[research] republican Rome

Splenyi

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My specialty is definitely with armour, weapons, personal decoration and the general appearance of a warrior and the way he dressed in the era.

Is there a certain spot I can find some of these discussions, information and decisions so far? Rather new here :smile:
 

Seek n Destroy

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The research threads are where we gather information and show players references from where we draw inspiration. We discuss with the players about history too as long as it has relevance to the topic subject (don't discuss tanks in the roman research for example). The decisions are made internally among the dev team. We do accept constructive criticism, even more if the claims are backed up with evidence.
 

Splenyi

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I sent you a PM Gothic Knight :wink:

I thought I might start with helmets. The Romans at the beginning of your mods time period wore a mixture of native Italian, Hellenic and Celtic helmets. Usually the Hellenic helmets where exclusive to the higher class warriors in Roman society, otherwise know as Eqvites and Triarii, because these classes where the most heavily influenced by Hellenistic culture, and still fought in much the same way as the mainland Greeks. It's possbile that some of the higher status middle-class also wore such armour. Here is a list of helmets that I believe to have been in use by the Romans in Italy during the starting date of this mod:

Italian Helmets
- Apulo-Corinthian
- Negau
- Italo-Chalkidian
- Etrusco-Thracian
- Italo-Pilos
- Samno-Attic
- Chalkido-Phyrgian

Greek Helmets
- Phyrgian
- Attico-Phyrgian
- Thraco-Attic
- Thraco-Chalkidian

Celtic Helmets
- Montefortino

I would guesstimate that 90% of Celtic helmets during this period where constructed from iron, and this had been the case ever since the turn of the 5th C BCE. These iron helmets, primarily the Montefortino, where what the Romans made their bronze and brass copies of. Celtic helmets that where made from bronze where either worn by the very poor, or by the very rich (a strange combination, I know :razz:).

I can post all the information you guys want for any of the helmets above, but I don't have much pictures, just a small amount of diagrams and illustrations for most.

Does this mod plan to do variant parts, as in, multiple Montifortino helmets with different decor, plumage, etc?

I can't post any more right now, but I'll get back here ASAP :wink:
 

Gothic Knight

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Pm rgl and ask for his skype. I won't be able to communicate with you guys until tuesday. We have reenactment screens of ornate montefortino cheekpieces so we might make variations. Also, an attic-chalcidian? Screens please?
 

Splenyi

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I never mentioned an attic-chalcidian helmet, unless you are suggesting it?

There is a very fine line between an Attic and a Chalkidian helmet. While there is no universal recognition of the specifics of these differences, to me it seems like the Attic helmet is always without a nasal guard, and always has the hinged cheek pieces, while Chalkidian usually have kthe cheek pieces attached to the bowl and always have a nasal guard. Sometimes the difference between the two helmets is so small, that the only way to tell one from the other is the shape of the cheek pieces. To make matters worse, sometimes the Chalkidian helmet will have hinged cheek-pieces, and no nasal guard. I know, it's bizarre. And that's why I think it's impossible to have an attico-chalkidian/chalkido-attic helmet :wink:
 

Splenyi

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Ah, the Thraco-Chalkidian helmet. It's definitely a rare case, and very hard to find an image of, or any reference to it's existence at all. The only quick picture I can find is from the Medieval 2: Total War mod, Europa Barbarorum 2.



A quick lesson about metallurgy (you guys probably already know, but anyway :razz:): Copper and tin make the alloy that was used for bronze helmets. So the more tin that is in this alloy, the stronger the metal is. Keep that in mind when your texturing the colours of the metal for your models :wink:
 

Big Daddy Vitallion

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It was brought to my attention that the Roman shields could use abit of a re-paint/model, so I scoured the internet searching for some kick-ass shield pics that i'd personally like to see implemented into the mod.


(Notice they all have the seam down the centre of the shield, with the pommel in the middle. That's something i'd quite like to see, makes the shield seem less cardboard.)

Next, i'd like to show some helmets I found. The current ones in the mod (especially for the standard infantry) have the right idea for the plumes, but seem a tad generic and bland with no real colour difference in the helmets themselves. So, like the shields, I found a ton of examples of what i'd like to see included. (Note that some of these are the same pictures as above, but pay no attention to the shield this time, rather the helmet).


(Note that they have the same triple-plumed design as the Samnites do in the current version, regional influences e.c.t.)

Sorry for the inhumane amount of sources, but hey, the more the better right?
 

alexbond45

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I'll add what I know

First thing is that it is not particularly known when Roman Hastati and Principes began using swords instead of the Hasta, or spear. It is correct on how the Hastatus and the Principe and Triarius are lined up by Social Class and a bit of senority in the Camillian system, and the Polybian was much more Senority.

In terms of helmets, the Hastatii generally had 3 feathers on their helmets.

The Hastati carried a Javelin and 1 Pilum instead of 2 Pila (later Legionarres carried 1 long 1 short Pila though, I think).

The major thing about the Camillian Armies is how while they worked in the sense that they conquered Italy and Sicily, Carthage was a serious threat to them and as such cause the brought on of the Polybian system, which allowed Rome to eventually beat Carthage in the 2nd and 3rd Punic Wars.

So the big thing about this period is really weapons and appearance. Obviously the Marian Reforms made Rome Standardize which made it ridiculously efficient.
The 2 Weapons that can be used for the Hastatii/Principes are the
1-Hasta
2-Gladius
The Triarii always carried the Hasta, and were very deadly in combat - seeing the Battle Line last.
So - a choice should be offered for weapon carried.

I think my brain just threw up onto this post, so apologies now for what may be fractured or not understandable




 

KickingJoub

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All I can really reply with is that the romans are based on the Polybian system, in which hastatii and princeps did indeed carry two pila and swords instead of spears. Right now we're not really looking for info on Rome though. Thank you for the input though :smile:
 

Seek n Destroy

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WBWF&S
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No idea, bottom one of P.37 appears on a Etruscan vase depicting a naval battle, most likely against Illyrian pirates but I've never seen most of these shields before and the art of this book is a bit strange to me in some pages, then again I can't read Cyrillic so hard to say what's going on there.
 

EFREM

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also page 36 I do not have any idea of where do these shields come from... I foresee Roman-Greek and Samnitic word, but nothing more.
what is the triangular shield?  and the helmet upon number 202 resembles a coolus with a nasal protection...
 

Gewehr98

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Unfortunately, I can't find good sources on what the Roman Forum looked like in 300 BC, but I have got it bracketed:

This is the 5th Century BC


This is probably before the time of Sulla, as he enlarged the Curia Hostilia and then it was burned to the ground in 52 BC.


I will do some more research to see what buildings were there and what buildings were not there in 300 BC
 

Gewehr98

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A bit of research on the toga:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aule_Metele


Making a Toga
First of all, start with the correct material.  The best choice is a light weight
wool flannel.  Do not use coat wool.  In Wilson's words, the material should
"have a moderate nap, so that the folds will tend to cling together".  In Wilson's
toga patterns the basic unit is defined as height of the wearer taken from the
base of the neck to the floor, with shoes on.  Girth is defined as the
circumference of the waist.  For each of these toga types the required
dimensions are:

Arringatorre
AB              Girth + 2 units
Aa and Bb    1/3 unit
CD              1 unit
cd                1 1/8 units



I am not sure how dynamic fabrics would work with the Warband engine, but maybe there's a way to dynamically fold the toga in Maya or Blender and export that folded shape as a static mesh for Warband?
 

Gewehr98

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FORUM ROMANUM, 300 BC (WIP)

Below I will keep a running tally of buildings that would have existed in the Roman Forum in or around 300 BC so they can be put into a proper scene of Rome.

The Forum Itself


Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus

Consecrated: Sept. 13, 509 BC
Location: Capitoline Hill
References:

The original temple measured almost 60 m × 60 m (200 ft × 200 ft) and was considered the most important religious temple of the whole state of Rome. Each deity of the Triad had a separate cella, with Juno Regina on the left, Minerva on the right, and Jupiter Optimus Maximus in the middle. The first temple was decorated with many terra cotta sculptures. The most famous of these was of Jupiter driving a quadriga, a chariot drawn by four horses, which was on top of the roof as an acroterion. This sculpture, as well as the cult statue of Jupiter in the main cella, was said to have been the work of Etruscan artisan Vulca of Veii.[7] An image of Summanus, a thunder god, was among the pedimental statues.[8]

Temple of Vesta

Rebuilt following Brennus' sack of Rome in 390 BC
At the eastern corner of the Forum Romanum

Text information on the temple

Temple of Saturn

*placeholder*

Temple of Castor and Pollux

*placeholder*

Regia

Location: On the Via Sacra, north of the Temple of Vesta
Built: During the Kingship of Rome

The surviving ruins in the forum are probably not from the original building. Destroyed by earthquake, fire or the sacking of the city, the original "Regia" may have been rebuilt in a different location.

The rebuilt structure (which seems to have been transformed into a private residential building sometime during the seventh or eight centuries) had an irregularly formed enclosed courtyard that was paved in tuff with a wooden portico. The interior was divided into three rooms with entrance from the courtyard into the middle room.

The West Room was the shrine of Mars, sacrarium Martis, in which the ancilia (shields) of Mars were stored. Here, too, stood the lances that were consecrated to Mars, the hastae Martiae. According to legend if the lances in the Shrine of Mars start vibrating something terrible would happen. They are said to have vibrated on the night of 14 March 44 BC. Caesar, High Priest at the time, in spite of the vibrating lances left the Regia to attend at the meeting of the Senate where he was assassinated.

The East Room contained a sanctuary of Ops Consiva, so sacred that only the pontifex maximus and the Vestal Virgins were allowed to enter it.

House of the Vestals

*placeholder*

Domus Publica

*placeholder*
 

Seek n Destroy

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WBWF&S
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Thanks, very appreciated. If you come across the plans of any major city of the era that would help too. We have some like Akragas, Philippi, Kassope, Capua and Paestum but we would really like to make all the settlements as close as possible.