Reminder that even with an overwhelming negative response to the MP, Taleworlds won't change any fundamental design decision.

[AxiosXiphos]

The current system is too basic. Say I wanted a shield to counter couch lances as archer, but not to survive in melee nor prevent archer fire. I would not need to have big shield coverage, since it is moot against couch lances. I would want a shield with as little weight as possible, since i don't want to stay in melee, I want to run away. I would be happy to have little hp and armor value for shield too. The situation of needing shield to counter couch does not happen multiple times in a lifespan, but once.

So my option as sharpshooter is getting a huge, heavy shield. And I was ready to sacrifice a lot of stuff to optimimize my build, but this game does not allow me to use my experience and judgement to make those calls.

I could also imagine not needing foot armor as archer. Foot armor is used by riders and to prevent footshoots around a shield. I will not be holding up a shield against an archer, I willl try to countershoot him. So I should be able to make that sacrifice and cut the shoes.

But I am not allowed to make these calls...

*Edit* Finding a shield with great speed would also be important for me.

Time to play devils advocate. Let me start by saying I loved the Warband system for the decade we had it... however...

There seems to be a lot of false inflation here in actually how customisable the Warband System was. Let us take a comparison;

The Veagir Archer Warband Class - The Archery Options offered by the Battanian faction.

This would seem a fair comparison would it not? Veagirs are THE archer faction of warband, Battania are theoretically THE archer faction of Bannerlord.

The Veagir Archer had the Following Options:

4 Helmets, 4 Torso Armours, 3 Boots, 0 Gloves.
3 Melee Weapon Options
4 Bow Options
Two Arrow Options

(I personally don't count stripping naked as an option for a number of reasons; however include them if you wish).

Now Battania:

Two classes to pick from with different combat stats
3 Armour Options (Ranger, Fian, Heavy Fian).
5 Weapon Options (Hatchet, Woodaxe, Mace, Highland Two-Hander, Highland Noble Twohander)
5 Bows (Short Bow, Fast Short Bow, Longbow, Yeow Longbow, Faster Release Longbow)
2 Arrow Options (Arrows, Strong Arrows)
Option to pick additional arrows.

Now bare in mind we know there are additional perks coming, game mode specific perks and cosmetic options... You have lost some of the flexibility of the system granted; but this is marginal and mostly just selecting helmets/torso armour independently. Independent location armour is also gone (which is a huge shame mind you) but I felt this was often abused in the warband system (the no shoes, max armour archer is just silly).

One note on this - independent armour location values are not actually gone; just disused. Any mod can implement this system if they so choose very simply.

I'm sorry but I fail to see the dramatic difference between these two systems... Yes some items are tied to other options (the better melee weapons to the more expensive class). However you actually have more weapon options overall. Different classes compare differently of course; however when it comes to melee factions often have 3 or even 4 different classes to pick from for a similar comparison.

It's also worth considering the value of these options. In warband a full equipped veagir archer was still a sub-par melee fighter. Their armour was reasonable but their best melee option is a weak one handed weapon. In addition they were still lumped with the dysmal veagir archer stats;

So even if you picked up better melee equipment; you would be at a considerable disadvantage in melee.

Battanian Fian however are not only worlds about Rangers in melee competence; but are so powerful they could be considered an off-shoot of the Battanian melee builds. I have certainly picked Fian many times with no intention of ever using the bow.

So in summary:

The Veagir archer offers much more flexibility on a lower range of options (many of which are not-impactful).
The Battanian (archers) offer linear choice on a greater range of options (of which many are much more impactful).

P.S - I know many of you will be unconvinced by this argument; and I do not wish to start a fight about it. Nor am I totally bias towards bannerlord in this aspect; I could take or leave either system - I don't feel it makes a significant difference.

 

[DainMorgot]

I've literally only just come back to these forums after years absent and I've noticed in a few threads that the devs have been quite cooperative, I'm really not sure what the problem is? It's a beta and things take a long time to improve, as they always do with beta's.

I literally got linked to a thread from mid 2020 where someone was saying about the lack of medium infantry with spear/shield and one of the devs literally said they wanted that too.

Regarding it being a core design issue, the class system isn't inherently a bad system; this would be relatively easily tweakable to add a couple more customisation buttons to each class to further customise, there are lots of possibilities within the current class system, just need to give them time to develop it.

I don't know if i'm just new around here or what but it seems to me that the devs are working on singleplayer and multiplayer is coming second; that doesn't mean that multiplayer won't be developed it just means that their core market is singleplayer players.

Patience my friends, patience.

If you were missing the last years, then maybe you should do some research first. Also this is not a beta. It's EA. But I agree with you, the game feels like beta.

 

[KSHMR]

Time to play devils advocate. Let me start by saying I loved the Warband system for the decade we had it... however...

There seems to be a lot of false inflation here in actually how customisable the Warband System was. Let us take a comparison;

The Veagir Archer Warband Class - The Archery Options offered by the Battanian faction.

This would seem a fair comparison would it not? Veagirs are THE archer faction of warband, Battania are theoretically THE archer faction of Bannerlord.

The Veagir Archer had the Following Options:

4 Helmets, 4 Torso Armours, 3 Boots, 0 Gloves.
3 Melee Weapon Options
4 Bow Options
Two Arrow Options

(I personally don't count stripping naked as an option for a number of reasons; however include them if you wish).

Now Battania:

Two classes to pick from with different combat stats
3 Armour Options (Ranger, Fian, Heavy Fian).
5 Weapon Options (Hatchet, Woodaxe, Mace, Highland Two-Hander, Highland Noble Twohander)
5 Bows (Short Bow, Fast Short Bow, Longbow, Yeow Longbow, Faster Release Longbow)
2 Arrow Options (Arrows, Strong Arrows)
Option to pick additional arrows.

Now bare in mind we know there are additional perks coming, game mode specific perks and cosmetic options... You have lost some of the flexibility of the system granted; but this is marginal and mostly just selecting helmets/torso armour independently. Independent location armour is also gone (which is a huge shame mind you) but I felt this was often abused in the warband system (the no shoes, max armour archer is just silly).

One note on this - independent armour location values are not actually gone; just disused. Any mod can implement this system if they so choose very simply.

I'm sorry but I fail to see the dramatic difference between these two systems... Yes some items are tied to other options (the better melee weapons to the more expensive class). However you actually have more weapon options overall. Different classes compare differently of course; however when it comes to melee factions often have 3 or even 4 different classes to pick from for a similar comparison.

So in summary:

The Veagir archer offers more flexibility on a a low range of options.
The Battanian (archers) offer linear choice on a greater range of options.

Your view on things is too simplistic.. Stating that all that is lost is ''some flexibility'' is largely derogating the old customization system. Let me elaborate on this so you understand where the majority of the community is coming from. First things first, yes we do have quite a few options available at the moment, though some perks are useless and almost never used. The warband system allowed for full customization. An example, let's take the one you described in your post.

4 Helmets, 4 Torso Armours, 3 Boots, 0 Gloves.
3 Melee Weapon Options
4 Bow Options
Two Arrow Options

4x4x3x0x3x4x2=1.150 different combinations
For Infantry, the amount is significantly higher because of shields being added (4 options in Warband?)
This is not even considering the naked option, where No gloves or No helmet is actually quite common, adding more options.

We have lost a lot of flexibility, and with that the joy of playing this series. At least, I have, and I know that many others have quit the game too, in their eternal wait for Mods.

The problem is more than obvious.

 

[DainMorgot]

Time to play devils advocate. Let me start by saying I loved the Warband system for the decade we had it... however...

There seems to be a lot of false inflation here in actually how customisable the Warband System was. Let us take a comparison;

The Veagir Archer Warband Class - The Archery Options offered by the Battanian faction.

This would seem a fair comparison would it not? Veagirs are THE archer faction of warband, Battania are theoretically THE archer faction of Bannerlord.

The Veagir Archer had the Following Options:

4 Helmets, 4 Torso Armours, 3 Boots, 0 Gloves.
3 Melee Weapon Options
4 Bow Options
Two Arrow Options

(I personally don't count stripping naked as an option for a number of reasons; however include them if you wish).

Now Battania:

Two classes to pick from with different combat stats
3 Armour Options (Ranger, Fian, Heavy Fian).
5 Weapon Options (Hatchet, Woodaxe, Mace, Highland Two-Hander, Highland Noble Twohander)
5 Bows (Short Bow, Fast Short Bow, Longbow, Yeow Longbow, Faster Release Longbow)
2 Arrow Options (Arrows, Strong Arrows)
Option to pick additional arrows.

Now bare in mind we know there are additional perks coming, game mode specific perks and cosmetic options... You have lost some of the flexibility of the system granted; but this is marginal and mostly just selecting helmets/torso armour independently. Independent location armour is also gone (which is a huge shame mind you) but I felt this was often abused in the warband system (the no shoes, max armour archer is just silly).

One note on this - independent armour location values are not actually gone; just disused. Any mod can implement this system if they so choose very simply.

I'm sorry but I fail to see the dramatic difference between these two systems... Yes some items are tied to other options (the better melee weapons to the more expensive class). However you actually have more weapon options overall. Different classes compare differently of course; however when it comes to melee factions often have 3 or even 4 different classes to pick from for a similar comparison.

So in summary:

The Veagir archer offers more flexibility on a a low range of options.
The Battanian (archers) offer linear choice on a greater range of options.

P.S - I know many of you will be unconvinced by this argument; and I do not wish to start a fight about it. Nor am I totally bias towards bannerlord in this aspect; I could take or leave either system - I don't feel it makes a significant difference.

That's because Warband's system was taken directly from single player and the game was made by what, 5 guys? Yet, it still has better freedom and variety of combinatons than the **** that is bannerlord. I understand your post, but it's meaningless. Nobody likes the class system. You might give the best reason ever and defend it but people do not like it, at all. The ideal bannerlord would be warband's equipment system with the variety of a mod like mercs or crpg. Also, the perks that are coming are also meaningless. If more people are to be attracted to the multiplayer of BL, it will be done through major overhauls. The battle mode, armor cosmetics and a few extra perks wont hold anyone for long. Why exactly should I play BL, where I play my favourite faction once every 2 days, unable to customize anything and meet the same 10 people over and over again, when I can play bannerlord online that has 4k players daily at all times with total freedom of building my character, future implementation of territory pvp? Or even warband, that has 3 times more players than bannerlord?

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I literally got linked to a thread from mid 2020 where someone was saying about the lack of medium infantry with spear/shield and one of the devs literally said they wanted that too.

Why do you think this proves anything other than the criticisms lol? How long does it take to add a medium infantry with shield? More than 9 months?

They either can't do it because the class system is too clumsy and interlinked, won't because they don't actually want to, or are being extremely slow about it for some reason. All of these tie into the valid criticisms people are making.

So even if you picked up better melee equipment; you would be at a considerable disadvantage in melee.

Archers in Warband were better in melee because their combat movement speed was closer to that of infantry, they did less damage and had a slight movement disadvantage. In BL if you aren't moving directly away from an infantry as archer you are going to be kicked due to the extreme movement disparity, which isn't fun for anyone.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

4x4x3x0x3x4x2=1.150 different combinations

This however assumes that these are all impactful options? And I can promise you the vast majority are not.

Archers in Warband were better in melee because their combat movement speed was closer to that of infantry, they did less damage and had a slight movement disadvantage. In BL if you aren't moving directly away from an infantry as archer you are going to be kicked due to the extreme movement disparity, which isn't fun for anyone.

This disparity is pretty huge in Warband actually... there is a kicking issue in bannerlord I agree - but movement disparity was not the reason this didn't exist in warband.

 

[Younes]

This however assumes that these are all impactful options? And I can promise you the vast majority are not.

They do not have to be impactful. For pete's sake man, i could give less care about balance. I want to have fun.

 

[KSHMR]

This however assumes that these are all impactful options? And I can promise you the vast majority are not.

Even if we were to assume that half of the choices were meaningful, it would far outperforming the current system. The current system is absolute dogs***. Even with all changes being made to the current system, I don't see a healthy solution to this except entirely overhaul the system.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

They do not have to be impactful. For pete's sake man, i could give less care about balance. I want to have fun.

Wasn't the entire argument for the old class system that is was better for tournament play and more flexible?

If fun is your goal - then I'd argue I'd prefer pure cosmetics. Let me take better looking costumes without having to take rubbish stats.

Even if we were to assume that half of the choices were meaningful, it would far outperforming the current system. The current system is absolute dogs***. Even with all changes being made to the current system, I don't see a healthy solution to this except entirely overhaul the system.

I wouldn't even argue that a 10th of these options were impactful personally. And if options are your only concern then surely more perks is the solution anyway?

 

[Forsee]

Equip system could be better, but that's not that big problem. It might work well if the game would actually work and allow us to join the server. It needs good balancing as well (which tw always failing at), but the whole class system isn't that bad. There are several major problems that should be fixed at any costs if they want mp to be somewhat alive:

1. ****ing crashes and other bugs are making this game unplayable at this moment. At least they should fix crashes, fix attack and block delays, fix menu lags and so on
2. Time showed that balancing is definitely not their strong suit, they should delegate it to community.
3. Game is missing some obvious and mandatory features, such as viewing mode, replays, rmm, dedicated server and so on. I'm not even talking about mandatory qol things that not implemented yet for some reason, for example I still can't check nicknames of my party's members
4. Combat needs some kind of reworking, 2m kicks, swing arcs, not-working-chambers, horse's wwsswwss and other combat things should be reworked

When these things would be fixed, class system would fit in everyone's expectations cause combat will bet satisfying and enjoyable, all other is not that important for this game

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Equip system could be better, but that's not that big problem. It might work well if the game would actually work and allow us to join the server. It needs good balancing as well (which tw always failing at), but the whole class system isn't that bad. There are several major problems that should be fixed at any costs if they want mp to be somewhat alive:

1. ****ing crashes and other bugs are making this game unplayable at this moment. At least they should fix crashes, fix attack and block delays, fix menu lags and so on
2. Time showed that balancing is definitely not their strong suit, they should delegate it to community.
3. Game is missing some obvious and mandatory features, such as viewing mode, replays, rmm, dedicated server and so on. I'm not even talking about mandatory qol things that not implemented yet for some reason, for example I still can't check nicknames of my party's members
4. Combat needs some kind of reworking, 2m kicks, swing arcs, not-working-chambers, horse's wwsswwss and other combat things should be reworked

When these things would be fixed, class system would fit in everyone's expectations cause combat will bet satisfying and enjoyable, all other is not that important for this game

Now THIS I agree with. These are the issues stopping the MP from growing. I really feel the class system is the wrong hill to die on.

 

[Younes]

Wasn't the entire argument for the old class system that is was better for tournament play and more flexible?

If fun is your goal - then I'd argue I'd prefer pure cosmetics. Let me take better looking costumes without having to take rubbish stats.

They are not wrong that the old class system offers a lot more flexibility. Explain to me how designing a perk system that gives 2 perk slots with both 3 options each is easier to balance? You mess up one of those 3 options slightly better and here you have a meta.

Contrast it to warband where you could easily raise or lower the price of armor or weapons if it exceeded the price/efficiency.

And before you come to me about people taking the same equipment and all that, those situations only happen in a competitive environment. The casual side would not care for a dime about "what armor is the best for my price" and will just go with what they can afford.

Equip system could be better, but that's not that big problem. It might work well if the game would actually work and allow us to join the server. It needs good balancing as well (which tw always failing at), but the whole class system isn't that bad. There are several major problems that should be fixed at any costs if they want mp to be somewhat alive:

1. ****ing crashes and other bugs are making this game unplayable at this moment. At least they should fix crashes, fix attack and block delays, fix menu lags and so on
2. Time showed that balancing is definitely not their strong suit, they should delegate it to community.
3. Game is missing some obvious and mandatory features, such as viewing mode, replays, rmm, dedicated server and so on. I'm not even talking about mandatory qol things that not implemented yet for some reason, for example I still can't check nicknames of my party's members
4. Combat needs some kind of reworking, 2m kicks, swing arcs, not-working-chambers, horse's wwsswwss and other combat things should be reworked

When these things would be fixed, class system would fit in everyone's expectations cause combat will bet satisfying and enjoyable, all other is not that important for this game

Could be better is an understatement, the perk system is a failure, a failed attempt of 8 years of development, yes you've heard me right. 8 years of development for their "flexible" class system.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Wasn't the entire argument for the old class system that is was better for tournament play and more flexible?

No, the argument has always been it offered more flexibility, more customisation, more personality, and created a system able to be transferred across all game modes easily whilst having parity with single player.

When these things would be fixed, class system would fit in everyone's expectations cause combat will bet satisfying and enjoyable, all other is not that important for this game

Pretty much this. Class system is meh but not the worst thing in the game and can be adjusted to be satisfactory, the rest is a greater priority.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

No, the argument has always been it offered more flexibility, more customisation, more personality, and created a system able to be transferred across all game modes easily whilst having parity with single player.


Pretty much this. Class system is meh but not the worst thing in the game and can be adjusted to be satisfactory, the rest is a greater priority.

I agree entirely with this. I won't begrudge you the class system - Warband was certainly much more flexible. But I do think in the list of MP priorities it is rather low. I get people would like it to change; but would really the current MP setup with different classes be much better...? I fail to see so.

 

[Brandis.]

@Brandis. You summed it up perfectly last month in this post. I could never put my thumb on exactly why the class system was harder to balance. You nailed it perfectly here.

I have a longer post elsewhere, but essentially if you’re designing a MP game to be easy to balance, the two factors you should be looking at are pick-rate and win-rate.

This is hard to do in skirmish because many times people are playing as classes for reasons other than because that class is strong. For example, if you end up with 100g left in a round, your decision making is nonexistent and there’s only one class you can play. Additionally, each faction has a different gold structure, so a 120g class pickrate for one faction will be different than a 120g class in another faction even though they cost the same. That’s not related to “what is strong?” and doesn’t tell the devs much on what to balance.

Unfortunately that’s just one example, there’s a lot more problems as well.

 

[Younes]

Class system isn't the top priority obviously, it is considerable less work to make a good class system then make a good combat system.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I agree entirely with this. I won't begrudge you the class system - Warband was certainly much more flexible. But I do think in the list of MP priorities it is rather low. I get people would like it to change; but would really the current MP setup with different classes be much better...? I fail to see so.

Think people are frustrated because it was called out as an issue on day 1. I agree it's not a priority now, but that's because so much else is a mess and needing fixed and we're running out of time.

The class system has still ultimately failed even by their own goals, we are just stuck with it now until a mod comes along and proves 10x as popular instantly.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Class system isn't the top priority obviously, it is considerable less work to make a good class system then make a good combat system.

You will judge me for this... but there is another reason I care less for the class system.

Mods can change/fix the class system - really quite easily. Servers working, combat mechanics working etc etc; these can't be so easily fixed. As long as the foundation is fine - M&B can flourish - and IMPO the class system is not part of the foundation.

Think people are frustrated because it was called out as an issue on day 1. I agree it's not a priority now, but that's because so much else is a mess and needing fixed and we're running out of time.

The class system has still ultimately failed even by their own goals, we are just stuck with it now until a mod comes along and proves 10x as popular instantly.

i honestly just feel it isn't finished yet. We are still waiting for game-mode specific perks, cosmetics and a 3rd perk slot. All this will help considerably. Overall I don't consider the class system a failure in vison - more in production. And the last thing I want is Taleworlds starting from scratch ?

 

[Younes]

You will judge me for this... but there is another reason I care less for the class system.

Mods can change/fix the class system - really quite easily. Servers working, combat mechanics working etc etc; these can't be so easily fixed. As long as the foundation is fine - M&B can flourish - and IMPO the class system is not part of the foundation.

Combat is a bigger foundation then the class system, but the class system is still a significant role in the game.

The main issue is that for both the class system and the combat system, TW made very questionable decisions. Obviously the crush on all weapons was probably the biggest fiasco and honestly has made me realize that TW didn't know what they were doing.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Combat is a bigger foundation then the class system, but the class system is still a significant role in the game.

The main issue is that for both the class system and the combat system, TW made very questionable decisions. Obviously the crush on all weapons was probably the biggest fiasco and honestly has made me realize that TW didn't know what they were doing.

I agree that was very dumb. Anyone could see that was a bad idea... I cringed a lot during that period. Though it got removed; just like block delay to be fair.

Also thank the old gods for this at least...

That was probably my biggest gripe with MP right now... so that's a start. Assuming it works.