Ransom back your soldiers

xHDxzero

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i kinda find in this game that defeat is way too harsh. spend years on training a elite party? got knocked out in battle and had too use the broken autocall system and lost? poof all your hard work training up your boys lost in a single ingame day.

so i suggest that when you get defeated in battle some/all of the wounded troops are able to be bought back via the ransom broker.

some of you might say that it is OP too just buy back your entire army after a loss. wich is true.

so suggest that your should not be able to ransom back the entire army but still a small part of it.
maybe have it so that if you wait for too long your soldiers may get out of prison them self/do not want to join you anymore.
maybe have the amount of soldiers willing to join you depend on the morale you had during the battle in wich you where defeated.
soldiers that where captured as a sacrife should not have many or maybe none at all willing to rejoin you

 
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Kreu2009

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The punishment for loosing in this game is indeed very harsh. In Dark souls You might just loose the progress of the last 20 minutes. In Bannerlord you can easely loose the progress of the last 5 hours.

Right now you are constantly swimming in money. So any way to quickly gain access to high level troops just by money would be really strong.
I think once the economy is bether balanced and money actually becomes a rare ressource, there is no problem with buying high tier units.
Once that is balanced you should in generall be able to get high tier troops by money. Its just not fun to constantly level units (in my opinion).
So it would be nice if you could buy them from ransom broker, more mercenaries or get them as quest rewards.

Buying your own guys back after you lost a battle, like you are suggesting, could be an option too of course. They could loose one tier because of their conditions in prison.
 

Dr-Shinobi

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Not really. think people are so used by winning in games today that they cant take a defeat and consequences. You get your army back in no time and if you want it back quicker just train in Leadership. Also if youre going to war dont bring more horses/mules and food then necessary is my advice. think of it this way. If this game was like in warband you also got the risk of loosing your personal gear which i think should be in this one to. And you also always know where your companions are by a simple click without having to ask around.

In other words. You already got the upper hand against the enemy with faster rate to train soldiers so if you can now buy em back (even small portions of em) it would unbalance the game in my opinion
 
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Kreu2009

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think people are so used by winning in games today that they cant take a defeat and consequences.
I think loosing in bannerlord is very different to loosing in other games.
First differenze:
If i loose in Warhammer vermintide i have to restart the mission. Is loose approximately 20 minutes of progress. Same for games like dark souls.
Getting your elite army back in Bannerlord would take at least 1 hour (depending on the difficulty and how many settlements you have). I just gave away my army and it took already 10 min just to get enough recruits together. Not even talking about how long it takes to level them back up.

Second differenze:
Having to restart in vermintide is no problem for me because even if i lost the mission, it still was fun. Same for the other games i play.
Releveling your troops in bannerlord is not fun in my oppionion. Chasing bandits and weak lords is very tedious. You see people constantly complaining about the very same thing on this forum. So i think im not the only one.

You already got the upper hand against the enemy with faster rate to train soldiers
I would say in the latest beta the AI has a faster training rate then the player.


if you can now buy em back (even small portions of em) it would unbalance the game in my opinion
People loading their latest save after each loss does very likely imbalance the game a lot more.
I know three other people who play Bannerlord and they all reload almost every time if they loose to many soldiers in a battle.
The process of releveling your troops is just to tedious and not fun.

Of course you are right it needs to be balanced properly. I wouldn't mind if the AI could buy troops from ransom broker too.
 

FredFirefly

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The first time I was captured, while I was discovering the game, I had a very hard time getting back on my feet. I got captured 3 or 4 times in a row while I was trying to head to the closest city. And it's true that it can be quite frustrating to loose your all army. But I wouldn't want to be able to get back my whole army, I need to feel that I lost.

I think you shouldn't be able to get back more than something like 40% of your previous surviving army (it can sound like a lot but since most of them very likely died when you got defeated, 40% of the survivors shouldn't be that much I think). Or maybe the number could be related to your leadership skill, the more your troops admire you, the more faithful they are and the more likely they will look for you/be ready to come back in your army. I don't think there is relation stat for your troops at the moment so leadership is I guess the only thing to measure this kind of stuff.

So it would be nice if you could buy them from ransom broker, more mercenaries or get them as quest rewards.
I like the idea of the quest, we could imagine that when you get the possibility to breakout of jail, you could have a mission to get out of the castle/city with a couple men. Mission should be a bit challenging, a bit like the hardest bandit hideouts mission when you have 10 guys to face 40 bandits. But here it would be the town/castle milicia. If your troops are able to take them out and you're a mastermind who excels in getting out of the worst situations, good for you, you'll make it out with everyone following you in the mission. But if you're in difficulty, you may have to leave your men fight for diversion while you flee alone.

Also, if you own a city or a castle, maybe you could find back some of your old units waiting for you there and would be willing to join you back (for a price or not, not sure if it would matter). But maybe stuff like this should only be available with a skill activated in your skilltree, probably related to leadership as once again, I don't really see what else could fit.

I am thinking of a way to still give a downside to the fact your troops can come back to you after a defeat. Might be a bit complicated as I think there would need to be a new variable to be added, I will call it "trust", which would be how much your men trust you (correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think there is such a thing as of now for the simple soldiers, not talking of companions who have a relation system). There could be a loss of trust from the units who were with you when you got defeated, which would translate in them easily running away from a battlefield when there are too many losses on your side. The trust would come back after a while, but in the meantime, you would have to avoid complicated fights.
 

Dr-Shinobi

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The punishment for loosing in this game is indeed very harsh. In Dark souls You might just loose the progress of the last 20 minutes. In Bannerlord you can easely loose the progress of the last 5 hours.

Right now you are constantly swimming in money. So any way to quickly gain access to high level troops just by money would be really strong.
I think once the economy is bether balanced and money actually becomes a rare ressource, there is no problem with buying high tier units.
Once that is balanced you should in generall be able to get high tier troops by money. Its just not fun to constantly level units (in my opinion).
So it would be nice if you could buy them from ransom broker, more mercenaries or get them as quest rewards.

Buying your own guys back after you lost a battle, like you are suggesting, could be an option too of course. They could loose one tier because of their conditions in prison.
No comments beacause
1st Vermentide is an easy mans game when it comes to progress
2nd same here
3rd No they dont, I can train armies way faster then the AI especially when im concentrating and training em with Leadership perk, And with the new all around armour buff i got the upper hand as a player
4th Proved my statement that people are to spoiled and cant take losses like real men ^^ An good medic and good tactics solves most issues. And if you screwed up well then get up on your feet again commander and wipe that dirt of your cape. You cant learn from no mistakes

JK ofc i dont want to be the one to tell others how to play their game but dont bring this on me since i consider this unnecessary and bit lazy as it could be solved with mods instead in my opinion
 

Dr-Shinobi

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Every way that allows me to get arround the boring activity of levelling troops, is a welcome addition for me!
Man its a part of the M&B experience but by all means get a macro that do everything for you in game so you can sip and drink coffee :smile: theres prob player AI programmed to so you dont have to fight as well as invincible troops so they cant die
 

Kreu2009

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1st Vermentide is an easy mans game when it comes to progress
Depends on what you call progress doesn't it? If you die in a mission all progress of that mission is lost. I don't really understand what you want to say.
(i assume you quoted the wrong post in your post?)


2nd same here
Would be nice if you could explain further.


3rd No they dont, I can train armies way faster then the AI especially when im concentrating and training em with Leadership perk, And with the new all around armour buff i got the upper hand as a player
I just made a test. I captured Tais and sold him in the next city. He respawned two days later in his city. He got 56 soldiers for free and took nine from his garrison. At that point he got 19 T1, 20 T2, 15 T3, 8 T5, 3 T4.
After 9 days he had 145 men.
As a player if you are willing to just take your garrisoned soldiers you can of course easely beat that (If you didn't got captured very far from your castle).
If you don't take from your garrison's or you don't have any, i would say you need to be lucky to beat that.
In my try i was a bit unlucky i guess. Most villages didn't have a lot of recruits. Even my own villages, with who i have almost max realationship, didn't have many. Also I didn't find a single T3 unit. After 9 days i got 100 men. 25 still were recruits only 6 were T3. A big problem was that i barely found any horses to buy, to speed up my party. For this try i cheated my leadership to 230. I didn't have the feeling it had a big impact. Normally my leadership is 126.

4th Proved my statement that people are to spoiled and cant take losses like real men ^^
Well people really like the little spare time they have. Real men have real jobs and real familys you know :wink: Thats why most challenging games try to make their challenges fun. So if you fail them its not a big problem because its fun to try again. Leveling up soldiers in bannerlord isn't a challenge and isn't fun either (At least i don't know anybody who enjoys chasing bandits and weak lords). Its just tedious. I would say people who don't mind doing boring stuff in their free time might be spoiled with to much free time.


In my opionion the "difficult" thing should not be to find recruits or weak enemys in order to level your units.
The difficult thing should be to get enough money to affort high tier units.
 
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Dr-Shinobi

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Well for the second part that if you died in Vermintide you still got progression and you dd´nt loose anything so yeah it proves the point that its an easy mans progression type of game.

For the rest, all i see is just excuses. Just because you have a full time job and kids doesnt mean you still cant take on challenges and become lazy. Sure kids and (wife for that matter) takes up a lot of time and very much less sleep in the beginning, heck even later at times. But is that an excuse to make a game so convenient that its gonna be boring in the long run ? no not for me. Ive seen veterans in the Legion with no legs fixing their own tires even if there was youth standing next to em wanting to help. So guess its more of an convenience thing on demand this is being asked for which for me should be under mods not in game since you gonna casualize the game by implementing this for all players. So with that said and dont want to sound disrespectful of your lifestyle or anything since you choose your own way to enjoy it or coup, as what life is all about. But to me you sound more like you have become or always have been an man with his slippers on complaining about that paper who didnt come in to the slider of your door and in right time. I could be wrong and im sorry for my bad judgment if so, but with these statements the indications shows :wink: Ps.Ive seen husbands cheat, beat their wifes, forfeit their children and sitting home in their comfort judging people in war and pain from the tv... so no just because someone have a job and family doesnt make em a real man (was ment as a statement in general not directed)

However more mercenaries (when economy balances as you said) could be a thing though but as before they cost more salary wise
 
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Lilkidlover

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Man its a part of the M&B experience but by all means get a macro that do everything for you in game so you can sip and drink coffee :smile: theres prob player AI programmed to so you dont have to fight as well as invincible troops so they cant die

In my opionion the "difficult" thing should not be to find recruits or weak enemys in order to level your units.
The difficult thing should be to get enough money to affort high tier units.
so ive read all your back and forth and to be honest i think there is a way to implement a system that would make both of you happy. i agree with Dr.Shinobi, getting your troops back after a loss its too OP, i mean it will take emotion away from battles. At the moment you really have to think about what battles you want to fight and how you are going to aproach that specific enemy. if you take that away the game will lose some of its charm. on the other hand the leveling up its a bit grindy. specially if you play as sturgia who bearly has any towns and they are all really spaced out. so i think that the ransome of a very small part of your army would be nice, but just a small portion of it and that would depend on the npcs traits. if you have an honorable npc he might let your soldiers go or ask for a fair price, if you have an npc who is ruthless then he can either ask for a very hig price, he might refuse or he might execute them. i really want to see npcs traits matter. anyways at the moment paying for your units back is very op, since right now making money is just really easy, i dont even know what to do with all the money i have.
 

Kreu2009

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Well for the second part that if you died in Vermintide you still got progression and you dd´nt loose anything so yeah it proves the point that its an easy mans progression type of game.
You also don't loose all progression in Dark souls or Bannerlord. For example you never loose all your skill points, towns or relationships.
You only loose all progression in rogue like games. Also a game is not only difficult because of how big the settback is after you fail.
How difficult it is to overcome the challenge in the first place is as important as the setback.
In Bannerlord making progress is very easy, doesn't mather the difficulty. If you don't take any risky fights you can't really loose progress while you still make progress. If i lett my girlfriend, who never played a strategy game, play Bannerlord, im sure she can conquer the entire map. Might just take a bit longer. But she can't beat the highest difficultys in vermintide or dark souls. So i would say these games are more challenging.


Just because you have a full time job and kids doesnt mean you still cant take on challenges and become lazy.
Nobody said you never want challenges. For me challenges are the reason why i play games. But the challenge must be fun. Leveling units in Bannerlord isn't fun. So i propose the challenge should be to get money. Because this challenge can be fun.

@Dr-Shinobi
How many hours do you have in Bannerlord and do you enjoy leveling units?


anyways at the moment paying for your units back is very op, since right now making money is just really easy, i dont even know what to do with all the money i have.
Thats totally true. Right now you're swiming in money. Thats why i wrote this:
Right now you are constantly swimming in money. So any way to quickly gain access to high level troops just by money would be really strong.
I think once the economy is bether balanced and money actually becomes a rare ressource, there is no problem with buying high tier units.
Money should be a hard to get ressource. Also you should have to think carefully about where you want to invest your money. Why don't i have to pay for buildings in my settlements? Getting a workshop is to much of a no brainer. The game needs more complexity in that regard. Getting a high prosperity in towns and villages is to easy too.
 
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Dr-Shinobi

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You also don't loose all progression in Dark souls or Bannerlord. For example you never loose all your skill points, towns or relationships.
You only loose all progression in rogue like games. Also a game is not only difficult because of how big the settback is after you fail.
How difficult it is to overcome the challenge in the first place is as important as the setback.
In Bannerlord making progress is very easy, doesn't mather the difficulty. If you don't take any risky fights you can't really loose progress while you still make progress. If i lett my girlfriend, who never played a strategy game, play Bannerlord, im sure she can conquer the entire map. Might just take a bit longer. But she can't beat the highest difficultys in vermintide or dark souls. So i would say these games are more challenging.



Nobody said you never want challenges. For me challenges are the reason why i play games. But the challenge must be fun. Leveling units in Bannerlord isn't fun. So i propose the challenge should be to get money. Because this challenge can be fun.

@Dr-Shinobi
How many hours do you have in Bannerlord and do you enjoy leveling units?



Thats totally true. Right now you're swiming in money. Thats why i wrote this:


Money should be a hard to get ressource. Also you should have to think carefully about where you want to invest your money. Why don't i have to pay for buildings in my settlements? Getting a workshop is to much of a no brainer. The game needs more complexity in that regard. Getting a high prosperity in towns and villages is to easy too.
I see your points and yeah im not saying that Vermintide isnt a challenging game within the actually game play. Just saying that its very easy to level up in and dont punish you that much in that regard so you dont feel you got a responsibility or risk so to speak if loosing. Well you do towards your teammates though in another sense to make the maps and to gain extra xp. Dark souls is another type of psychological sadomasochism thing, since you can spend damn hours of hours just to get thru one obstacle (Anor Londo to be mentioned) which i miss from older games :smile: And you do loose all the points you get from the enemies you slayed to be utilized, if you cant reach the next bond fire. I remember the state i was in after finishing ending the first game without looking for solutions what so ever at the internet ^^ but the best part there that you can finish that game multiple times and it gets more difficult each time. However its bit easier to since you know what to do

I got 520 hours at the moment in Bannerlord and only been playing on Realism/Challenge mode since day 2 because first play thru was on easy i think to test the waters
 
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xHDxzero

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However more mercenaries (when economy balances as you said) could be a thing though but as before they cost more salary wise
i would say that is even OP then buying back your own men. because right now in the current game even if they had 2 times the normal upkeep it would still not be that expensive with how much money you gain from fiefs, caravans, etc. so it would mean that you could just buy mercs instead of normal soldiers. i think right now that most mechanics that use money to get things are OP simply because they player can easely get a stupid amount of daily income. like in my last game had 12k a day


You already got the upper hand against the enemy with faster rate to train soldiers so if you can now buy em back (even small portions of em) it would unbalance the game in my opinion
it could be become unblanced if you could back buy back your entire army after a loss. that is why i said that it should not be big part of the party only small bit of it and it should be really expensive(i would say that you should pay 10x the amount that unit sells at the ransom broker to get it back). and in the current state of the game with the same guy being able to reform a army 3 days after you beat i would not say you have the uppper hand.
You get your army back in no time and if you want it back quicker just train in Leadership
i found that leadership does barly anything to get them back. and even then with leadership being such a pain to level right now unless you start with it you wont have acces to until you can lead big armies. and even then can you tell me with honesty that grinding looters for a ingame week is fun?
when i am in the vassal stage i want to fight big battles and siege fiefs. not grinding weeks to replace every lost soldier that i lost in the defeat

Man its a part of the M&B experience
yes it is part of the mount and blade experience but that does not mean it is fun. i would say that being allowed to get back troops easier would make the game more fun because then you can take more risks. right now if you see a big army. you would never try to fight it unless you are almost 100% sure that you can beat it. if you dont lose every thing after a defeat then you may take risks that you could in the past not have justified because they would be too costly
 

Kreu2009

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But to me you sound more like you have become or always have been an man with his slippers on complaining about that paper who didnt come in to the slider of your door and in right time. I could be wrong and im sorry for my bad judgment if so, but with these statements the indications shows
If you don't know another person there is no reason to assume how they life their life. Especially in a discussion in a forum. If you don't want to sound disrespectfull just don't do that. Always argue about the point the other person is making never about the person. It looks like you're trying to take away another person credibility.


I got 520 hours at the moment in Bannerlord and only been playing on Realism/Challenge mode since day 2 because first play thru was on easy i think to test the waters
How much fun is leveling units for you?

By @xHDxzero
"i think right now that most mechanics that use money to get things are OP simply because they player can easely get a stupid amount of daily income "

exactly. Being able to buy elite units with money isn't op. If you pair that with the player having to much money it gets op.
 

ironiccookies

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What happens to units that flee? Do they just disappear or are they considered prisoners? Maybe make it so we can only recruit back the ones who fled. It's not like in every battle everyone dies or becomes a prisoner. Some do manage to escape and fight another day.
 

Kreu2009

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It's not like in every battle everyone dies or becomes a prisoner. Some do manage to escape and fight another day.
I would say thats also partly the reason for faction snowballing. If a faction looses a battle they almost always loose their entire army with every single lord in that battle.
 

Dr-Shinobi

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If you don't know another person there is no reason to assume how they life their life. Especially in a discussion in a forum. If you don't want to sound disrespectfull just don't do that. Always argue about the point the other person is making never about the person. It looks like you're trying to take away another person credibility.



How much fun is leveling units for you?

By @xHDxzero
"i think right now that most mechanics that use money to get things are OP simply because they player can easely get a stupid amount of daily income "

exactly. Being able to buy elite units with money isn't op. If you pair that with the player having to much money it gets op.
Thats why i told you i was sorry in advance (which was a sign of respect) and no need to be dramatic about it
For me its part of the game i like, that also comes from warband and it brings an tactical sort of punishment + "sort of" reality towards the game play. I dont like handouts in games but they have to be fair as well. In that sense i dont like cheating AI even if i can understand that sometimes it has to be there because of balance issues or just the technology or programming knowledge and limitations at hand
 

Kreu2009

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Thats why i told you i was sorry in advance and no need to be dramatic about it
Saying sorry in advance does not really change the statement XD
"Sorry in advance but i think you always take the way of least resistance in your life"
You see the "sorry" doesn't really help. It also doesn't get bether by adding emotes behind the statement.
But you are right there is no reason to get dramatic about it. Discussions just tend to get toxic quite quickly a soon as people start talking about other people instead of the topic. So this is just a little advise by me. No harsh feelings and you also don't have to follow it.

(in short: saying "sorry in advance" does not make a following statement less disrespetful)

Now back to the topic. Yes it comes from Warband but in warband people were already complaining about it too.
In my opioion instead of leveling soldiers the main challenge should come from acquiring money. I can totally understand if you disagree with that.


In that sense i dont like cheating AI even if i can understand that sometimes it has to be there because of balance issues or just the technology or knowledge at hand
Yeah i know only one strategy game that does not have cheating AI. Age of Empires 2 DE. But they needed years of development to get to that point. So i sadly don't think taleworlds will be able to archieve that.
 
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