- Best answers
well let us start research Ligurians here
EFREM said:A little bit of serious discussion about history won't be bad in the thread, e.g. Are we sure Ligurians were a celtic nation or they were only an Italic tribe? Romans considered Liguria being the part of Italy from Massa to the Alps of Valle d'Aosta and extending in width till Nice, During the Emperor Augustus however the regio Liguria was resized under the Po river: Will RaW have this kind of distribution betwen Ligures, Insubri in the centre of the Po Valley and Venetians-Illyrians in the East?
It's incredible that till Caesar the Romans had a so vague idea about the Celtic world...
Seek n Destroy said:You might just start paying attention to your neighbours when they come knocking on your door asking for their weight in gold
Concerning the Ligurians, their language and culture seems closer to the Celts than to any Italian tribe but at the same time different enough for them to not get along very well. I don't remember the Ligurians to be included in any Celtic field trip (Sack of Rome, Battle of Sentinum and the later battle of Telamon, etc...) but I've read mentions of them losing their territory in the north to Celtic tribes leading me to believe they didn't get along so well (a bit obvious heh). They didn't seem to be keen on fighting large scale warfare, they've been involved in skirmishes against Greek colonies such as Massalia (if I recall correctly), Etruscans and neighbouring tribes as mentioned earlier but not ambitious migrations or invasions, apart from that they served as mercenaries for Carthage and Syracuse which I guess dragged them into war against Rome and even with the Romans knocking on the door they tried to avoid taking on their legions toe to toe and eventually got themselves surrounded (the tactics from Russia didn't work there). Last mentions I have of them is that they ambushed a small legion ~200 B.C. inflicting substantial casualties but that just angered the Romans that proceeded to conquer what was left of them. After that it's pretty much the same fate of the other conquered peoples, they kept their identity for a bit serving as auxiliaries and still having a portion of the Empire named after them then they fade away from history.
All in all they are relevant but I'm not sure how we can pay them justice, we'll see. I'm personally more worried about the rest of the full Celtic tribes, trying to not make more of the same if you get what I'm saying.
There was somewhere a quote about Ligurians saying that they were harder to find than to defeat, from a certain point of view it's still true
EFREM said:I'd rather pay in steel my ransom
Against the opinion of supposed Ligurian weakness I quote Livy XL 38:
Ligures, qui ante adventum in provinciam consulum non expectassent bellum, improviso oppressi ad duodecim milia hominum dediderunt se.  Eos consulto per litteras prius senatu deducere ex montibus in agros campestres procul ab domo, ne reditus spes esset, Cornelius et Baebius statuerunt, nullum alium ante finem rati fore Ligustini belli.  Ager publicus populi Romani erat in Samnitibus, qui Taurasinorum fuerat. eo *** traducere Ligures Apuanos vellent, edixerunt, <ut> Ligures Apuani de montibus descenderent *** liberis coniugibusque, sua omnia secum portarent.  Ligures saepe per legatos deprecati, ne penates, sedem, in qua geniti essent, sepulcra maiorum cogerentur relinquere, arma, obsides pollicebantur.  postquam nihil impetrabant neque vires ad bellandum erant, edicto paruerunt.  traducti sunt publico sumptu ad quadraginta milia liberorum capitum *** feminis puerisque. argenti data centum et quinquaginta milia, unde in novas sedes compararent, quae opus essent.  agro dividendo dandoque iidem, qui traduxerant, Cornelius et Baebius, praepositi. postulantibus tamen ipsis quinqueviri ab senatu dati, quorum ex consilio agerent.  transacta re *** veterem exercitum Romam deduxissent, triumphus ab senatu est decretus.  hi omnium primi nullo bello gesto triumpharunt. tantum hostiae ductae ante currum, quia nec quod ferretur neque quod duceretur captum neque quod militibus daretur quicquam in triumphis eorum fuerat.
We are in the year 180 BC and Livy is talking about the transfer of the Apuani Ligures in Samnium.
As in the post above regarding the extension of the pre-Augustan regio Liguria, it's clear that under the name of Ligures a lot of tribes and people were included. Truth is that the northerner Etrurian border ended near Pisa and Massa, in the modern area of Garfagnana.
these places were inaccessible and even unhealthy, so that they continued to pillaging and warring till 180 BC against Rome. Before they were neutral or allied to Carthage during the III cent. After Hannibal's defeat they tried to devastate Pisa but they were repulsed. A war against Rome started. Consul Quintus Marcius Philippus was defeated in battle in 186 BC.
In their necropoli a lot of Celtic elements like scabbards, swords and lances have been discovered mixed with typical etrurian helmets (exchanges between these peoples were very developed). They were called Castellari because they used to shut themselves in castrum with their herds.
This is an interesting passage in Livy, because it corroborates the theory of the strenghtness of Ligures Apuani and offers a forced migration model. "Adventum in Provinciam" means area of jurisdiction of the magistrate, at the time however it means only the mandate, because Liguria wasn't a Provincia yet. it's strange that this particular time both consules were in charge of the same area of jurisdiction. As everyone knows one consul went to war, the other one stayed at Rome to ensure the conduct of civil activities. This campaign was very difficult and required so much military attentions? Or did Baebius and Cornelius act together, sharing the same politics, or did they wanted to establish a new Clientelar pool in the new area? Maybe both proposals were right, or maybe there is something more to be analized.
Behind the military hornatus rhetoric of Livy, the data of the money distribution highlights the forced migration as exceptional, not as much different from a forigiveable loan. What is the gain in giving so much money for 12 000 dediticii? the colonial method was the same used for Latin people with the typical process directed by agrimensores, the quinquemviri. an unsual respect the one the Apuani had, maybe because it was not a military victory but a diplomatic success obtained in a very peaceful way. Futhermore a clear sign is the Aerarius paid for the naval transport, why the Romans wanted to make peace with the Apuani, and why move them in the Samnium?
-first answer is because Rome wanted to control the Ligurian cost, and the only way was to pacificate the hinterland. In fact Ligures used to concentrate themselves in pockets of resistance (the well known tactics of guerrilla we said a lo of times); unforeseen attacks and then strategic retreats in castella. It's clear that after consul Marcus defeat at Saltus Marcius the Romans felt this problem as urgent. there were also the problem to secure the communication routes.That's why the wanted to move them from the mountains, making the Apuani the inhabitans of the coast, a sort of method to civilize them. it's not excluded the first phase of the migration regarded the transfer into the coast (Liguria is nowhere plain). Apuani however were forced to move another time, maybe to prevent their comeback to the mountains and that's why they offered hostages to be allowed to remain on the seaside. The consules decided for the Samnium.
- the area of the Samnium Cornelius and Baebius wanted to establish the Apuani was Irpinia, near Beneventum, on the ruins of Taurasia (see the eulogy of Scipio Barbatus), the countryside was exceptionally fertile and healthy, a paradise compared to the Garfagnana. In this area there was a lot of ager publicus, gained from the Samnitic wars, and the neighbours were not as much to be affected by the new population implant. In addition to that Apuani will be Romanized as fast as ever. they never tried to riot (diplomatic success- see what happened to Paeones in the Persian wars?), and more, after one year consul Fulvius transferred 7 000 other Ligures in the same Taurasia territory and they were welcomed by their fellow countrymen Livy XL 41, 3-4.
Tabula Alimentaria survived with the inscriptions of two places, remembered also by Pliny, the names of Ligures Baebiani and Ligures Corneliani in Samnium.
the Succes was celebrated by a victimless triumph (Livy contradicts himself!), the Romans this time won not using the force, but they were forced to come to terms with the Ligurian problem.