Recruiting mercenary clan while have no money exploit

[mexxico]

Today while examining daily payment codes I see that even you recruit several minor clans and even you cannot pay their daily expenses it seems nothing bad happens. Even after a time if they leave you because getting better offer from another kingdom you can recruit them back again without any money in your pocket. Only negative effect is player's gold goes back to 0 after each daily payment tick. Did you realize this exploit or used this or have any info / save file about this situation?

What I see from code if player cannot pay mercenary expenses daily kingdom debt increases only and this hold you at 0 money until you pay this but you continue having these minor clans.

I have 2 additional rules in mind to solve this exploit but wanted to get info from you first if there is that kind of exploit in game.
1-Any king cannot recruit mercenaries when he/she hasn't got X * Y money. (X = demand of mercenary per influence, Y = 30 (a constant)) When you try to recruit them and you haven't got (X * Y) denars they say "you cannot afford this".
2-When a king's money goes 0 and his/her kingdomDebt variable goes above 10K all mercenaries left that kingdom. Maybe we can make it at 10K first neutrals left at 30K friends left.

 

[sniparsexe]

I didn't try this before, but I can test it if you want.

1-Any king cannot recruit mercenaries when he/she hasn't got X * Y money. (X = demand of mercenary per influence, Y = 30 (a constant)) When you try to recruit them they say "you cannot afford this".
2-When a king's money goes 0 and his/her kingdomDebt variable goes above 10K all mercenaries left that kingdom. Maybe we can make it at 10K first neutrals left at 30K friends left.

these sound good btw

 

[mexxico]

Any tests or info are good. I see this exploit not in game (or streams) but at code.

 

[Dabos37]

I can confirm this. I have recruited a mercenary clan (Company of the Golden Boar) while having 0 denars, and anything bad does not happen while having an Expected Change of -5K denars every day. I could provide a save game if necessary.

 

[sniparsexe]

Any tests or info are good. I see this exploit not in game (or streams) but at code.

alright I'll test it and let you know.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Fixes sound good, although idk if I like going 30k into debt.

To be honest I’ve never hired a mercenary as a king because I simply don’t have time to find/chase them. Give remote communication please (pigeon messengers w/e). I think it will be important for clan party directives too (please don’t force us to chase them to change directives) ?.

 

[Dabos37]

To be honest I’ve never hired a mercenary as a king because I simply don’t have time to find/chase them. Give remote communication please (pigeon messengers w/e). I think it will be important for clan party directives too (please don’t force us to chase them to change directives) ?.

Yes, same here, today has been the first time I have recruited a mercenary clan. It is really hard to have to find the clan leader to do it, while you are involved in wars. We need some kind of messengers or something else.

 

[sniparsexe]

to be honest I’ve never hired a mercenary as a king because I simply don’t have time to find/chase them.

agreed

 

[mexxico]

It seems because of less people use this mercenary hiring feature this exploit did not seen / used much yet, also players do not like staying with 0 money of course (second reason). Ok so it seems you want to do these kind of stuff via menu or messenger instead of dialogs. I will give this as suggestion.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

It seems because of less people use this mercenary hiring feature this exploit did not seen / used much yet, also players do not like staying with 0 money of course (second reason). Ok so it seems you want to do these kind of stuff via menu or messenger instead of dialogs. I will give this as suggestion.

Could not have put it better. Thank you

Spoiler

There is a mod that does messengers really well and will even let you choose if it is instant or takes some time, can anyone remember what it is and link it? I am failing to find it

 

[sniparsexe]

It seems because of less people use this mercenary hiring feature this exploit did not seen / used much yet, also players do not like staying with 0 money of course (second reason). Ok so it seems you want to do these kind of stuff via menu or messenger instead of dialogs. I will give this as suggestion.

Thank you!

 

[whentheragequithappens]

There is a mod that does messengers really well and will even let you choose if it is instant or takes some time, can anyone remember what it is and link it? I am failing to find it

Telepathy

Talk to any hero from encyclopedia.

www.nexusmods.com

 

[guiskj]

May I suggest 2 more constraints?

1. You need to have non-negative relation points with the minor clan to recruit them as mercenary

2. Running out of money incours a relation penalty of -5 ~ -10 with all mercenary factions the major faction has in its employment.


Relation should be more fluid in the game and, specially for the player, building a set of true allies and enemies can help contextualise a playthrough.

We also need more ways to organically gain relation outside of just giving people a bunch of money in the barter screen. Everyone's friendship have a price in Calradia right now and it is not even that high...

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Telepathy

Talk to any hero from encyclopedia.

www.nexusmods.com

Thank you that's the one, I really like the optional "Prevent talking to heroes not met yet". It would give a lot more importance to the first meet all the kings story mission. But I do think it should be optional.

May I suggest 2 more constraints?

1. You need to have non-negative relation points with the minor clan to recruit them as mercenary

2. Running out of money incours a relation penalty of -5 ~ -10 with all mercenary factions the major faction has in its employment.


Relation should be more fluid in the game and, specially for the player, building a set of true allies and enemies can help contextualise a playthrough.

We also need more ways to organically gain relation outside of just giving people a bunch of money in the barter screen. Everyone's friendship have a price in Calradia right now and it is not even that high...

Not sure if I like the idea of stoping factions from using mercenaries, they are a necessary comeback/up tool. I'd be okay with the cost of a mercenary group depending on your relation with them. So if you have bad relationship with them they cost more to hire. So #1 is a no from me unless changed to a financial hit, #2 is okay if #1 is changed.

 

[mexxico]

May I suggest 2 more constraints?

1. You need to have non-negative relation points with the minor clan to recruit them as mercenary

2. Running out of money incours a relation penalty of -5 ~ -10 with all mercenary factions the major faction has in its employment.

About 2 : I thought something like this but it is problematic. When this penalty will be applied? For example player’s money reduced to 0, then we will lose relation with minor faction leaders as king? Then our money go up 5K and two days later again reduced to 0. Then we will get a new penalty. This system does not work. Mercenaries get paid from a pool not a direct payment happens. All clans give money to this pool and mercenaries get their payment from that pool. Tributes are similar too. Tributes have their another pool. I am not owner of these codes but there is so complicated payment system currently as reason alternative solution for 2 which is giving a small relation penalty when a payment not happened also not a choice.

Here is what happened in daily ticks for all clans in Battania which left only 1 town and has 4 normal clans and 3 mercenary clans :

fen eingal (day 1)
leader gold begin : 351
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -291 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -5620 -> -5329
goldchange at daily payment : 89
debtToKingdom end : 0

fen derngil (day 1)
leader gold begin : 47084
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -1776 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -5329 -> -3553
goldchange at daily payment : -898
debtToKingdom end : 0

playerland (day 1)
leader gold begin : 35344
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -296 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3553 -> -3257
goldchange at daily payment : -281
debtToKingdom end : 0

wolfskins (mercenary) (day 1)
leader gold begin : 3123
mercenaryWallet : -3257 -> -4257
goldchange at daily payment : 1000 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)

forest people (mercenary) (day 1)
leader gold begin : 32154
mercenaryWallet : -4257 -> -5190 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 933

fen gruffendoc (day 1)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom begin : 73502
mercenaryShare : -1000 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -5190 -> -4190
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom end : 74269

fen morcar (day 1)
leader gold begin : 21875
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -349 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -4190 -> -3841
goldchange at daily payment : -56
debtToKingdom end : 0

fen eingal (day 2)
leader gold begin : 440
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -320 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3841 -> -3521
goldchange at daily payment : -312
debtToKingdom end : 0

skolderbroda (mercenary) (day 2)
leader gold begin : 1328
mercenaryWallet : -3521 -> -3521 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 0

fen derngil (day 2)
leader gold begin : 46117
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -1173 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3521 -> -2348
goldchange at daily payment : -949
debtToKingdom end : 0

playerland (day 2)
leader gold begin : 25
debtToKingdom : 0
mercenaryShare : -195 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2348 -> -2153
goldchange at daily payment : -949
debtToKingdom : 178

wolfskins (mercenary) (day 2)
leader gold begin : 2910
mercenaryWallet : -2153 -> -2613 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 460

forest people (mercenary) (day 2)
leader gold begin : 30159
mercenaryWallet : -2613 -> -3453 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 840

fen gruffendoc (day 2)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom : 74269
mercenaryShare : -627 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3453 -> -2826
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom : 74829

fen morcar (day 2)
leader gold begin : 20538
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -256 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2826 -> -2570
goldchange at daily payment : -20
debtToKingdom end : 0

fen eingal (day 3)
leader gold begin : 128
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -233 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2570 -> -2337
goldchange at daily payment : 24
debtToKingdom end : 0

skolderbroda (mercenary) (day 3)
leader gold begin : 1208
mercenaryWallet : -2337 -> -2337 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 0

fen derngil (day 3)
leader gold begin : 45168
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -849 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2337 -> -1488
goldchange at daily payment : -722
debtToKingdom end : 0

playerland (day 3)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom begin : 178
mercenaryShare : -135 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -1488 -> -1353
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom end : 316

wolfskins (mercenary) (day 3)
leader gold begin : 1961
mercenaryWallet : -1353 -> -1813 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 460

forest people left battanians (probably get better offer)

fen gruffendoc (day 3)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom : 74829
mercenaryShare : -329 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -1813 -> -1484
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom : 75094

fen morcar (day 3)
leader gold begin : 19780
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -134 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -1484 -> -1350
goldchange at daily payment : 482
debtToKingdom end : 0

 

[Blood Gryphon]

About 2 : I thought something like this but it is problematic. When this penalty will be applied? For example player’s money reduced to 0, then we will lose relation with minor faction leaders as king? Then our money go up 5K and two days later again reduced to 0. Then we will get a new penalty. This system does not work. Mercenaries get paid from a pool not a direct payment happens. All clans give money to this pool and mercenaries get their payment from that pool. Tributes are similar too. Tributes have their another pool. I am not owner of these codes but there is so complicated payment system currently as reason alternative solution for 2 which is giving a small relation penalty when a payment not happened also not a choice.

Here is what happened in daily ticks for all clans in Battania which left only 1 town and has 4 normal clans and 3 mercenary clans :

fen eingal (day 1)
leader gold begin : 351
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -291 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -5620 -> -5329
goldchange at daily payment : 89
debtToKingdom end : 0

fen derngil (day 1)
leader gold begin : 47084
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -1776 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -5329 -> -3553
goldchange at daily payment : -898
debtToKingdom end : 0

playerland (day 1)
leader gold begin : 35344
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -296 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3553 -> -3257
goldchange at daily payment : -281
debtToKingdom end : 0

wolfskins (mercenary) (day 1)
leader gold begin : 3123
mercenaryWallet : -3257 -> -4257
goldchange at daily payment : 1000 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)

forest people (mercenary) (day 1)
leader gold begin : 32154
mercenaryWallet : -4257 -> -5190 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 933

fen gruffendoc (day 1)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom begin : 73502
mercenaryShare : -1000 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -5190 -> -4190
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom end : 74269

fen morcar (day 1)
leader gold begin : 21875
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -349 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -4190 -> -3841
goldchange at daily payment : -56
debtToKingdom end : 0

fen eingal (day 2)
leader gold begin : 440
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -320 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3841 -> -3521
goldchange at daily payment : -312
debtToKingdom end : 0

skolderbroda (mercenary) (day 2)
leader gold begin : 1328
mercenaryWallet : -3521 -> -3521 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 0

fen derngil (day 2)
leader gold begin : 46117
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -1173 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3521 -> -2348
goldchange at daily payment : -949
debtToKingdom end : 0

playerland (day 2)
leader gold begin : 25
debtToKingdom : 0
mercenaryShare : -195 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2348 -> -2153
goldchange at daily payment : -949
debtToKingdom : 178

wolfskins (mercenary) (day 2)
leader gold begin : 2910
mercenaryWallet : -2153 -> -2613 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 460

forest people (mercenary) (day 2)
leader gold begin : 30159
mercenaryWallet : -2613 -> -3453 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 840

fen gruffendoc (day 2)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom : 74269
mercenaryShare : -627 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -3453 -> -2826
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom : 74829

fen morcar (day 2)
leader gold begin : 20538
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -256 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2826 -> -2570
goldchange at daily payment : -20
debtToKingdom end : 0

fen eingal (day 3)
leader gold begin : 128
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -233 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2570 -> -2337
goldchange at daily payment : 24
debtToKingdom end : 0

skolderbroda (mercenary) (day 3)
leader gold begin : 1208
mercenaryWallet : -2337 -> -2337 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 0

fen derngil (day 3)
leader gold begin : 45168
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -849 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -2337 -> -1488
goldchange at daily payment : -722
debtToKingdom end : 0

playerland (day 3)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom begin : 178
mercenaryShare : -135 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -1488 -> -1353
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom end : 316

wolfskins (mercenary) (day 3)
leader gold begin : 1961
mercenaryWallet : -1353 -> -1813 (mercenary clan took payment from pool)
goldchange at daily payment : 460

forest people left battanians (probably get better offer)

fen gruffendoc (day 3)
leader gold begin : 0
debtToKingdom : 74829
mercenaryShare : -329 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -1813 -> -1484
goldchange at daily payment : 0
debtToKingdom : 75094

fen morcar (day 3)
leader gold begin : 19780
debtToKingdom begin : 0
mercenaryShare : -134 (should be payed to pool)
mercenaryWallet : -1484 -> -1350
goldchange at daily payment : 482
debtToKingdom end : 0

Seems that if the king of a faction gets into that kind of cyclical debt, the rates that lords who have some money needs to be increased until the leader can pull itself out of debt. Is it correct that a leader of a faction who is broke wont be able to recruit clans into their faction? Is this the reason that once a faction loses its clans its unable to ever recover them (because they are in a cycle of debt from needing mercs to compete)?

The more I think about this the more questions I have, does going into kingdom debt basically immobilize a king from doing anything? How can they recruit with no money or does it just get charged deeper into debt? I would say don't let a kingdom go into debt for mercenaries and force them to leave ("won't work without pay").

 

[mexxico]

The more I think about this the more questions I have, does going into kingdom debt basically immobilize a king from doing anything? How can they recruit with no money or does it just get charged deeper into debt? I would say don't let a kingdom go into debt for mercenaries and force them to leave ("won't work without pay").

Yes. That kind of things are big problems. In this example Battania should not recruit these minor clans because payments of these clans (also tributes) made 1-2 clans totally poor (0 gold) their all income goes to tribute and mercenary payments. If this happens these clans even cannot buy food and troops starve sometimes also they cannot recruit troops of course. This is rare situation at 1.5.6 we fixed most of things causing clans poor in previous patches but still there are some remains unsolved.

In sample several clans handle situation probably they got fiefs even in this sample Battania have only 1 town and 1 castle. Kingdom budget is depleted for Battania in this sample also. In 1.5.6 I fixed several that kind of stuff for fixing snowballing it seems this also needs a fix so that Battania should not recruit minor clans if there are economical problems. Financial situation of kingdom is already cared in calculations for recruitment of minors but seems its importance need to increase. Also if we add 2 rules mentioned above this also prevents a bit.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Yes. That kind of things are big problems. In this example Battania should not recruit these minor clans because payments of these clans (also tributes) made 1-2 clans totally poor (0 gold) their all income goes to tribute and mercenary payments. If this happens these clans even cannot buy food and troops starve sometimes. Of course this is rare situation at 1.5.6

In sample several clans handle situation probably they got fiefs even in this sample Battania have only 1 town and 1 castle. Kingdom budget is depleted for Battania in this sample also. In 1.5.6 I fixed several that kind of stuff for fixing snowballing it seems this also needs a fix so that Battania should not recruit minor clans if there are economical problems. This is already cared but seems its importance need to increase. Also if we add 2 rules mentioned above this also prevents a bit.

Yep sounds like you know how to handle it, nice catch man glad you looked into this stuff. Getting to actually use mercenaries as a player kingdom has me pretty excited.

Have a good weekend!

 

[Ragemaster9999]

Yep sounds like you know how to handle it, nice catch man glad you looked into this stuff. Getting to actually use mercenaries as a player kingdom has me pretty excited.

Have a good weekend!

You'll be less excited to use mercenary when they randomly break contract at some point . It would be nice if there was actually a contract length and it wouldn't expire until the end and give the player a chance to renew it instead of having merc dessert during a siege @mexxico

 

[mexxico]

You'll be less excited to use mercenary when they randomly break contract at some point . It would be nice if there was actually a contract length and it wouldn't expire until the end and give the player a chance to renew it instead of having merc dessert during a siege @mexxico

Today while checking this bug I also checked their defection conditions. Will work on this to make them stay longer.