i don't consider it optimal, but since it was the only thing they could come up with after all these years, i guess it was the easiest way to balance blunt weapons and not make them completely useless when dealing with medium/low armor - have very low to mediocre speed and damage, but do good against heavy armor by ignoring their values, while doing worse with medium/low armor because of the fact that troops that wear those armors are faster and have faster weapons than heavy armored ones, and that you are not on par speed-wise with your blunt weapon's slow swings.

Since the formula doesen't seem it will change any time in the near future, i suppose the only way of balancing this at the moment is by tweaking damage and speed values.

Do note that when you are on a horse and ride even in a slight angle towards your enemy, any projectile has greater damage because of the relative speed calculation - your speed + enemies speed in the moment they throw the rock, sometimes that alone can double or triple their damage, which is logical in a physics based combat.

If you have specific suggestion of how to change the damage formula in a more logical and fair way, (possibly even includimg code changes), that would help this issue a lot!
 
I think Hans 77 said it well in just this one sentence:
Weak armor is promoting passive and avoidant gameplay.

@Piconi I hear what you're saying about speed and logic in physics-based combat, but, logic also dictates that a rock or crappy blunt weapon is physically likely to bounce right off of armor even at those speeds. If someone hits my legionary mail with a wooden ball-headed mace, it's realistically just not going to do anything.

Doing a flat double- or triple-damage of these weapons at high speeds isn't fun, it's annoying. From a player's perspective, charging around on your horse fighting and lancing people and weaving amongst the enemy while avoiding their spears, etc., is great, until suddenly you're instantly KO'ed off your horse from an (blunt / thrown) attack you couldn't even see coming. It turns something super fun into something that, frankly, sucks, in that instant. That's the "OK, it's time to turn off the game" moment. And why does anyone want that? It's not good for sales, it's not good for playability, nothing.

But the real issue with weak armor promoting passive and avoidant gameplay is a systemic one. It's not about logic. It's about identifying the fun parts of the game, and maximizing them. Combat - fun part of game. Maximize it. Weak armor against crappy blunt weapons? Minimizing it.

Balancing blunt weapons? Here's a super easy suggestion. Why not make them faster and more powerful, but only ignore half of armor. Or, why not just say that low tier blunt weapons don't ignore as much armor as higher tier blunt weapons? Then the really dangerous guys are the higher tier troops. Cool! Now it's fun because I have to worry about and target those very visible dudes with the super armor.

The problem is, balancing blunt weapons so that they are fun to use for the player currently is resulting in passive gameplay which is not fun for the player.

So, it's really a question of which one of these is more important:
- Long-term viability in combat by acquiring better armor at the expense of blunt weapons possibly not being used that often by players
- Blunt weapons being used more by players at the expense of players being able to engage more actively in combat and avoiding jarring, sudden deaths that are often challenging or impossible to avoid.

I would just way rather be able to survive for longer and give up blunt weapons entirely. There's enough danger with accidentally impaling myself on a peasant's pitchfork while charging at 300mph. But at least I can see and avoid that. I don't need rocks taking me down as well.

I think having high-tier blunt weapons ignore armor, while low-tier don't ignore as much armor, would fix the issue entirely.
 
Really guys? What else have looters got going for them? They lack any armour, are forced to charge against overwhelming odds and are pitifully armed. Are you really saying you need them to be weaker? If you want to rationalise it, tell yourself they're armed with slings. :smile:

To be honest, I'd be open to sling infantry in the game as a ranged weapon.

On another note, yeah, looters quickly become cannon fodder early in the game, unless in great numbers (which doesn't happen unless modded).



as i said, they ignore armor completely. once plate armor became commonplace, the personal arms of men-.at-arms and their enemies shifted to maces and warhammers. and rocks are obviously blunt weapons. i also see no reason to to change either damage or the ranged weapon of looters. it is good as it is. and again, they guarantee can't kill you with rocks either. this is how the blunt weapon damage modifier works since the original mount & blade.


Does blunt damage ignore armor completely as of 1.5.2? My understanding is that blunt damage does not ignore armor completely, although armor blocks a lower percentage of damage.

Edit:

Here are the formulas:

For Cut damage: magnitude* 100/(100 + armour) - 0.45* armour
For Pierce damage: magnitude* 100/(100 + armour) - 0.25* armour
For Blunt damage: magnitude* 100/(100 + armour)

So blunt damage does get somewhat absorbed by armor.



The full video is well worth a watch if you are interested in the mechanics.

Unless they've totally rebalanced it, blunt damage still gets partially blocked, but a smaller percentage gets blocked than cut or pierce damage.
 
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