Recruiting clans is way too expensive, Warband had a better system

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five bucks

Knight
Yeah, the problem is more that players don't understand and grossly underestimate what is required to recruit vassals. Many players assume that having high relations will get the vassals easily and this question is asked/answered very frequently and is why I have a copy paste of my best explanation handy. Also the main campaign quest leads new player to create a faction in a very under developed state and doesn't provide any guidance or information about what starting new faction will actually be like. Players are often shocked that they must fight armies alone and their "friends" won't join them. Many players have no idea that they can create vassals from wanderers too.
This. I think the game is fairly easy to play and understand (even on harder difficulty settings) up until you make your own faction, at which point it dramatically skyrockets (if you aren't using exploits) and becomes highly unintuitive too.
Now, it makes sense and can be explained, it just isn't intuitive to new players and probably some primer or NPC to explain these things in game would do a lot of good in the final version.
However this is where I disagree - I think the current method of recruiting lords and creating a new kingdom is problematic and shouldn't just be explained to the player, but improved as well.

Ideally, relations would make more impact on convincing a lord to join you. You would be able to convince lords to join you *before* you actually secede; so that you have a power-base as soon as you start a new kingdom and aren't suddenly facing a multi-kingdom gangbang with just your clan. Lords would bring their territory along with them instantly whether you're at war or not.
 

Winnie

Sergeant at Arms
WB
Defection to enemies with your fiefs is fine and happens between AI kingdoms. Defection to neutral kingdoms should not happen with fiefs. Afaik.
This new feature is so nauseating, pls delete them, or reference the Warband, where the Lord defected only when he has a bad relationship, and make it possible to defect to the player's kingdom. Players must be able to know in advance that their Lord is about to defect, and make it manageable

You can't develop new features for balance and not for the player. :cry:
 

Duh_TaleWorlds

Developer
Just to be clear - none of this is new for Bannerlord. If you are experiencing issues with this recently, it is likely due to a bug that makes defection occur to frequently. We are investigating that.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Created clans by the player is currently a mayor risk, because there is a defection bug for all clans in the player kingdom.

Not sure I understand the question:roll:

I am a king of Sturgia right now, and recently I've captured two Aserai fiefs (a city and a castle) and granted them to a clan with no fiefs. A few days after that, they joined Aserai and took the fiefs with them.

Another situation was with the clan I created from a wanderer - they had 1 town and joined Vlandians. The town became Vlandian after that.

Yet, when I recruited an Imperial clan with at least 1 town - they joined my Kingdom without any fiefs. The town stayed with Imperials.

Just to be clear - none of this is new for Bannerlord. If you are experiencing issues with this recently, it is likely due to a bug that makes defection occur to frequently. We are investigating that.
Okay I have now started to encounter this issue in my game, which I think must be a bug. I have completed many campaigns before and actually never had a single vassal defect until now. These vassals in current game are max relation, average or better wealth and are defecting to enemies with lower power and no relation with rulers. I've submitted a ticked with save game and info but I'll post this here so we can discus it. Obviously there's no point in playing a non-execution-for-everyone game if they are going to defect often or without preventable and reasonable reasons.
 

five bucks

Knight
Its a bit poorly worded I think. It sounds more like they’re simply not willing to join you, regardless of relationship or cash, not that you don’t have enough to barter.
The best wording would be something like "your words are not going to convince me, and your funds are far too small for what I would ask of you."
 

Bluko88

Regular
Should be like that yes. That's why defecting someone that owns fiefs is harder during peace. They consider the loss of their fiefs.
That seems rather counter-intuitive. Persuading Lords while at war seems rather risky, not to mention good luck catching them while out of an army. Wouldn't defecting while at war be more dangerous and heinous for the lord in question? I mean when they do that, they are actively betraying their former Kingdom and allies.

During Peace time, I mean yeah it's kind of treasonous, but could be considered just moving or "border negotiations".

To me it should work the same regardless of War/Peace. You've either got the Charm/Relationship/Power to convert someone, or you don't. Kind of invalidates Charm if it only works sometimes (and no Quests/Marriage are not worth Charm skill) when the game decides it's okay.


Honestly if you're charming enough, liked enough, rich enough - why shouldn't you be able to convert most anyone? To me the formula should be relatively simple:

(I guess you can keep the silly RNG conversation beforehand, but no one likes RNG honestly)

Conversion Score = [(Charm/50) * (Kingdom Power Ratio*25)] + Relation


*If conversion score is or more 100 they'll consider converting; if you can pay them enough
**Kingdom Power Ratio should be decided as Your Kingdom Score (Towns = 3, Castles = 1, 1000 Troops = 1) / Their Kingdom Score


Conversion Cost = [(Their Clan Score*50) / Conversion Score + 1/(Charm+1)] * 1,000,000


*Clan Score is tallied same as Kingdom Score (Towns = 3, Castles = 1, 1000 Troops = 1)



So for example you didn't invest in Charm and only have 20 Charm Skill, but you somehow buttered up the last remaining non-Ruler Clan to say +25 Relation, and your Kingdom is pretty strong at 14 Towns and 14 Castles. Where their Kingdom is on the brink with 1 Town and 1 Castle remaining. They got say 1500 Troops total, yours has 9000 Troops - Kingdom Power Ratio is 11 (always round up/down)

You were able to convert them half due to your power and half due to your relation, a total Conversion Score of 135

Now this last holdout Clan has 1 Castle and let's say 500 Troops, so you'll have to pay quite a bit still with a Conversion Cost 788,000 denars. But if they had no fief at all and only 200-300 Troops, they'd join you readily for 47,000 denars as Conversion Cost! Case in point fiefs are expensive so maximizing your Conversion Score goes a long way!


But let's say the Kingdoms were totally equal in power...

Conversion Score is only a measly 30, so no chance at all


But let's say same scenario, only you had leveled up Charm to a somewhat high 175

Conversion Score is 108

Again let's say they have 1 Castle and 500 Troops - you're going to have to pay 931,000 denars in Conversion Cost to turn them this time.


Finally let's say you've really power game'd and your Kingdom controls half the continent (27 Towns, 32 Castles, 18,000 Troops) and you got like 275 Charm. You're pretty much guaranteed to be able to convert clans, but how much will it cost you?

  1. Let's say you have a bitter rival (-100 Relation) in a smaller Kingdom (4 Towns, 4 Castles, 4000 Troops). Conversion Score is 801. They have 1 Castle and 500 Troops. You'll have to pay them 128,467 denars as Conversion Cost - and this is where the building up your power and your charm has guaranteed you total power
  2. Let's take a neutral rival (0 Relation) in a smaller Kingdom (4 Towns, 4 Castles, 4000 Troops). Conversion Score is 901. They too have 1 Castle and 500 Troops. You'll have to pay them 114,000 denars as Conversion Cost
  3. Finally say there is a 3rd Kingdom fairly large (10 Towns, 14 Castles, 10000 Troops). Rival clan somewhat dislikes yours (-30 Relation) and they own 1 Town, 2 Castles, and 1000 Troops - a sizable force. Conversion Score is 304. Conversion Cost is then 990,000 denars.

And to recap these last 3 if you basically had little to no Charm (say 20) but same large Kingdom...

1. Small bitter rival no conversion
2. Small neutral rival, Conversion Score 164, Conversion Cost is 613,000 denars
3. Large rival no conversion



Well wasn't planning to write my thesis, but there ya go. See no random incomprehensible stuff, simple obvious results even if you don't know the maths. Early on converting Clans to your Kingdom is largely impossible or going to be very expensive and thus a significant event. If you make it to the end game, leveled up your Charm, you can now sweet talk the rest of Calradia to join without any bloodshed. And no sillyness based on War or Peace. As the immaculate Todd says:

C2CFFFD003B35365D6CFCCF499178CF847D8DE83
 

Spinozart1

Knight
That seems rather counter-intuitive. Persuading Lords while at war seems rather risky, not to mention good luck catching them while out of an army. Wouldn't defecting while at war be more dangerous and heinous for the lord in question? I mean when they do that, they are actively betraying their former Kingdom and allies.

During Peace time, I mean yeah it's kind of treasonous, but could be considered just moving or "border negotiations".

To me it should work the same regardless of War/Peace. You've either got the Charm/Relationship/Power to convert someone, or you don't. Kind of invalidates Charm if it only works sometimes (and no Quests/Marriage are not worth Charm skill) when the game decides it's okay.


Honestly if you're charming enough, liked enough, rich enough - why shouldn't you be able to convert most anyone? To me the formula should be relatively simple:

(I guess you can keep the silly RNG conversation beforehand, but no one likes RNG honestly)

Conversion Score = [(Charm/50) * (Kingdom Power Ratio*25)] + Relation

*If conversion score is or more 100 they'll consider converting; if you can pay them enough
**Kingdom Power Ratio should be decided as Your Kingdom Score (Towns = 3, Castles = 1, 1000 Troops = 1) / Their Kingdom Score


Conversion Cost = [(Their Clan Score*50) / Conversion Score + 1/(Charm+1)] * 1,000,000

*Clan Score is tallied same as Kingdom Score (Towns = 3, Castles = 1, 1000 Troops = 1)


So for example you didn't invest in Charm and only have 20 Charm Skill, but you somehow buttered up the last remaining non-Ruler Clan to say +25 Relation, and your Kingdom is pretty strong at 14 Towns and 14 Castles. Where their Kingdom is on the brink with 1 Town and 1 Castle remaining. They got say 1500 Troops total, yours has 9000 Troops - Kingdom Power Ratio is 11 (always round up/down)

You were able to convert them half due to your power and half due to your relation, a total Conversion Score of 135

Now this last holdout Clan has 1 Castle and let's say 500 Troops, so you'll have to pay quite a bit still with a Conversion Cost 788,000 denars. But if they had no fief at all and only 200-300 Troops, they'd join you readily for 47,000 denars as Conversion Cost! Case in point fiefs are expensive so maximizing your Conversion Score goes a long way!


But let's say the Kingdoms were totally equal in power...

Conversion Score is only a measly 30, so no chance at all


But let's say same scenario, only you had leveled up Charm to a somewhat high 175

Conversion Score is 108

Again let's say they have 1 Castle and 500 Troops - you're going to have to pay 931,000 denars in Conversion Cost to turn them this time.


Finally let's say you've really power game'd and your Kingdom controls half the continent (27 Towns, 32 Castles, 18,000 Troops) and you got like 275 Charm. You're pretty much guaranteed to be able to convert clans, but how much will it cost you?

  1. Let's say you have a bitter rival (-100 Relation) in a smaller Kingdom (4 Towns, 4 Castles, 4000 Troops). Conversion Score is 801. They have 1 Castle and 500 Troops. You'll have to pay them 128,467 denars as Conversion Cost - and this is where the building up your power and your charm has guaranteed you total power
  2. Let's take a neutral rival (0 Relation) in a smaller Kingdom (4 Towns, 4 Castles, 4000 Troops). Conversion Score is 901. They too have 1 Castle and 500 Troops. You'll have to pay them 114,000 denars as Conversion Cost
  3. Finally say there is a 3rd Kingdom fairly large (10 Towns, 14 Castles, 10000 Troops). Rival clan somewhat dislikes yours (-30 Relation) and they own 1 Town, 2 Castles, and 1000 Troops - a sizable force. Conversion Score is 304. Conversion Cost is then 990,000 denars.

And to recap these last 3 if you basically had little to no Charm (say 20) but same large Kingdom...

1. Small bitter rival no conversion
2. Small neutral rival, Conversion Score 164, Conversion Cost is 613,000 denars
3. Large rival no conversion



Well wasn't planning to write my thesis, but there ya go. See no random incomprehensible stuff, simple obvious results even if you don't know the maths. Early on converting Clans to your Kingdom is largely impossible or going to be very expensive and thus a significant event. If you make it to the end game, leveled up your Charm, you can now sweet talk the rest of Calradia to join without any bloodshed. And no sillyness based on War or Peace. As the immaculate Todd says:

C2CFFFD003B35365D6CFCCF499178CF847D8DE83
Not that bad.
Penalties could be added for some extreme cases as well.
A clan with -100 relation is literally hating you, so why would they even consider joining your kingdom?
One issue I could see here though is that it just limits your path/choices.
Raise your charm, raise your relation and get a lot of fiefs = win game guaranteed, just a question of grind.
 

AJAJP_Juan

Knight at Arms
That seems rather counter-intuitive. Persuading Lords while at war seems rather risky, not to mention good luck catching them while out of an army.

You can initiate the negotiation while he is prisoner, so no problem in that front.
 
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