RIP MP

HancockT35

Veteran
WB
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The next patch (this week) will bring nothing other than Xauna rework, new camel animations and a new loading screen for multiplayer. All the new things will be in the beta branch which we dont play in MP because there are no servers.
How do you know?
 

Davic

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNW
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At the very least, this patch should push the new TDM map into the stable branch where there are actual servers to play it on. I'm not really expecting much more for MP, although during the beta they never seemed to tease the big updates in advance at all so who knows.
 

eritchie

Recruit
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Let's not forget that "meaningful choices" also means literally nothing, ironically enough. What are they trying to say with that? My choice to trade armour for a sword isn't "meaningful" in any way that I can think of. Amongst classes, there are two kinds of situation with perks.

1) A clear meta which you can't avoid picking (Empire Legionnaires and Pila, shields on most starter classes, etc)
2) Changes which mean literally nothing for gameplay and therefore aren't "meaningful" in any sense (berserker axes, peasant weapons, etc)

Either way, your choices are either meaningless, or actively harmful to you. This isn't friendly to new or casual players who want to actually explore their interests (imagine someone picking Sturgian huntsman... yikes). It doesn't benefit competitive play, as hard metas are boring and bland to watch and play. And it doesn't give people a chance to play how they want.

Conversely, a warband-like system actually lets you make meaningful choices. Giving people gold and telling them to budget a combination gives them agency in developing a build. You, as a player, can decide what handicaps you'll accept, and what strengths you want to play to. That is infinitely more meaningful than, as Younes excellently put it: "pick[ing] the perk you like the most even though you hate all of them."

The difference between Warband and Bannerlord is like this: Warband's system gave you $100 and told you to buy whatever you wanted. Bannerlord offered you a choice between a pair of socks and a turnip. I know which one seems more meaningful and fun to me.
Completely disagree with this... And tbh so do most people thats why the multiplayer has failed.. The whole fun in multiplayer for me would be building up your characters skills and gear over time and playing with the same people on a regular basis.

I dont really care about an even contest all the time, its role play, if you have fought a lot you would be better at it and have better gear.. I love their being a real difference between the noobs and the vets it encourages you to get better...

Deathmatch and capture the flag are so boring after a while especially when you have to choose between the units in the SP it makes no sense. In SP i can play as my own character with my own gear and skills but not in MP? Why would anyone think that would work..

I want to join a guild and level various characters to fight against others in field and siege battle in an open world.. That would fit with the rest of the game!
 

Younes123

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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Completely disagree with this... And tbh so do most people thats why the multiplayer has failed.. The whole fun in multiplayer for me would be building up your characters skills and gear over time and playing with the same people on a regular basis.

I dont really care about an even contest all the time, its role play, if you have fought a lot you would be better at it and have better gear.. I love their being a real difference between the noobs and the vets it encourages you to get better...

Deathmatch and capture the flag are so boring after a while especially when you have to choose between the units in the SP it makes no sense. In SP i can play as my own character with my own gear and skills but not in MP? Why would anyone think that would work..

I want to join a guild and level various characters to fight against others in field and siege battle in an open world.. That would fit with the rest of the game!
Dude there are going to be mods for this who are going to do a way better job.
 

eritchie

Recruit
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I know they will make a persistent world mod. i still think its just a really odd idea in a game based around roleplaying and creating characters that you cant create one in MP... It just makes no sense to me!
 

RCC_God

Squire
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I know they will make a persistent world mod. i still think its just a really odd idea in a game based around roleplaying and creating characters that you cant create one in MP... It just makes no sense to me!
I mean that change is already filled by multiple niches, Pw, crpg and mercenaries
 

PijeIBije

Recruit
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From reading this thread alone one could imagine vanilla warbands mp class system was some genius thing. You guys really seem to forget that due to equipment setups not being persisted most players just clicked on best helmet, then best body armor (arms and legs not worth it) then one of the best weapon for a given faction and that's it. Most of the available items were hardly ever deliberately picked becuase stuff to the center of the screen was a straight up upgrade. Players that did maintain unique looks accepted the disadvantage of suboptimal gear, which was not that bad due to no stat tracking system in place and therefore no pressure to optimise your setup.
The proper customisation was provided only by advanced mods like mercs and such. In fact I was surprised TW decided to go with their own thing based on vanilla warband rather than take inspiration from mods that brought class system to another level.
Considering how varied MP mods were in warband there is no chance TW could provide all that by themselves. Allowing molding is the only way to not end up with MP worse than in the previous game. Their awkward class system will most likely be replaced by some mod anyways so why waste so mucn steam on that.
 

Younes123

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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From reading this thread alone one could imagine vanilla warbands mp class system was some genius thing. You guys really seem to forget that due to equipment setups not being persisted most players just clicked on best helmet, then best body armor (arms and legs not worth it) then one of the best weapon for a given faction and that's it. Most of the available items were hardly ever deliberately picked becuase stuff to the center of the screen was a straight up upgrade. Players that did maintain unique looks accepted the disadvantage of suboptimal gear, which was not that bad due to no stat tracking system in place and therefore no pressure to optimise your setup.
The proper customisation was provided only by advanced mods like mercs and such. In fact I was surprised TW decided to go with their own thing based on vanilla warband rather than take inspiration from mods that brought class system to another level.
Considering how varied MP mods were in warband there is no chance TW could provide all that by themselves. Allowing molding is the only way to not end up with MP worse than in the previous game. Their awkward class system will most likely be replaced by some mod anyways so why waste so mucn steam on that.
You pretend like there was nothing hindering people from taking the best weapons or armor *cough cough gold*

Warband class system didn't give stuff for free
 

PijeIBije

Recruit
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You pretend like there was nothing hindering people from taking the best weapons or armor *cough cough gold*

Warband class system didn't give stuff for free
There are no servers that prevent you from whipping out a greatsword the moment you spawn. The other items you get is helmet and body armor which game by itself gives you the best you can afford with remaining money. There is not much choice here. There is no viable "light 2 hander" and "heavy 2 hander".
In fact if you count reasonable loadout options for vanilla warband there is really no more of them than in BL. Following Swadia example:
Infantry: Best armor + (best 2h sword/1h sword+shield) + awlpike if you can afford it and really need it
XBow: Best armor + best xbow + best bolts + best 1h. The only real choice you get is weather to swap 1 bolts for a shield
Cav: (I play cav least of all classes) Best armor + best lance + shield + basterd sword/1h sword. The only significant choice I see people make is weather to get an armored or faster horse.
If you put above into BL system you will end up with less choices.

BL class system seems like extracting out all the best setups, adding price tiers and formalizing them into preset classes. It basically forces you to what you were doing in warband anyways, except now that it is actually forced it gives a negative feeling.
The real difference I think is that in BL cheap setups are actually significantly worse than they were in warband. In warband with default 1k gold you still could get the best weapon and potentially easily overcome the armor bonus of a player on a winning streak. That's why snowbawling wasn't as noticeable in warband - you could go naked, score a lucky 2h hit and the tide was turned. In BL it's much worse because poor players get both **** armor and **** weapons.

To be honest I can't imagine how could you possibly make a truly balanced progression system within a match itself. In real life for the looser, loosing more things accelerates his defeat. In gaming however we want to see comebacks, so as soon as you think of rewarding sides during a match, you immediately have to make that reward more of an illusion since you have to come up with some compensation for the loosing team.
 

DainMorgot

Regular
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Many players who played Swadia got leather armor and not mail/plate because of the movement speed. Many players played short sword for hilt slash speed capability. In mods like Mercenaries, many people played axe for speed and others iron axe for damage. People play different things, there is no ''best'' because personal style of fighting played a massive role. There are players who played faster and weaker lances because of the interrupt potential compared to heavy lances that worked great with speeding up. Warband had 10 times more depth and choice.
 

Revverie

Knight
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SA Warband clans are still alive and healthy, but this is an EA game anyways, once the clouds clear we will have our sunny Bannerlord MP... I hope? PW is going to be awesome tho
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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From reading this thread alone one could imagine vanilla warbands mp class system was some genius thing. You guys really seem to forget that due to equipment setups not being persisted most players just clicked on best helmet, then best body armor (arms and legs not worth it) then one of the best weapon for a given faction and that's it. Most of the available items were hardly ever deliberately picked becuase stuff to the center of the screen was a straight up upgrade. Players that did maintain unique looks accepted the disadvantage of suboptimal gear, which was not that bad due to no stat tracking system in place and therefore no pressure to optimise your setup.
The proper customisation was provided only by advanced mods like mercs and such. In fact I was surprised TW decided to go with their own thing based on vanilla warband rather than take inspiration from mods that brought class system to another level.
Considering how varied MP mods were in warband there is no chance TW could provide all that by themselves. Allowing molding is the only way to not end up with MP worse than in the previous game. Their awkward class system will most likely be replaced by some mod anyways so why waste so mucn steam on that.
While I agree people probably venerate the Warband equipment system a little bit too much, you ignore some of the other advantages as well, namely choice and adaption. Right now in the class/perk system of BL you frequently end up with dead equipment because the perk system forces you to take something, very often I spawn an infantry and find myself throwing stuff to the ground because I never wanted it. This is hardly a more efficient system. Whereas the equipment selection system allowed you to take exactly what you wanted and was very clear.

Similarly, it was very flexible in different game modes - duel server, I take a 2 hander only, battle server, I take shield, armour, 1h, and spear. Consistent system throughout allowing the player to do what they want. Right now people spawn in the "duel" server in BL, throw half their equipment away, do one fight, then have to change class because the gold system isn't sufficient.

The equipment system definitely could have been improved - the default should be much more viable so you don't have noobs spawning in cloth armour, and the upgrade system should be more about differences rather than straight up better equipment perhaps. But straight up removing it needs a really good argument and the current system doesn't provide that - it has many of the same flaws and few of the advantages.

I also don't necessarily trust the modding scene to fix a lot of things - Mercs, in my eyes, was crap, and the systems CRPG implemented seem as flawed as a lot of the Bannerlord new mechanics. At least TW is fairly accountable to the players and seems intent on improving the game even if that is slow and they make decisions I don't like - having half the MP scene move to something controlled by a couple of amateurs who will implement whatever they feel like has a high chance of going wrong.
 

DainMorgot

Regular
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I also don't necessarily trust the modding scene to fix a lot of things - Mercs, in my eyes, was crap, and the systems CRPG implemented seem as flawed as a lot of the Bannerlord new mechanics. At least TW is fairly accountable to the players and seems intent on improving the game even if that is slow and they make decisions I don't like - having half the MP scene move to something controlled by a couple of amateurs who will implement whatever they feel like has a high chance of going wrong.

I agree to this, while I am a diehard MERC fan, the mod was early abandoned and it had huge potential to attract both hardcore and casual players, while CRPG was totally a hardcore experience with the flawed systems you mentioned. I agree, also, that modders cannot fix everything.

I also agree on the unquoted part of your post where warband's adaptibility and choice is mentioned and that is exactly what I tried to visualize with my previous post.

Lastly, I believe the whole TW Dev MP team is actually consisted by amateurs.
 

Younes123

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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There are no servers that prevent you from whipping out a greatsword the moment you spawn. The other items you get is helmet and body armor which game by itself gives you the best you can afford with remaining money. There is not much choice here. There is no viable "light 2 hander" and "heavy 2 hander".
In fact if you count reasonable loadout options for vanilla warband there is really no more of them than in BL. Following Swadia example:
Infantry: Best armor + (best 2h sword/1h sword+shield) + awlpike if you can afford it and really need it
XBow: Best armor + best xbow + best bolts + best 1h. The only real choice you get is weather to swap 1 bolts for a shield
Cav: (I play cav least of all classes) Best armor + best lance + shield + basterd sword/1h sword. The only significant choice I see people make is weather to get an armored or faster horse.
If you put above into BL system you will end up with less choices.

BL class system seems like extracting out all the best setups, adding price tiers and formalizing them into preset classes. It basically forces you to what you were doing in warband anyways, except now that it is actually forced it gives a negative feeling.
The real difference I think is that in BL cheap setups are actually significantly worse than they were in warband. In warband with default 1k gold you still could get the best weapon and potentially easily overcome the armor bonus of a player on a winning streak. That's why snowbawling wasn't as noticeable in warband - you could go naked, score a lucky 2h hit and the tide was turned. In BL it's much worse because poor players get both **** armor and **** weapons.

To be honest I can't imagine how could you possibly make a truly balanced progression system within a match itself. In real life for the looser, loosing more things accelerates his defeat. In gaming however we want to see comebacks, so as soon as you think of rewarding sides during a match, you immediately have to make that reward more of an illusion since you have to come up with some compensation for the loosing team.
Yes but do you think this has to do with the game balance or the assets? There were not enough assets for example to describe what you call a "light two hander".

What you're more complaining about is the gold system which in its own has problems in warband. Yes you could get some of the best stuff but saying you could get the best full armor and best full sword at the same time is an insane claim because you couldn't.
 

PijeIBije

Recruit
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Yes but do you think this has to do with the game balance or the assets? There were not enough assets for example to describe what you call a "light two hander".

What you're more complaining about is the gold system which in its own has problems in warband. Yes you could get some of the best stuff but saying you could get the best full armor and best full sword at the same time is an insane claim because you couldn't.
The point was not that you got free equipment but that options were actually limited. In native the movement speed between no armor and heaviest armor was so tiny it was never better go naked (at least for the non duel god regular player). That means that even though the sum spent on the equipment varied the choice to get "best I can afford" is still a single choice, even if producing different results. And yes there were enough assets to represent different playstyles. Look at how much distinct were Mercenaries builds. There was a vast difference of speed and power between high agility, no armor build and it's opposite. All the flexibility warband system had comes from the fact that the learning curve was steep enough to allow experienced players fool around with equipment. Most items in warband are not sidegrades but upgrades.

Also, I don't like neither BL class system nor Native warband's that much. The most fun with tinkering with builds I had was in Merc mod in which it seems they aimed to make all setups viable by trading speed for armor/hp and power, so that no matter the equipment costs the overall combat value of builds remained equal (yes I know they didn't fully succeed at that). However TW clearly stated they are not interested in such balance by saying they want a knight to be overall more effective than a peasant, but cost more spawning money, so they sentenced themselves to this balancing hell where not only they will have to balance items between each other but also their combinations with different price pools and character stats so really good luck with that.
 

Younes123

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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The point was not that you got free equipment but that options were actually limited. In native the movement speed between no armor and heaviest armor was so tiny it was never better go naked (at least for the non duel god regular player). That means that even though the sum spent on the equipment varied the choice to get "best I can afford" is still a single choice, even if producing different results. And yes there were enough assets to represent different playstyles. Look at how much distinct were Mercenaries builds. There was a vast difference of speed and power between high agility, no armor build and it's opposite. All the flexibility warband system had comes from the fact that the learning curve was steep enough to allow experienced players fool around with equipment. Most items in warband are not sidegrades but upgrades.

Also, I don't like neither BL class system nor Native warband's that much. The most fun with tinkering with builds I had was in Merc mod in which it seems they aimed to make all setups viable by trading speed for armor/hp and power, so that no matter the equipment costs the overall combat value of builds remained equal (yes I know they didn't fully succeed at that). However TW clearly stated they are not interested in such balance by saying they want a knight to be overall more effective than a peasant, but cost more spawning money, so they sentenced themselves to this balancing hell where not only they will have to balance items between each other but also their combinations with different price pools and character stats so really good luck with that.
I'm talking only about native, nothing with mods. It's not new that native had issues that could have been solved but as we know native didn't get an update in like forever.

I think we can both agree bannerlord has a terrible way of balancing things as opposed to warband. Yes warband had issues but they could've been fixed a lot easier then what bannerlord is getting itself into now.
 

jon01

Knight
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There are no servers that prevent you from whipping out a greatsword the moment you spawn.
Yes, there are. The_Arena, WBMM, MadParty, NoRangedWeaponry, LastManStanding. Plus the many servers that were (more) popular in the past, such as IG_Battlegrounds, Wolfpack_Den, SiegeTrain and Native_Groupfighting. 1000 gold is the default setting for servers. Every major tournament set the gold to 1000. The Great Sword alone costs over 1100 gold, and it would be stupid to get it on all of those servers (except NoRangedWeaponry), because you'd get shot down by archers.

It's true that you start off with a lot more gold on a wacky server like TG_Arena, where there are guns and other strange things. Servers like those are the crazier, unruly side of the game, which is welcome and fun in its own right, but it barely counts as "Native Warband", and it certainly doesn't represent the competitive side of the game.

This is more like Native Warband:


There are no naked 2h feint spammers. It's just intelligent, passionate players enjoying a fun, skill-based game with impressive mechanics.

The other items you get is helmet and body armor which game by itself gives you the best you can afford with remaining money.
There is not much choice here. There is no viable "light 2 hander" and "heavy 2 hander".
In fact if you count reasonable loadout options for vanilla warband there is really no more of them than in BL. Following Swadia example:
Infantry: Best armor + (best 2h sword/1h sword+shield) + awlpike if you can afford it and really need it
XBow: Best armor + best xbow + best bolts + best 1h. The only real choice you get is weather to swap 1 bolts for a shield
Cav: (I play cav least of all classes) Best armor + best lance + shield + basterd sword/1h sword. The only significant choice I see people make is weather to get an armored or faster horse.
All of this isn't true either.
 

Radamant

Recruit
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All this aside, Armagan said South America servers were going to be a thing soon, only the server provider agreement was left.
Turns out that wasn't true lol, now Warband is more alive than ever here.