If you get facehugged when wielding board and spear it can be usefull, but its not used a lot.
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Rank 1 Gamer Thoughts on Bannerlord PvP
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I think the window after shieldbashing doesn't allow you to hit before the guy blocks, bash takes more than kicks to wind up.
Dr-Shinobi
kk thnx always interesting to know what techniques people are using in battle
But you can move around a bit to hit on the side after it though but depends on the class i guess because of agility
Aprikosenmann
Knight
The best usage is with a spear and shield to get spammers away. Also you can use it when aproaching archers.
Dr-Shinobi
Yes that i know since you have range and thats your best domain being a spear man even if you can land close hits
Its just that im curious if those advance duel fighters are using it without an shield instead of kicks in some situations. Since ive noticed in SP that kicks can be risky since you need to be very close to the character for it to land then using shield bash with weapon. So if you dont have a shield and still want to control the situation along with footwork ofc, kicks can be riskier so to speak...But its just theories here and is why im asking
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That's fair. Still interesting to see who can cut it without the use of those mechanics.
Sounds to me like the combination of tanky units + nothing to abuse that high level play will consist only of learning kicks, feints, blocks and attacks
Dr-Shinobi
Hope for no Chivalry two handed zweihander sword dancing to be implemented ^^ Damn i loved that game, but man those guys xD Even if it was some form of controlled skills for sure of which i lift my hat to, it was pure cancer
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This was the intention of Warband aswell though. Taleworlds never planned for the mechanics to be manipulated for that skill gap. Having a high skill gap has never seemed to be a priority of theirs.
You're just angry that you can't left swing feint spam 360 noscope blunt-hit bait bend like you can in warband you ****ing casual
Dr-Shinobi
lol but you can actually do an 360 jump kill with the two hander...Most prob one as well...Ive done it in BL
Only prob is that the only one managed to get recorded attempting it was snagged by an stinky Javeline guy xD But technically its there and possible
even if your athletics might not be the best in MP from my understanding ^^
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That's pretty high level for casual
@RodLimitless
Good post, you brought up a lot of glaring issues myself and many others have seen with Bannerlord. With that being said, I think you are confusing one thing:
In a Mount&Blade game, equipment and keybinds ≠ skillcap.
The skillcap in games like Warband and Bannerlord derive entirely from the combat mechanics.
The difference in skillcap between Warband and Bannerlord can be attributed to a very specific root cause: RNG and a lack of thorough understanding of how the game works.
For example, Warband has a higher skillcap than Bannerlord because in Warband every facet of character movement, attacking, blocking, angling, and positioning can be measured and counted for.
Warband veterans know to the point of mastery the range and timing of every type of swing (up, left, right, stab) of the weapons they use, and conversely the weapons their opponent are using. These parameters don't change, and if they do it is because of variables the player controls (i.e. factions and the presence of a shield or not). Additionally, they know which angle of their swing (up/down tilt) will get their weapon the fastest possible contact with the enemy. Stun lock/stun delay is thoroughly understood, and used to maximum benefit when it occurs. Last but not least, Warband veterans know how seamlessly responsive Warband is, making their attacks and blocks smooth and near-instinctive.
And ^this^ is just for infantry melee fighting. We can talk about how consistent the archery and cav mechanics are in Warband but we'd be here all day.
Bannerlord on the other hand, has a number of issues which contribute to RNG and a general head-scratching bewilderment about how the combat works.
-The Stance System
The Bannerlord stance system affects the speed and range of swings depending on which stance you're in -something that is difficult for the player to control when they're in the heat of very intense combat. This obviously creates inconsistency in the combat mechanics and makes it near impossible to fully master distance and timing -because distance and timing are now subject to a degree of randomness.
-Weird Character Movement
This has been somewhat improved upon in recent patches, but the issue remains. Bannerlord characters can accelerate very rapidly and then rotate at weird unnatural angles. There are also many variables attached to movement, such as class speed, which shield they are using, attacking, blocking, and S+A/S+D. Why is this bad? Because, when compared to Warband -which had much more measured and consistent character movement, rotation rate, and acceleration speed, this adds a degree of randomness to the fighting. Suddenly positioning and range becomes a lot less consistent. I can't tell you how many times I've hit someone flush, dealing a chunk of damage, only to suddenly miss on my immediate follow-up swing because they were able to scoot away. Like how? Oh, wait, it's because there's almost no penalty to movement speed when you get hit. Oh and pro-tip, if you're fighting someone better than you in Bannerlord, just try spinning -that's good trick.
-Inconsistent Hitboxes and Weapon Reach
Weapons feel functionally shorter than they actually appear (except for some maces and short swords, which feel longer than they look). The hitboxes also seem really janked at times. A lot of either ghost-hits or unexplainable straight-up whiffs on a pretty nice-sized targets. The friendly fire too, allied hitboxes just seem to be magnet for teammate attacks. And don't get me started on the those wall-hit that your weapons always get stuck on. Something just feels off about the hitboxes. I might be the only one thinking this, or maybe it's not just me. Who knows, that's just my take.
-Over-exaggerated Swing Animations
Warband had nice tight animations. It really put the player in control of where they were attacking. In Bannerlord they bring the weapon all the way behind their back like they're in a bad 80s movie. It's a ridiculous over-windup of the swing and it causes you to hit things more at your sides than what's in front of you. All too often I've actually hit an enemy I wasn't even aiming at simply because of the over-exaggerated swings -and if that's not RNG/inconsistency then I don't know what is.
-Arbitrary Delays
Block delay was a battle that raged for months. Now the issue of attack/hold delay sadly remains. I mentioned earlier about Warband being so seamless and responsive. Held attacks were a major part of melee fighting, used to throw off your opponent's rhythm, open them up, or foil an opponent trying to chamber you. Well now with Bannerlord's extra animation attached to held attacks (known as hold delay), holds become a lot less powerful. Additionally, keep in mind that it only takes your left mouse button being held down for a few milliseconds to trigger a hold delay, so many times this issue happens even when you're not trying to do a held attack.
-Archery
Not so much having to do with RNG/inconsistency, but adding to the skillcap issue all the same. Incredibly user-friendly, drop-assist in 3rd person, arrows are auto-nocked after every shot, high archer mobility, high dps. Bannerlord's tagline at Early Access launch should have been: "Now you too can play as John Wick."
-Misc.
Non-uniform infantry movement speed between the factions, creating a big disconnect between faction infantry abilities.
See above but now apply to different infantry classes.
Kicking (especially before 1.5 patch. If you are one of those people who said kicking was fine pre-1.5 then sorry but you are a shill.)
Broken chamber blocking.
Throwing weapons accuracy/damage (has seen improvement though)
The hitboxes for horses' heads are a magnet for melee damage thus protecting the rider from attacks that would otherwise hit them.
I love Warband -it's my most-played game of all time. This doesn't mean I hate Bannerlord. I don't. I've had fun playing Bannerlord, but not as much as I would have liked to. I really want to enjoy Bannerlord, but this would mean removing the issues of inconsistency/RNG which are currently plaguing it. I really hope Taleworlds takes these issues into account and improves the multiplayer experience for everyone.
Good post, you brought up a lot of glaring issues myself and many others have seen with Bannerlord. With that being said, I think you are confusing one thing:
In a Mount&Blade game, equipment and keybinds ≠ skillcap.
The skillcap in games like Warband and Bannerlord derive entirely from the combat mechanics.
The difference in skillcap between Warband and Bannerlord can be attributed to a very specific root cause: RNG and a lack of thorough understanding of how the game works.
For example, Warband has a higher skillcap than Bannerlord because in Warband every facet of character movement, attacking, blocking, angling, and positioning can be measured and counted for.
Warband veterans know to the point of mastery the range and timing of every type of swing (up, left, right, stab) of the weapons they use, and conversely the weapons their opponent are using. These parameters don't change, and if they do it is because of variables the player controls (i.e. factions and the presence of a shield or not). Additionally, they know which angle of their swing (up/down tilt) will get their weapon the fastest possible contact with the enemy. Stun lock/stun delay is thoroughly understood, and used to maximum benefit when it occurs. Last but not least, Warband veterans know how seamlessly responsive Warband is, making their attacks and blocks smooth and near-instinctive.
And ^this^ is just for infantry melee fighting. We can talk about how consistent the archery and cav mechanics are in Warband but we'd be here all day.
Bannerlord on the other hand, has a number of issues which contribute to RNG and a general head-scratching bewilderment about how the combat works.
-The Stance System
The Bannerlord stance system affects the speed and range of swings depending on which stance you're in -something that is difficult for the player to control when they're in the heat of very intense combat. This obviously creates inconsistency in the combat mechanics and makes it near impossible to fully master distance and timing -because distance and timing are now subject to a degree of randomness.
-Weird Character Movement
This has been somewhat improved upon in recent patches, but the issue remains. Bannerlord characters can accelerate very rapidly and then rotate at weird unnatural angles. There are also many variables attached to movement, such as class speed, which shield they are using, attacking, blocking, and S+A/S+D. Why is this bad? Because, when compared to Warband -which had much more measured and consistent character movement, rotation rate, and acceleration speed, this adds a degree of randomness to the fighting. Suddenly positioning and range becomes a lot less consistent. I can't tell you how many times I've hit someone flush, dealing a chunk of damage, only to suddenly miss on my immediate follow-up swing because they were able to scoot away. Like how? Oh, wait, it's because there's almost no penalty to movement speed when you get hit. Oh and pro-tip, if you're fighting someone better than you in Bannerlord, just try spinning -that's good trick.
-Inconsistent Hitboxes and Weapon Reach
Weapons feel functionally shorter than they actually appear (except for some maces and short swords, which feel longer than they look). The hitboxes also seem really janked at times. A lot of either ghost-hits or unexplainable straight-up whiffs on a pretty nice-sized targets. The friendly fire too, allied hitboxes just seem to be magnet for teammate attacks. And don't get me started on the those wall-hit that your weapons always get stuck on. Something just feels off about the hitboxes. I might be the only one thinking this, or maybe it's not just me. Who knows, that's just my take.
-Over-exaggerated Swing Animations
Warband had nice tight animations. It really put the player in control of where they were attacking. In Bannerlord they bring the weapon all the way behind their back like they're in a bad 80s movie. It's a ridiculous over-windup of the swing and it causes you to hit things more at your sides than what's in front of you. All too often I've actually hit an enemy I wasn't even aiming at simply because of the over-exaggerated swings -and if that's not RNG/inconsistency then I don't know what is.
-Arbitrary Delays
Block delay was a battle that raged for months. Now the issue of attack/hold delay sadly remains. I mentioned earlier about Warband being so seamless and responsive. Held attacks were a major part of melee fighting, used to throw off your opponent's rhythm, open them up, or foil an opponent trying to chamber you. Well now with Bannerlord's extra animation attached to held attacks (known as hold delay), holds become a lot less powerful. Additionally, keep in mind that it only takes your left mouse button being held down for a few milliseconds to trigger a hold delay, so many times this issue happens even when you're not trying to do a held attack.
-Archery
Not so much having to do with RNG/inconsistency, but adding to the skillcap issue all the same. Incredibly user-friendly, drop-assist in 3rd person, arrows are auto-nocked after every shot, high archer mobility, high dps. Bannerlord's tagline at Early Access launch should have been: "Now you too can play as John Wick."
-Misc.
Non-uniform infantry movement speed between the factions, creating a big disconnect between faction infantry abilities.
See above but now apply to different infantry classes.
Kicking (especially before 1.5 patch. If you are one of those people who said kicking was fine pre-1.5 then sorry but you are a shill.)
Broken chamber blocking.
Throwing weapons accuracy/damage (has seen improvement though)
The hitboxes for horses' heads are a magnet for melee damage thus protecting the rider from attacks that would otherwise hit them.
I love Warband -it's my most-played game of all time. This doesn't mean I hate Bannerlord. I don't. I've had fun playing Bannerlord, but not as much as I would have liked to. I really want to enjoy Bannerlord, but this would mean removing the issues of inconsistency/RNG which are currently plaguing it. I really hope Taleworlds takes these issues into account and improves the multiplayer experience for everyone.
@Hans 77 thank you, that is exactly the kind of thing the OP needs to read. Everyone else has somehow managed to derail this into an e-peen measuring contest.
As someone said, Warband is old and tired, not saying it can’t still be fun but it won’t change anymore. Bannerlord is still in EA and judging by the pace of development it’s gonna be here a little while. We have a chance to mould the game still, and even if they (Taleworlds) don’t budge on certain things the more they do budge on the better it can be.
For the record I barely play anymore except to play destiny pick ups because a) knowing everyone in the game is a decent player, the current ranking system is a little ****(not taleworlds fault, it’s impossible to get it perfect) b) the voice comms and teamwork is exactly what I wanted out of this game that Warband didn’t really have.
As someone said, Warband is old and tired, not saying it can’t still be fun but it won’t change anymore. Bannerlord is still in EA and judging by the pace of development it’s gonna be here a little while. We have a chance to mould the game still, and even if they (Taleworlds) don’t budge on certain things the more they do budge on the better it can be.
For the record I barely play anymore except to play destiny pick ups because a) knowing everyone in the game is a decent player, the current ranking system is a little ****(not taleworlds fault, it’s impossible to get it perfect) b) the voice comms and teamwork is exactly what I wanted out of this game that Warband didn’t really have.
There's a reason why major esports don't have 20+ abilities at the same time and why WoW PvP is unpopular despite its titanic tryhard fanbase. M&B is more like Rocket League or CSGO than League of Legends or WoW.
Also, if we're stroking e-peens, the games I do well at are complex: I've gotten to top 0.004% (#290 NA) in Teamfight Tactics, high ranks in other strategy games, and I got brought on as an assistant VOD analyst for an OWL team. There are elements from TFT that would work well in Bannerlord, but M&B is about the core combat elements (+positioning), just like how RL and CSGO are about core mechanical skills (+positioning).
AGREE.
Superimposing more complexity on the M&B system would raise skill in an artificial way. The core combat system has to be strong or the rest of the game will flop.
This is not the case in Captain mode, where strategic complexity is an absolute necessity, but completely absent. The game mode has few viable classes and little room to grow. Even if shock was balanced, most of the other classes and factions are pretty much the same, except for Khuzait, who are unfun to play against.
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@RodLimitless Adding to what Hans and Brandis have to say, Mount and Blade is the 'easy to learn, hard to master' type game.
Swinging/blocking, footwork and game sense are the most important things for skill, rather than a load of extra keybinds.
But yes, gear selection similar to Warband (the previous game) would be great.
Swinging/blocking, footwork and game sense are the most important things for skill, rather than a load of extra keybinds.
But yes, gear selection similar to Warband (the previous game) would be great.
While I agree there are (glaring) problems with the combat, I don't think it's true to say it's "low skillcap", at least not at the individual level. I would be highly, highly surprised if you can go 1v1 against the best MnB players and do well if you've only played for a week and have no prior Warband experience.
Now, is it arguably too easy to survive as a much worse player and take up the opponent's time or get cheap kills, which creates plenty of balance issues at the Skirmish level? Absolutely. I'd say that's more a balance issue than a skillcap one however, and team gameplay has plenty of its own skill characteristics as well.
The fact that OP has left this post and not replied after 7 pages probably indicates that it is a troll. If they are up for proving their point though, I'm sure plenty of people would be up for duelling them.
Now, is it arguably too easy to survive as a much worse player and take up the opponent's time or get cheap kills, which creates plenty of balance issues at the Skirmish level? Absolutely. I'd say that's more a balance issue than a skillcap one however, and team gameplay has plenty of its own skill characteristics as well.
The fact that OP has left this post and not replied after 7 pages probably indicates that it is a troll. If they are up for proving their point though, I'm sure plenty of people would be up for duelling them.
it already has this -- skirmish -- 3 players who somewhat know what they are doing vs the other 3 who somewhat know what they are doing
@RodLimitless I met you yesterday doing those 'big team deathmatches' and I can assure you; you have not reached the skillcap, even if you got the fattest telescope you wouldn't be able to see it that is how far off you are.
Those TDM fights are looked upon as a joke by everybody who somewhat plays competitively, that are casual players in a new game.
If you want to see skill you need to participate in the tournaments, if you don't have buddies destiny pickups also works very well.
1v1 doesn't really matter, I'm fairly **** at 1v1 but do better in groupfights than people who beat me in 1v1. It's hard to see improvement in your own gameplay.
Those TDM fights are looked upon as a joke by everybody who somewhat plays competitively, that are casual players in a new game.
If you want to see skill you need to participate in the tournaments, if you don't have buddies destiny pickups also works very well.
1v1 doesn't really matter, I'm fairly **** at 1v1 but do better in groupfights than people who beat me in 1v1. It's hard to see improvement in your own gameplay.
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