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AngryPanCake

Veteran
@Philozoraptor
Hi there,
Thanks for quickly updating your Mod to 1.7.2.
I have a question regarding associated "required" mods with RBM. In 1.7.0, I used RBM without the Unblock DLL mod and I thought it worked just fine. When I downloaded the new RBM, it said I needed the DLL mod. Is it a hard requirement or can RBM work without DLL mod?

Also MCM is probably in conflict with RBM combat module

You mean RBM is fine with MCM, just that RBM combat module conflicts with MCM, correct?
Also, what happens when you disable MCM?

Thank you,
APC.
 
@Philozoraptor
Hi there,
Thanks for quickly updating your Mod to 1.7.2.
I have a question regarding associated "required" mods with RBM. In 1.7.0, I used RBM without the Unblock DLL mod and I thought it worked just fine. When I downloaded the new RBM, it said I needed the DLL mod. Is it a hard requirement or can RBM work without DLL mod?



You mean RBM is fine with MCM, just that RBM combat module conflicts with MCM, correct?
Also, what happens when you disable MCM?

Thank you,
APC.
You need to make sure that all dlls are activated, this depends on your Windows settings etc. So you may end up with activated dlls by default, or you may have to activate them manually or you can activate them with the aforementioned mod. I am not sure by MCM I just remember that some people reported problems that seemed like mod conflict when they had MCM installed (can you tweak AI difficulty or damage received with MCM?).
 

AngryPanCake

Veteran
I am not sure by MCM I just remember that some people reported problems that seemed like mod conflict when they had MCM installed (can you tweak AI difficulty or damage received with MCM?).
When I open any of the MCM options, they do not show any way to tweak AI difficulty/damage received.
 

Bratok

Regular
The RBM cavalry being OP issue has been discussed in several threads lately.

So, I've been thinking. Apart from the strong armor and high skills, it's a mount that makes cavalry so OP in Bannerlord.

In reality, I guess, falling from a horse in the middle of a melee was an almost 100% death sentence to even the most heavily armored cavalrymen.

I know that a lying plate armored knight unable to stand up (like a turtle) is a popular misconception, but there could be a plethora of other deadly factors - e.g. your own horse (~600 kg) falling upon you, enemy infantry stomping you or poking their rondel daggers into your eyeslits, deep mud/water, which doesn't help to breath naturally (especially if you are crumpled under a horse or other dead/wounded people) etc.
At Agincourt many French knights (who were probably still combat capable) fell in thick mud and suffocated, when English longbowen shot their horses, and French allies kept advancing, stepping on their own fallen.

Also, in reality concussion and shock is a thing. Even without brain damage, falling prone from a saddle height will get you incapacitated at least for several seconds (which is still enough to kill you in a thousands of ways). If there is a hard ground underneath (with rocks and bumps), you may also get a broken neck, bone fracture, dislocated joint or some other heavy blunt trauma (even in full plate). Falling down at a gallop speed? Multiply all trauma factors at least 10 times.

But even in non-combat situations falling from a horse was often lethal. Drunk nobles cosplaying a Wild Hunt on their way to rape some peasant wenches? Bam!!! Count Geoffrey falls down from his horse at a 45 km/h! Bam!!! Broken neck, broken spine, broken ****ing everything! Look at that list for example:


What do we have in BL? Imperial Cataphract/Vlandian Banner Knight lost his horse/fell of a saddle at a full gallop? Nah, he'll be fine. Probably will even **** some infantry up right after he gets up almost unscathed.

So, my opinion is that instead of nerfing body armor and weapon damage/penetration values, we should make all dismounted (either by melee hits or by killing the mount) NPCs dead/knocked out, regardless of how many HP are left or what armor is currently equipped. Is that even technically possible, I wonder?
 
Cav is actually underpowered in comparison to history, no need to nerf them further. One good charge to flank or rear should win most of the battles, instead it just does some damage and causes chaos.
 

Dargorius

Recruit
The RBM cavalry being OP issue has been discussed in several threads lately.

So, I've been thinking. Apart from the strong armor and high skills, it's a mount that makes cavalry so OP in Bannerlord.

In reality, I guess, falling from a horse in the middle of a melee was an almost 100% death sentence to even the most heavily armored cavalrymen.

I know that a lying plate armored knight unable to stand up (like a turtle) is a popular misconception, but there could be a plethora of other deadly factors - e.g. your own horse (~600 kg) falling upon you, enemy infantry stomping you or poking their rondel daggers into your eyeslits, deep mud/water, which doesn't help to breath naturally (especially if you are crumpled under a horse or other dead/wounded people) etc.
At Agincourt many French knights (who were probably still combat capable) fell in thick mud and suffocated, when English longbowen shot their horses, and French allies kept advancing, stepping on their own fallen.

Also, in reality concussion and shock is a thing. Even without brain damage, falling prone from a saddle height will get you incapacitated at least for several seconds (which is still enough to kill you in a thousands of ways). If there is a hard ground underneath (with rocks and bumps), you may also get a broken neck, bone fracture, dislocated joint or some other heavy blunt trauma (even in full plate). Falling down at a gallop speed? Multiply all trauma factors at least 10 times.

But even in non-combat situations falling from a horse was often lethal. Drunk nobles cosplaying a Wild Hunt on their way to rape some peasant wenches? Bam!!! Count Geoffrey falls down from his horse at a 45 km/h! Bam!!! Broken neck, broken spine, broken ****ing everything! Look at that list for example:


What do we have in BL? Imperial Cataphract/Vlandian Banner Knight lost his horse/fell of a saddle at a full gallop? Nah, he'll be fine. Probably will even **** some infantry up right after he gets up almost unscathed.

So, my opinion is that instead of nerfing body armor and weapon damage/penetration values, we should make all dismounted (either by melee hits or by killing the mount) NPCs dead/knocked out, regardless of how many HP are left or what armor is currently equipped. Is that even technically possible, I wonder?
I made an account just to reply.
Ever got hit by a horse? Because I have, multiple times even. And they weren't galloping, they were just prancing, or walking their normal speed.
If cav would be realistic in this game, the charge damage should have like 50% change to insta K.O., since Vlandians charge with full horse armor, weighing something like 45 kg, on top of the horse weighting 500-800 kg and don't forget a beast of a man riding the damn thing.
So a full charge of heavy cav is something you win a battle with.
Cav should be much more expensive, not nerfed, but without changing what's already in the mod I do believe cav to be in a good spot balance wise.
 

Bratok

Regular
Cav is actually underpowered in comparison to history, no need to nerf them further. One good charge to flank or rear should win most of the battles, instead it just does some damage and causes chaos.
Underpowered??? In RBM heavy cavalry usually just charges head-on with zero ****s given and WINS.

Real cavalry charges looked different than popular culture and videogames depict. Apart from occasional rear and flank charges, no sane person would actually charge a fully prepared and aware infantry formation. Warhorses were EXPENSIVE, it took years to breed and train them and they were priced like modern luxury boats and supercars. Only the wealthiest knights could afford an immediate replacement for a wounded/slain warhorse.

Something tells me that a charging warhorse (with a rider) is a frightening sight, so cavalry success mostly relied on psychological attrition:
1. Cavalry is charging (flank or rear charges were not always available, medieval commanders were much smarter than Total War AI)
2. Infantry starting to waiver, soldiers fail to keep formation, intervals increase, some people may even flee, leaving gaps in the formation.
3. Charging cavalry tries to break INTO GAPS, plowing the way for other knights, mostly by just pushing infantry aside. Lances were useful, of course, - to kill the first footman in line, the others in the back won't have time or free space to react.
4. Infantry is scattered and running for their lives. Cavalry starts pursuing the fleeing footmen. This is the stage when most casualties happened.

If cavalry failed to frighten footmen before the impact, they just slowed down, turned away and tried again (maybe in other place).

BL has too many horse armors, RBM makes them excessively protective. 250-350HP high tier horses are almost invincible. In reality, even late medieval full plate barding always leaved horse's belly and legs unprotected. Most iconic "anti-knight" weapons (bill, halberd, glaive etc.) were primarily an anti-horse weapons, because dismounted knights were pretty much always ****ed and posed a relatively low threat.
In BL dismounted knights continue to wreck havoc amid enemy infantry like nothing happened.

I understand that BL engine has lots of limitations and I don't want to NERF heavy cav, I want in to be realistic and reasonably fair.


I made an account just to reply.
Ever got hit by a horse? Because I have, multiple times even. And they weren't galloping, they were just prancing, or walking their normal speed.
If cav would be realistic in this game, the charge damage should have like 50% change to insta K.O., since Vlandians charge with full horse armor, weighing something like 45 kg, on top of the horse weighting 500-800 kg and don't forget a beast of a man riding the damn thing.
So a full charge of heavy cav is something you win a battle with.
Cav should be much more expensive, not nerfed, but without changing what's already in the mod I do believe cav to be in a good spot balance wise.
Okay. And how exactly is it related to my original post?
 
Underpowered??? In RBM heavy cavalry usually just charges head-on with zero ****s given and WINS.

Real cavalry charges looked different than popular culture and videogames depict. Apart from occasional rear and flank charges, no sane person would actually charge a fully prepared and aware infantry formation. Warhorses were EXPENSIVE, it took years to breed and train them and they were priced like modern luxury boats and supercars. Only the wealthiest knights could afford an immediate replacement for a wounded/slain warhorse.

Something tells me that a charging warhorse (with a rider) is a frightening sight, so cavalry success mostly relied on psychological attrition:
1. Cavalry is charging (flank or rear charges were not always available, medieval commanders were much smarter than Total War AI)
2. Infantry starting to waiver, soldiers fail to keep formation, intervals increase, some people may even flee, leaving gaps in the formation.
3. Charging cavalry tries to break INTO GAPS, plowing the way for other knights, mostly by just pushing infantry aside. Lances were useful, of course, - to kill the first footman in line, the others in the back won't have time or free space to react.
4. Infantry is scattered and running for their lives. Cavalry starts pursuing the fleeing footmen. This is the stage when most casualties happened.

If cavalry failed to frighten footmen before the impact, they just slowed down, turned away and tried again (maybe in other place).

BL has too many horse armors, RBM makes them excessively protective. 250-350HP high tier horses are almost invincible. In reality, even late medieval full plate barding always leaved horse's belly and legs unprotected. Most iconic "anti-knight" weapons (bill, halberd, glaive etc.) were primarily an anti-horse weapons, because dismounted knights were pretty much always ****ed and posed a relatively low threat.
In BL dismounted knights continue to wreck havoc amid enemy infantry like nothing happened.

I understand that BL engine has lots of limitations and I don't want to NERF heavy cav, I want in to be realistic and reasonably fair.



Okay. And how exactly is it related to my original post?
I agree with pretty much everything, problem is mainly technical. Majority of nuance of cavalry charge is simply not doable, hack we cannot even tell them to attack specific formation effectivelly or to tell them all to couch their lances.

Morale based gameplay would probably be somehow doable, however I believe that low numbers of troops present during battles in BL would make it very unpleasant to play for majority of players (including me), AKA one rear charge just broke my army, PLZ FIX, I just want to fight some battles not play morale simulator, etc, etc.

What I meant by cav being underpowered is that generally they had better KD ratio than in game (to big degree due to aforemetioned factors but still). In game 1.5-2 foot infantry equals one cav of same tier (banner knights and elite cataphracts are tier 6, please keep that in mind). I am almost certain that generally two light infantrymen were not equal 1 light cav in the past, otherwise noone would bother with cav (one horse alone eats like 10 times as much calories as human, and war horses ate grain not grass, not to mention that knights / horse archers often had multiple horses, there were 3 supporting personnel per knight etc).

Then there is problem of spam, player can mass 250 maybe even 500 cavalry and he will face army of similiar size on the field no matter how big the actual army is due to limitations of game so player can abuse critical mass. But this is more about self control, if someone wants to exploit single player game he will (cough blacksmithing cough), there is nothing keeping players from taking all recruits (which results in more organic armies) and participating in huge 2K vs 2K battles which will whittle down even elite cavalry in his army very fast.

Something tells me that whiners intentinally min max their armies (aka tier 4-6 cavalry) and then keep fighting relatively weak enemy tier 1-6 mixed armies which are probably much weaker even in auto resolve / power score. I have possible solution that would increase player cavalry cost significantly, but I need to test it first.
 

Bratok

Regular
Then there is problem of spam, player can mass 250 maybe even 500 cavalry and he will face army of similiar size on the field no matter how big the actual army is due to limitations of game so player can abuse critical mass. But this is more about self control, if someone wants to exploit single player game he will (cough blacksmithing cough), there is nothing keeping players from taking all recruits (which results in more organic armies) and participating in huge 2K vs 2K battles which will whittle down even elite cavalry in his army very fast.
Agreed. Never understood those strange people. If you think that playing with heavy cav is too easy, then DON'T PLAY that way.
If you like playing full heavy cav or full Fian - be my guest! It is a single player sandbox game FFS.

I am almost certain that generally two light infantrymen were not equal 1 light cav in the past, otherwise noone would bother with cav (one horse alone eats like 10 times as much calories as human, and war horses ate grain not grass, not to mention that knights / horse archers often had multiple horses, there were 3 supporting personnel per knight etc).
Warband had a 1.66 wage multiplier for mounted units. What governs recruit and upgrade costs in BL?

I wish we could make an increased consumption of grain and flax for horse troops and free horses in the inventory. Common horses only consume grain and flax, when travelling on snowy/desert terrain. Warhorses consume only grain and flax all the time. Steppe horses have decreased food consumptions etc. Malnourished horses should have decreased stats and can even die of starvation.
But I guess theses things are too complicated even for TaleWorlds. LOL
 

Pentagathoos

Veteran
Could be cool if heavy cavalry doesn't actually increase party speed too, horse barding doesn't carry itself and it's not as if the horse could wear it all day and not suffer for it. But then again, cavalry can be used to harass enemy troops on the march to slow them down, which you can't really simulate in BL so idk.
Why do melee cav have such a hard time hitting anything? Is it because they are specifically nerfed on purpose or is it because the AI is just not good at calculating where they need to strike once their moving at high speed?

From a mod balance perspective I suspect it's possible to write a trigger for fall damage once a mount is killed, could balance out heavy cav and horse archers to some degree. Not sure how much it would affect performance in large battles though.
 

0tto

Regular
en mass their trample is devastating, but when starting out they were more like support for inf.
in my current campaign i never went out of my way for cav it just sort of happened. guys died then got replaced, rinse and repeat 20 times and cav eventually made up 2/3 of my party

the way i saw it they were able to survive cause they don't fight as much. you know; the 1min vacation after a single hit (or miss)


when commanding cav i bet everyone fights this behavior more than reacting to the enemy
the AI on the other hand lets their cav uselessly wander for most of the fight
 

0tto

Regular
hey man, how can i tone down feint spam and 1-frame blocks?

just fought a looter party on foot and they were like little 6-armed Ganesha's in a whirlwind of arm movements.
 
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