Retro moddng Genkokujo to M & B classic

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

Both the Yari and Naginata were used from horse back in the time period this mod covers but I agree that 'lancing' was not a distinct discipline or branch of any of the established ryu that taught  equestrian methods.

Yes, but unfortunately there are many people who have no idea about naginata being wielded from the saddle, I've even seen someone claim it was impossible to slash with pole-arms from horse back as they would lose hold of their weapon for some silly reason when hitting the enemy.
And then there was the preposterous claim that they couldn't have known the orientation of the blade, and that sankaku yari have blunt edges... (people who say things like that reveal a lack of knowledge and hands-on experience with antique naginata and yari, but they still dare to lecture other people about the subject).

 

[recluse]

have blunt edges...

To be fair even blunt edges would cause impressive cuts from horseback, but yeah, I really don't understand people being flabbergasted with the idea that naginata and (slashing) spear were that important. But I'm actually curious what's your take on why the naginata "fell out of fashion" ? I know that polearms and even longer swords were heavily restricted after a certain point, but naginata seemed to be phased out even before then.

Was it due to it's wide, sweeping strikes being less suited to a regimental combat? Was it due to spears being cheaper and easier to drill common soldiers, and nagamaki becoming more preferable for the bushi? Am I missing something?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

My guess is that it's because the things a glave. Glaves are rather good weapons to use against lightly armored enemies that you can hack apart. But when pike tactics become popular and armor becomes good enough that you can pull them off without a large shield a slashing weapon with little recourse in armor penetration loses a lot of its utility. You can't reach the enemy to hack him apart, and even if you did it won't do you any good. I know the Japanese newer really used shields. But still, the logic is there. At least that's what I think. Could be wrong of course. This is just guesswork.

 

[recluse]

You can't reach the enemy to hack him apart, and even if you did it won't do you any good. I know the Japanese newer really used shields. But still, the logic is there. At least that's what I think. Could be wrong of course. This is just guesswork.

First of all don't say never. Even if they did abandon hand shields by the Heian era, they still used giant sode for years. And even if you think that's a stretch, they still used siege shields to protect archers, sailors, and gunmen. And yes, I know I'm nitpicking.


Good point on the armor/pike reach.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

snip

Horseback combat was easy in the original m&b because the animations were weird and screwy. They were always horizontal and always hit the head. Back then it was easy to feel like a badass on a horse because it was basically click2kill.

Porting back to the original is rife with problems that are probably unsolvable. It would be easier to get the old horseback swinging animations and replace the new ones in Gekokujo. The main issue is that Warband's hitbox detection and hit physics are way more complex, so you might find yourself in a L'aigle situation where none of the attacks do anything.

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

But I'm actually curious what's your take on why the naginata "fell out of fashion" ? I know that polearms and even longer swords were heavily restricted after a certain point, but naginata seemed to be phased out even before then.
Was it due to it's wide, sweeping strikes being less suited to a regimental combat? Was it due to spears being cheaper and easier to drill common soldiers, and nagamaki becoming more preferable for the bushi? Am I missing something?

Well... nagamaki were most popular during the nambokucho war, they remained in use until modern times, but during the 16th century they were losing popularity to the point that it was almost gone by the 17th century.

As for naginata... they were never really phased out at all, they just became one of many choices of polearm, although infantry preferred to use yari during the 16th century, the weapon remained popular with nobles (mounted samurai).
And during the Edo period we see short naginata with short blades being used by women (naginata were part of a dowery).
The reason why naginata became unpopular for infantry use most likely had more then one reason, one reason might have been a shorter length when compared to yari (3 meters was standard length for samurai infantry, and 4.5+ for ashigaru).
However, I don't think that's it, because 16th century naginata were a good bit longer then Edo period naginata, and a bit longer then nambokucho period naginata as well.
Naginata of the 16th century measure about 2.5 meters in length, this indicates adaptation in order for the naginata to compete with the long yari of the sengoku period.

So what could have been the reasons then?
First and foremost it would have been money, during the 16th century there was a constant threat of war, and so many weapons and suits of armor were needed, to the point where they were often mass produced.
Spears were easy to produce in large quantities, as they often had short blades of simple design and construction, unlike naginata, naginata have a complicated blade cross section and are of a complicated construction because their blades were some 50cm long at the time and needed to be strong (long blades that have to hit hard needed to be made of several pieces of steel with a different carbon content, unlike a yari blade that's the size of a human thumb).

In addition, the very long nagae yari were easy to use for ashigaru, unlike the naginata that required skill to be used effectively.
The simple design of yari blades for samurai made them quick and cheap to produce, $$$ profit $$$ for any lord who had more money to spend on other important things... or just more weapons and armor for his men to get a bigger army.

My guess is that it's because the things a glave. Glaves are rather good weapons to use against lightly armored enemies that you can hack apart. But when pike tactics become popular and armor becomes good enough that you can pull them off without a large shield a slashing weapon with little recourse in armor penetration loses a lot of its utility. You can't reach the enemy to hack him apart, and even if you did it won't do you any good.

It's interesting to see that for those who had enough money to buy a weapon of their own choice for themselves (mounted samurai), did buy and use naginata, but not as often as omi yari or o-sasaho yari. (note: these yari types had a typical total length of about 2.7 meters, omi yari had longer blades though).
This implies that most mounted samurai preferred a weapon that was good at piercing armor, as these two yari as well as naginata were all good at slashing.

I know the Japanese newer really used shields. But still, the logic is there. At least that's what I think. Could be wrong of course. This is just guesswork.

You can't reach the enemy to hack him apart, and even if you did it won't do you any good. I know the Japanese newer really used shields. But still, the logic is there. At least that's what I think. Could be wrong of course. This is just guesswork.

First of all don't say never. Even if they did abandon hand shields by the Heian era, they still used giant sode for years. And even if you think that's a stretch, they still used siege shields to protect archers, sailors, and gunmen. And yes, I know I'm nitpicking.

Hand held shield were used for the last time during Gotoba's rebellion (13th century), if I recall correctly, but it was highly unusual at the time.

 

[Hasegawa_Taizou]

and what about late 16? i saw a picture of mounted samurai with little wooden shield on it. It didn't look ancient.

 

[recluse]

Thank you for your response Hidetora. You pretty much confirmed what I already suspected but it was a good read nonetheless.

Hand held shield were used for the last time during Gotoba's rebellion (13th century)

You did surprise me with this one, and just to be clear - we're talking about tedate and not a variation of tate?

and what about late 16? i saw a picture of mounted samurai with little wooden shield on it. It didn't look ancient.

I'd assume it's either: baloney, ceremonial, temporarily carried by a dragoon to be deployed later, or simply a piece of an old style armor mistaken for a dedicated shield.


PS: And I'm sorry for helping derail this thread, but I have a weakness for minute historical details and you lot seem like fine company.

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

Thank you for your response Hidetora. You pretty much confirmed what I already suspected but it was a good read nonetheless.

You're welcome.

Hand held shield were used for the last time during Gotoba's rebellion (13th century)

You did surprise me with this one, and just to be clear - we're talking about tedate and not a variation of tate?

I believe it was described as the last time tedate played a significant role in a battle, but it's been quite a few years since I learned of it, but then again, if they weren't tedate then they wouldn't have been mentioned as the last shields at all.
Any information about hand held shields in Japan are always vague and obscure, so we don't have much to go on.

and what about late 16? i saw a picture of mounted samurai with little wooden shield on it. It didn't look ancient.

Could it have been this picture that I had posted a long time ago?

PS: And I'm sorry for helping derail this thread, but I have a weakness for minute historical details and you lot seem like fine company.

Well, the OP did get the question answered, so I suppose it's no harm done derailing this thread a bit.
In my experience, people who collect antique Japanese armor & weapons are always fine company, a lot can be learned from people like that.
The same goes for historians... untill they disagree on something and want to kill each other, historians disagree with each other a lot, so I do prefer the company of collectors.

 

[recluse]

Fair enough. Actually, to use this snippet as a convenient example that even what we have generally adds to more confusion.

The same goes for historians... untill they disagree on something and want to kill each other, historians disagree with each other a lot, so I do prefer the company of collectors.

I felt the same way about collectors until I had to explain to a friend that his "authentic" WW2 SS iron cross was a WW1 Austro-Hungarian merit that someone soldered a sig rune on. I do believe that he's still pissed off at me.

Ultimately I feel that either experts or enthusiasts, when it comes to something you care about - you can't have 談 without 炎 

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

Fair enough. Actually, to use this snippet as a convenient example that even what we have generally adds to more confusion.

Yeah, that's a perfect example of the "vague and obscure" I mentioned alright.
One of the problems is that modern people like to label things and then stick with it, but then they get confused when it turns out that originally the item could have had a different name, or more then one name.
Considering the age of the text, they are probably talking about proper hand held shields, those also happen to be flat... but hey, it's debatable.

Yeah... that reminds of the word koshigatana, it's now mostly thought to be the old name for wakizashi, but people have argued that it may have been a synonym for uchigatana, now known as katana.
But it may also have been used for any sword or knive worn at the hip, so yeah... I just go with "the old name for wakizashi", because it's more convenient that way, that and it's mainstream.
But again, it's debatable.

So we get to have to deal with nonsense like that every now and then, I won't lose any sleep over it though, at most I just raise an eyebrow and think: oh... that's interesting!

I felt the same way about collectors until I had to explain to a friend that his "authentic" WW2 SS iron cross was a WW1 Austro-Hungarian merit that someone soldered a sig rune on. I do believe that he's still pissed off at me.

That's harsh, but it's not unusual for people to get agitated when they are told they bought junk instead of treasure, they want the item to be treasure so the expert's judgement must be wrong for about a day, then it starts to sink in they got burned.
Eventually, they will exept the truth, but they tend to be ashamed about their mistake and prefer not to talk about it.

Ultimately I feel that either experts or enthusiasts, when it comes to something you care about - you can't have 談 without 炎 

Indeed, I'm reminded of a a guy who obviously lacked the knowledge to appraise antique Japanese armor, he had bought a "master crafted russet suji kabuto" and was very proud to show it to all the collectors and he wanted a renowned antiquarian to give his opinion about the helmet.
Well... he was told the obvious, it wasn't a russet helmet at all, it was just one of many mutli plate helmets that was stripped of it's lacquer and thus worth considerably less then if it was still lacquered.
It was easy to see too, tiny bits of laquer were still visible in nooks and crannies, but that wasn't all that was wrong with it, it's flanges were slightly curved to the front as they went down the helmet bowl.
It was this that supposedly made the helmet a true master piece, but in reality it was just a helmet made by an amateur helmet smith who couldn't get the flanges straight.

The consultation became a very heated debate after that, the guy just couldn't exept the truth about him getting burned by a con artist (con artists are very common in Japanese antiques, particularly when it's about armor, because people just don't know anything about the subject, making them easy to fool).
Ah yes! The flames everywhere... it was a memorable event and everyone got a good laugh.

I do recommend people who want to buy their first piece of antique Japanese armor to study armor appraisal for a minimum of five years before they buy anything.
The problem with that is that most people just don't know how to acquire the much needed skill.

 

[recluse]

That's harsh, but it's not unusual for people to get agitated when they are told they bought junk instead of treasure, they want the item to be treasure so the expert's judgement must be wrong for about a day, then it starts to sink in they got burned.
Eventually, they will exept the truth, but they tend to be ashamed about their mistake and prefer not to talk about it.

I think what really burned is that while I'm far from an expert, it was clear that a different ribbon and a bit of grafting won't make a "SS iron cross" out of one of these:


Hell, I still don't believe that they ever used a dedicated iron cross to begin with, and I'm certain they didn't use one with Austrian colors... And that's not even mentioning the obvious heat discoloration around the centerpiece.

But yeah, some people fall in love with the idea of a certain item and good luck persuading them otherwise. Personally I'm more then satisfied with reproductions: they're cheaper, easier to appraise, easier to maintain, and usually just as good when it comes to a conversation.

antique Japanese armor

Speaking of this I was always curious about the whole concept of loan armor, or to be more specific how that relates to a warrior that owns his own armor but changes allegiance either due to desertion, clan desolation, or simply being a mercenary who was not needed anymore? Or even in the case where a clan loots stores of a different clan and decides to reuse perfectly good equipment.

I mean, would they even bother repainting their armor? (aside from obvious clan identification) Would they originally keep the armor in neutral colors and just depend on the sashimono and ribbons, and such to provide identification?

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

Speaking of this I was always curious about the whole concept of loan armor, or to be more specific how that relates to a warrior that owns his own armor but changes allegiance either due to desertion, clan desolation, or simply being a mercenary who was not needed anymore? Or even in the case where a clan loots stores of a different clan and decides to reuse perfectly good equipment.
I mean, would they even bother repainting their armor? (aside from obvious clan identification) Would they originally keep the armor in neutral colors and just depend on the sashimono and ribbons, and such to provide identification?

Owned armor and loan armor is all about being a noble or not, any samurai who owned some land had a decent income, they could afford a pony to ride on and buy high quality armor of their own choice (within their budget).
However, these samurai also had the obligation to provide their daimyo with 1 infantry for every cho of land.

Spoiler

(2.94 acres or just over a hectare at the time, in 1594 the cho was reduced in size to 2.451 acres or 0.9917 hectares)

These samurai infantry were quite poor, so they could not afford high quality armor, therefore each kibamusha had to buy loan armors for their men.

Owned armor was made of hardened high carbon steel welded on top of low carbon steel or wrought iron for extra strength, this made it expensive.
These armors can have any kind of mask.
Loan armor comes in two kinds, samurai grade loan armor, and ashigaru grade loan armor.
- Samurai loan armor lacks haidate and typically has 4 plates per kusazuri instead of five or more plates for owned armor, samurai loan armor typically also lacks a brigandine collar, their plates are simple in design.
They can have a simple mask that only covers the jaw and cheeks.
The steel is typically mild hardened steel, no soft iron layer is required for this, making it cheaper, altough not as strong as the high quality armor.
- Ashigaru loan armor looks crude and is made of wrought iron, besides the things that samurai loan armor lacks compared to owned armor, ashigaru loan armor also lacks sode, and their kote and suneate are of a more simple design with less armor coverage.
They also lack a mask.

Note that there may be exeptions for almost everything I mentioned, Like Tokugawa Ieyasu's gold armor looks simple and has only 4 plates per kusazuri, just like samurai loan armor, but it has haidate, and the steel quality is no doubt good.
Also, all grades of armor can be made of hardened rawhide, but combinations of iron/steel and rawhide are most common, and all armor grades may lack sode.


Ashigaru loan armor:

Spoiler

Samurai loan armor:

Spoiler

Some people like to buy kote and sode to complete their ashigaru loan armors, these result in a Frankenstein's monster.

The arms are high grade armor and clearly stand out, the sode also don't belong on this suit:

Spoiler

Here the hat and cuirass clearly don't belong together, the cuirass is owned armor:

Spoiler

EDIT: I forgot to answer this:

I mean, would they even bother repainting their armor? (aside from obvious clan identification) Would they originally keep the armor in neutral colors and just depend on the sashimono and ribbons, and such to provide identification?

Re-lacquering a lot of armor would have been very expensive and time consuming, so they would just change the family crests.
Every faction only ever used a few of the basic colors anyway (brown, black and red), and they were not specifically associated with a particular faction, although the Ii family ordered their men to use red lacquer.
So yeah, they would depend mostly on sashimono for identification.

 

[recluse]

Re-lacquering a lot of armor would have been very expensive and time consuming, so they would just change the family crests.
Every faction only ever used a few of the basic colors anyway (brown, black and red), and they were not specifically associated with a particular faction, although the Ii family ordered their men to use red lacquer.
So yeah, they would depend mostly on sashimono for identification.

Appreciate you confirming that for me. I've actually had an argument over at /tg/ just the other day with someone heavily influenced by TW Shogun, and it still amazes me how anyone would believe that an army would prefer paying for 50 fancy armors over say 250 (or even 51) plain, but equally effective ones.

Sigh. Same thing happens every time someone makes a game with praetorians dressed almost entirely in purple.

Some people like to buy kote and sode to complete their ashigaru loan armors, these result in a Frankenstein's monster.

The arms are high grade armor and clearly stand out, the sode also don't belong on this suit:

Spoiler

You can't account for taste, or being colorblind.

Tokugawa Ieyasu's gold armor looks simple

Considering some of the stories about his character that's just him sending an intentional message, or maybe even a joke of sorts. Just like his "cow armor"

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

Appreciate you confirming that for me. I've actually had an argument over at /tg/ just the other day with someone heavily influenced by TW Shogun, and it still amazes me how anyone would believe that an army would prefer paying for 50 fancy armors over say 250 (or even 51) plain, but equally effective ones.
Sigh. Same thing happens every time someone makes a game with praetorians dressed almost entirely in purple.

Yeah, people make all sorts of claims based on "I think" rather then "I know".
TW Shogun 2 has a particularly bad influence on people, they tend to think it's largly based on historical fact just because the developers consulted a well known historian, I like to call it "Total Fantasy: Shogun 2".

Considering some of the stories about his character that's just him sending an intentional message, or maybe even a joke of sorts. Just like his "cow armor"

Ah! So you've heard of the "Kanto cow" story.
Calling Tokugawa Ieyasu the Kanto cow was just incredibly rude of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, such an insult had to be answered one way or another, Ieyasu's solution shows off his patience and wits.
It was a very clever way to deflect Toyotomi Hideyoshi's insult.

His Armor covered in fur, the cow armor looks a lot more badass then it's nickname suggests:

 

[recluse]

Ah! So you've heard of the "Kanto cow" story.

I interpret that as a calculated gesture by Hideyoshi to put Ieyasu in his place, the fact that Ieyasu responded so brilliantly (and boldly) should've been a clear sign that he was an even greater threat. But yeah, considering his track record maybe Hideyoshi just decided that he would rather risk it then lose in straight up fight.

"Total Fantasy: Shogun 2"

Maybe we can get Creative Assembly to make youkai a playable faction in Shogun 3?

...Actually, that might be a good angle for my next Sugoroku playthrough.
I mean there's already kanabos and buster swords for the oni, and I'm pretty sure that I could rig some foxtails and such, cannibalize a OSP or two, adapt the temple/mansion code, maybe even add a few minor clans... Heh, it's a bit silly but think it could work?

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

"Total Fantasy: Shogun 2"

Maybe we can get Creative Assembly to make youkai a playable faction in Shogun 3?

In that case I want a special hero unit called Nurarihyon leading the Hyakki Yagyo.

...Actually, that might be a good angle for my next Sugoroku playthrough.
I mean there's already kanabos and buster swords for the oni, and I'm pretty sure that I could rig some foxtails and such, cannibalize a OSP or two, adapt the temple/mansion code, maybe even add a few minor clans... Heh, it's a bit silly but think it could work?

It could work, but when I think of all the mods that have monsters in them... I can't help but think it will look a bit silly, like as if they are just wearing costumes.
But If this ever becomes a reality, then I would like to see Tenko/Kyubi no kitsune.

And of course they should look like this:

Spoiler

 

[recluse]

loli Tenko

...!

Spoiler

A cheap but effective shot, well played sir.

It could work, but when I think of all the mods that have monsters in them... I can't help but think it will look a bit silly, like as if they are just wearing costumes.
But If this ever becomes a reality, then I would like to see Tenko/Kyubi no kitsune.

It would be more about adding troops and factions that look rather then play different, too many fantasy mods just have a ton of broken, high level troops running about slaughtering "rank and file" like nothing. And the real challenge would be making the extra bits (like tails) look decent without any physics, or with minimal clipping... Sigh, me and my big mouth. 

I'll be sure to pm you a copy if I manage.

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

A cheap but effective shot, well played sir.

high level troops running about slaughtering "rank and file" like nothing.

Yeah... that sure would be a problem, even normal mods have problems with high end troops butchering everything else.
It would certainly be difficult to balance out powerful youkai, less powerfull youkai, and human troops.

I'll be sure to pm you a copy if I manage.

Well if you ever do manage, then please do.
I bet Hasegawa_Taizou would also like a copy.

 

[Jamould]

The closest you'll get to Gekokujo in Mount and Blade classic, is the Onin no Ran mod,
which Ichimonji Hidetora is a developer of