RAMBO TACTIC, DEAR CAPTAINS, CAST UR VOTE!

What parameter of the mode should be turned to combat this tactic ?

  • Buff spears and pikes

    Votes: 6 9.5%
  • Nerf cav

    Votes: 6 9.5%
  • Make it impossible to park any unit class

    Votes: 11 17.5%
  • Make it impossible to park cav only

    Votes: 6 9.5%
  • Fix archers

    Votes: 10 15.9%
  • Something else need's to be done

    Votes: 24 38.1%

  • Total voters
    63

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NC and VoV are really good at rambo tactics. WoV you wont see doing this, since WoV don't exists anymore. And everyone was doing this tactic in the CL2 also. Like I said in my previous post, those clans don't like to do this tactic. They do it because they got no other tactical options with certain factions vs other certain factions. It's not about K/D ratio, it's about to win also, or what is the point to play really?
The point of captain mode is to control troops and to work together with your teammates to form a cohesive army to take on the enemies army. If you are not doing this, you aren't playing the mode as it was intended. I don't care if the Ai is bad, the Ai will always be bad no matter how much you improve it. The ai being bad doesn't prevent you from controlling them, they just won't be as effective as a player character going off alone. The solution is simple, stop separating from your units, if players aren't willing to make this change by themselves then It needs to be something that is enforced. If you want to fight the enemy, fight alongside your troops, pretend that you only have 1 life if you have to as you would in real life and treat your own life as precious, you wouldn't go off alone if you were fighting against an army.

If you want to engage in a more player-combat oriented gameplay, there are now 4 other modes which facilitate this at different levels and players may freely choose to play those modes. Captain is the only mode which focuses around troop control and it absolutely needs to focus on this. There is absolutely nothing challenging or fun about killing mass amounts bots as a player character. The tactical gameplay derives from unit positioning, troop composition, team coordination, and formation control. Cheesing the ai, while effective, is not to be considered as a respectable or fundamental tactic in the mode.
 
I very much disagree with you, without a playerbase it might as well not exist at all. EA or no EA, if you think people will come back rather than move on to new games I think you are mistaken. TW has a chance to preserve the fanbase that already exists for the game if they act quickly enough. If they don't resolve rambo completely soon then there will be nothing left to work with after EA. Custom servers for example, where we can adjust the game mechanics ourselves, and no one is left playing Vanilla.
I don't think that is how the great majority of players think about BL. Many are long time veterans of warband. Insanely loyal to this type of game. Many will leave the mode because of rambo, but many will also leave the mode because of a poor "fix", that we don't even know will fix anything. Better to even close the gdamn mode, then fix it the right way, even if that takes a long time, than trying to keep a medium size playerbase in a mediocre mode with a poor gameplay. And the second you buy the game, TW have got it's investment anyway. I am 100% sure players that will leave the mode while it is being fixed, will return when the news of a functionally and really fun mode breaks!
 
I don't think that is how the great majority of players think about BL. Many are long time veterans of warband. Insanely loyal to this type of game. Many will leave the mode because of rambo, but many will also leave the mode because of a poor "fix", that we don't even know will fix anything. Better to even close the gdamn mode, then fix it the right way, even if that takes a long time, than trying to keep a medium size playerbase in a midcore mode with a poor gameplay. And the second you buy the game, TW have got it's investment anyway. I am 100% sure players that will leave the mode while it is being fixed, will return when the news of a functionally and really fun mode breaks!
I think separating from your units and manipulating ai is poor gameplay, and tethering prevents this. The tactics that you defend "Scouting" - scout with a group of light cav, "baiting" - bait with a group of ai, "distracting units" - distract them with a group of units, "positioning archers" -stay with your archers, "holding a point" - hold the point with your units. These tactics don't go away, what goes away is you being able to achieve this with 1 person, which is simply poor gameplay design.
 
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The point of captain mode is to control troops and to work together with your teammates to form a cohesive army to take on the enemies army. If you are not doing this, you aren't playing the mode as it was intended. I don't care if the Ai is bad, the Ai will always be bad no matter how much you improve it. The ai being bad doesn't prevent you from controlling them, they just won't be as effective as a player character going off alone. The solution is simple, stop separating from your units, if players aren't willing to make this change by themselves then It needs to be something that is enforced. If you want to fight the enemy, fight alongside your troops, pretend that you only have 1 life if you have to as you would in real life and treat your own life as precious, you wouldn't go off alone if you were fighting against an army.

If you want to engage in a more player-combat oriented gameplay, there are now 4 other modes which facilitate this at different levels and players may freely choose to play those modes. Captain is the only mode which focuses around troop control and it absolutely needs to focus on this. There is absolutely nothing challenging or fun about killing mass amounts bots as a player character. The tactical gameplay derives from unit positioning, troop composition, team coordination, and formation control. Cheesing the ai, while effective, is not to be considered as a respectable or fundamental tactic in the mode.
Read my suggestions. With those fixes, going solo with 1 unit, skirmish style, is possible if you want, but not effective and you can easy counter it. And it opens up the gameplay to do many combinations of classes, all viable. That will in turn create so many possible tactics also. You are focusing way too much on rambo and how to make it impossible to do. Don't let your hatred to that tactic blind you.
 
Read my suggestions. With those fixes, going solo with 1 unit, skirmish style, is possible if you want, but not effective and you can easy counter it. And it opens up the gameplay to do many combinations of classes, all viable. That will in turn create so many possible tactics also. You are focusing way too much on rambo and how to make it impossible to do. Don't let your hatred to that tactic blind you.
I read your suggestions. Skirmish style and going solo should not be possible at all whether it is optimal or suboptimal it should be removed from the game.
 
I read your suggestions. Skirmish style and going solo should not be possible at all whether it is optimal or suboptimal it should be removed from the game.
But why? Park your units and go solo to take the flag for instance. So someone leave his squad to fool around. Omg be my guest. My archers will kill him. My skirmishes will kill him. My inf will kill him easy. It's NOT an effective tactic to use 1 unit, with my suggestions. When **** hits the fan he better have his units close by, or he will die and lose precious time, when the enemy decides to go for it. Numbers and formations is way way way way way more effective than 1 single enemy unit that "comes for you".

When the mode is fixed, and rambo is gone.. There will be no situations where anyone should go 1 unit.. They only go one unit because of rambo cav, while letting the rest of the units stay back in support for parked cav.
 
But why? Park your units and go solo to take the flag for instance. So someone leave his squad to fool around. Omg be my guest. My archers will kill him. My skirmishes will kill him. My inf will kill him easy. It's NOT an effective tactic to use 1 unit, with my suggestions. When **** hits the fan he better have his units close by, or he will die and lose precious time, when the the enemy decides to go for it. Numbers and formations is way way way way way more effective than 1 single enemy unit that "comes for you".
Go with your units to capture the flag, you don't need to do this alone. A captain should be present to command his troops.
 
Go with your units to capture the flag, you don't need to do this alone. A captain should be present to command his troops.
Why not?, it has no influence on the overall gameplay. It is simply not wise for the captain to leave his troops. He will risk not being ready to swiftly be in formation with the rest of his team, and leave them hanging in crucial moments. And that is what it is all about. You can make mistakes and lose if not having 100% control of your units.
 
Why not?, it has no influence on the overall gameplay. It is simply not wise for the captain to leave his troops. He will risk not being ready to swiftly be in formation with the rest of his team, and leave them hanging in crucial moments. And that is what it is all about. You can make mistakes and lose if not having 100% control of your units.
You can make mistakes while controlling your units too, and this forces the player to prioritize their unit positioning to decide whether they want to capture a flag or stay and fight with the team, the opportunity cost is if they leave they can capture a flag, if they don't leave they can contribute to the fight.
 
Why not?, it has no influence on the overall gameplay. It is simply not wise for the captain to leave his troops. He will risk not being ready to swiftly be in formation with the rest of his team, and leave them hanging in crucial moments. And that is what it is all about. You can make mistakes and lose if not having 100% control of your units.
If the tether is a large enough distance to still facilitate a player Ramboing but also forces their troops to be in range to be countered then doesn't that give you both options but not make it a stupid park your units miles away in safety on the opposite effect of the map? Rambos can have their cake but non rambos also get to eat it :smile:
 
I doubt ranged AI will ever be able to kill a player capping a point if he moves around. Much less in melee.

I would agree with the solo cap if it took much longer, giving time to react.
 
Imo, quite simple fix is needed.
Make the game logic identify the player and the "center" (or bulk) of his troops. Then the player's relative position to the center of his troop formation. If the player is farther away than, let's say, 20 in-game meters, a hidden timer begins ticking. If he's not back with the troops in... 15 seconds, kill the player and make him respawn, without delay, as one of his soldiers. This is rather extreme, but my reasoning for the need for something like this is rather simple.

While I do agree with those of you who say reconnaissance and skirmishing are important, the issue is: the human player has too many advantages over the AI. And what REALLY disrupts the game due to the Ramboes is, quite simply, the fact that the AI goes bat**** insane and totally haywire whenever a human starts whacking them in the head from a direction that's not the one his allied troops are coming from. That's a deal breaker, since a charge against troops who are all turned 180 degrees from the attackers is simply impossible to deal with, even with timely use of formations.

You can't let a human player circle with impunity around an AI formation (which might have a captain who's on foot and cannot intervene no matter what he does if the other is on horseback) and expect to have a fair game. The player on horseback will probably have fun, that's for sure. The player on foot will not, unless the player on horseback is careless enough to just get surrounded by angry AI soldiers. Also, even if the captain on horseback fights with the troops of another captain on horseback, the attacking captain will always have the advantage of NOT having to babysit his troops while trying to outmaneuver another human player. (You know, since Ramboes almost always park their troops 250km away.)
 
Many players would also leave the mode if a quick, cheap "fix", that wont repair the mode, would be implemented. I think me included.
me too
You are focusing way too much on rambo and how to make it impossible to do. Don't let your hatred to that tactic blind you.
i completely agree... for me this persistence (I don’t think Rambo’s tactics are serious, and even more so, the primary problem) looks like an obsession or a way to attract attention at any cost... sry
Why not?, it has no influence on the overall gameplay. It is simply not wise for the captain to leave his troops. He will risk not being ready to swiftly be in formation with the rest of his team, and leave them hanging in crucial moments. And that is what it is all about. You can make mistakes and lose if not having 100% control of your units.
indeed it is.
 
Easy fix: make sure a captain who is far from his troops gets -50% attack, armor and HP. He gets a "Nervous and Lonely" status debuff.

Pros: they can still capture flags, observe the battlefield and even duel each other. But solo cheesing dumb AI will not end well.

Cons: only 3000 hours skirmish Great Nolifers of the Dread will dare to go rambo. You can not counter those anyway, so let them.
 
Easy fix: make sure a captain who is far from his troops gets -50% attack, armor and HP. He gets a "Nervous and Lonely" status debuff.

Pros: they can still capture flags, observe the battlefield and even duel each other. But solo cheesing dumb AI will not end well.

Cons: only 3000 hours skirmish Great Nolifers of the Dread will dare to go rambo. You can not counter those anyway, so let them.
My issue with that idea is it is still abuseable; most Ramboing I see is with Lances - and even with a 50% damage debuff a lance could still kill.

Also I find this solution a little... 'gamey' I guess.

The way i would introduce a tether is by having a wording come up simply stating;

'Your troops lack leadership! If you do not return to them within X seconds they will attack without orders!'

Fairly thematic; and much more apparent to a newer player exactly what they have 'done', how they resolve it and what will happen if they don't. A damage penalty will no doubt lead to a tonne of complaints about 'bugs' on the forum - not to mention what happens if all your troops are dead.
 
@Olaf Here is over of the problems I see with some of the proposed options in your vote...

In most cases we are taking about Ai ability to deal with things, mainly spears and cav... if you buff/nerf player stats the ai is also buffed/nerfed...

With this in mind...

You opted for buff spears, however ai spears handle ai cav quite well in my opinion, if you buff them then they take out the ai cav too easily.. and a player can down cav ai easy enough too, so that doesn't sound appealing

You also opted for nerf cav, however we need cav ai to be better so if you nerf a cav unit with the player in mind the cav ai are also nerfed, but that's not what we want either right?

Lastly with the above in mind as not being great fixes... (And I could be alone in this I don't know) but when 2 teams are Ramboing each other the game looks like a streaming pile... It's a mess, the captains league final few matches were cringe to watch from a what "the fark is this ****ty mode" perspective from the outside looking in, I was so keen to have spectator mode (didn't arrive in time)and chomping at the bit to make epic vids of cap league matches, big armies running cool strats etc.. it would have just turned it to be trash from a visual perspective and this is a pretty beautiful game.. btw no offense to the talent in the finals, clearly excellent players using the best tactics they could use based on what was allowed, it was what it was, but to say leaving your units and going solo is too big a risk to take... Clearly it's not, and that needs to be changed if the mode can get back to being captains mode again outside of some random que matches now and then

Not saying the game needs to be built in how it looks in a recording either lol.. Just an observation that erked me at the time
 
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@Olaf Here is over of the problems I see with some of the proposed options in your vote...

In most cases we are taking about Ai ability to deal with things, mainly spears and cav... if you buff/nerf player stats the ai is also buffed/nerfed...

With this in mind...

You opted for buff spears, however ai spears handle ai cav quite well in my opinion, if you buff them then they take out the ai cav too easily.. and a player can down cav ai easy enough too, so that doesn't sound appealing

You also opted for nerf cav, however we need cav ai to be better so if you nerf a cav unit with the player in mind the cav ai are also nerfed, but that's not what we want either right?

Lastly with the above in mind as not being great fixes... (And I could be alone in this I don't know) but when 2 teams are Ramboing each other the game looks like a streaming pile... It's a mess, the captains league final few matches were cringe to watch from a what "the fark is this ****ty mode" perspective from the outside looking in, I was so keen to have spectator mode (didn't arrive in time)and chomping at the bit to make epic vids of cap league matches, big armies running cool strats etc.. it would have just turned it to be trash from a visual perspective and this is a pretty beautiful game.. btw no offense to the talent in the finals, clearly excellent players using the best tactics they could use based on what was allowed, it was what it was, but to say leaving your units and going solo is too big a risk to take... Clearly it's not, and that needs to be changed if the mode can get back to being captains mode again outside of some random que matches now and then

Not saying the game needs to be built in how it looks in a recording either lol.. Just an observation that erked me at the time
Hi @Spottswoode

In the list of my suggestions, I did not mention spears. Because of the reason you are pointing out, that the AI simply will kill the cav too effective then. Spears are fine as they are now I think. I was talking about Pikes, for 2h and X-bow classes only. They need some command or other mechanic to couch their pikes. You know how a full cav attack can force the AI to change to pikes? I don't want that to change. It's a risk you have to take as a pike man. And It also encourages cav to attack with full stack, because a single rambo cav can't accomplice that.

I did not say cav AI need a nerf. Cav AI should NOT be nerfed! But they need a fix in their behavior after the captain uses f1f3. Right now the cav AI does a really good job in a full charge with the f1f3 command! They make so much damage, as they should! But after the charge they scatter too much I think. And that needs to be addressed to encourage cav players to use full cav attacks!

Try to read the list I made, and tell me what u think. I bet you agree with me!

About the CL2 tournament. Yes, the skill level of the finalists cannot and should not be ignored. But, I was also cringing myself into a fetal position when I was watching it. There was 0 unit control. I even saw a circle formation around the flag.. I mean cumon.

A spectator mode for the judges and to make real cool recording is ofc a must. And I also think that will happen at some point.

I really really think that 1 rambo unit, or even 6 rambo units, connot do any harm when they "come for you". That the AI is so horrible easy to defeat player vs bot, or even more bots, is not a problem or exploit I think. Remember, you have 120 units in the entire team. If 6 enemy captains comes to kill your teams bot's, then you need to react on that. 6 captains can do very very little vs 120 bot's, no matter if they have 10k hours and are the best players in the world. There is many ways to counter that situation. Being passive around the flag, and wait on a moral win, is not one of them. With my suggestions those rambo units wont get very far either. Because the range units are so strong, that even a single inf behind a shield will die pretty fast.

About why I am so against any form of the restrictions that have been suggested. It is mainly because the overall "progress" in captain mode have been a grotesque waste of time since 1.5.0. For the dev's and us testers. Time that I feel is starting to run out also. To put a leash on the troops in any way, if it's 1 meter or 100 meters is not the point here. Because it might be a direct way of forcing the playstyle of players into something else than rambo, but what then?? The balance problems between the factions will not go away with leaches. Archers will still be broken. Skirmishes will still be broken. The amount of viable tactics will be reduced. The captains skill level in unit control does not matter anymore. You don't need to be aware of where your troops are in relation to the enemy, just use f1f3, because ur troops will be just behind u always. The "follow me" command will become useless. And also, the time it takes for the dev's to implement it and work out the new bug's that will appear, will be such a great effort with no reward to the mode. It's simply a waste of precious time. Time they should use to actually fix the balance and the unit classes. Then you will fix the rambo problem indirectly! And we can finally have some real fun again!
 
I don't think that is how the great majority of players think about BL. Many are long time veterans of warband. Insanely loyal to this type of game. Many will leave the mode because of rambo, but many will also leave the mode because of a poor "fix", that we don't even know will fix anything. Better to even close the gdamn mode, then fix it the right way, even if that takes a long time, than trying to keep a medium size playerbase in a mediocre mode with a poor gameplay. And the second you buy the game, TW have got it's investment anyway. I am 100% sure players that will leave the mode while it is being fixed, will return when the news of a functionally and really fun mode breaks!
Kind of true. At this point we might as well close down captain mode and skirmish alltogether. Just get battle mode going and get siege running properly, the majority of players will be more than happy with that.
 
Hi @Spottswoode

In the list of my suggestions, I did not mention spears. Because of the reason you are pointing out, that the AI simply will kill the cav too effective then. Spears are fine as they are now I think. I was talking about Pikes, for 2h and X-bow classes only. They need some command or other mechanic to couch their pikes. You know how a full cav attack can force the AI to change to pikes? I don't want that to change. It's a risk you have to take as a pike man. And It also encourages cav to attack with full stack, because a single rambo cav can't accomplice that.

I did not say cav AI need a nerf. Cav AI should NOT be nerfed! But they need a fix in their behavior after the captain uses f1f3. Right now the cav AI does a really good job in a full charge with the f1f3 command! They make so much damage, as they should! But after the charge they scatter too much I think. And that needs to be addressed to encourage cav players to use full cav attacks!

Try to read the list I made, and tell me what u think. I bet you agree with me!

About the CL2 tournament. Yes, the skill level of the finalists cannot and should not be ignored. But, I was also cringing myself into a fetal position when I was watching it. There was 0 unit control. I even saw a circle formation around the flag.. I mean cumon.

A spectator mode for the judges and to make real cool recording is ofc a must. And I also think that will happen at some point.

I really really think that 1 rambo unit, or even 6 rambo units, connot do any harm when they "come for you". That the AI is so horrible easy to defeat player vs bot, or even more bots, is not a problem or exploit I think. Remember, you have 120 units in the entire team. If 6 enemy captains comes to kill your teams bot's, then you need to react on that. 6 captains can do very very little vs 120 bot's, no matter if they have 10k hours and are the best players in the world. There is many ways to counter that situation. Being passive around the flag, and wait on a moral win, is not one of them. With my suggestions those rambo units wont get very far either. Because the range units are so strong, that even a single inf behind a shield will die pretty fast.

About why I am so against any form of the restrictions that have been suggested. It is mainly because the overall "progress" in captain mode have been a grotesque waste of time since 1.5.0. For the dev's and us testers. Time that I feel is starting to run out also. To put a leash on the troops in any way, if it's 1 meter or 100 meters is not the point here. Because it might be a direct way of forcing the playstyle of players into something else than rambo, but what then?? The balance problems between the factions will not go away with leaches. Archers will still be broken. Skirmishes will still be broken. The amount of viable tactics will be reduced. The captains skill level in unit control does not matter anymore. You don't need to be aware of where your troops are in relation to the enemy, just use f1f3, because ur troops will be just behind u always. The "follow me" command will become useless. And also, the time it takes for the dev's to implement it and work out the new bug's that will appear, will be such a great effort with no reward to the mode. It's simply a waste of precious time. Time they should use to actually fix the balance and the unit classes. Then you will fix the rambo problem indirectly! And we can finally have some real fun again!
My bad mate, I was going of the vote options- buff spears & nerf cav... Hadn't read the initial post in a while and no sleep lately = lazy brain :smile:

To me the interesting tactics are actually all within our reach as of right now, they are hidden behind the use of the units we see as being broken, those units you mentioned definitely need work but I don't think they are as broken as people seem to say they are. They ARE definitely broken when trying to use them while Rambo exists, but I'm my opinion cut out Rambo and the game comes back to life. Archers, skirmishes and cav are the main units centered around actual strategy in this game... It's precisely that they are underpowered compared to an infantry ball and are much harder to use that means they come with a requirement for strategy to win against a competent enemy, so to be successful you require real teamwork and co op... Instead of mostly just good timing as infantry armies require.

I know a lot of people shudder at the thought of unit restrictions in competitive play, but without meaningful TW fixes to me you kind of have to add restrictions in order to get people to stop doing the bang your head against a wall infantry ball rush we see so often with or without Rambo. If in competitive play there are unit restrictions (and if we are talking about competitive play) then those restrictions level the playing field irrelevant of a specific unit type being broken (cause we all have them on our team and it's about who can use them best). Faction imbalance is definitely another conversation... But that exists with or without Rambo so it's mostly a side point at this stage I think

Of course all the above is opinion, I prefer the game when we are playing with "unusual unit choices" by today's standards, but I totally understand why people don't like being forced into a particular play style whether that be by tethering or unit restrictions in comp play. It's just my opinion and I'm probably alone on this that it makes it more fun and more interesting to have both those options when talking about this particular mode. I'm also a firm believer that cav is a support unit who should never be expected to do the heavy lifting when it comes to kill counts
 
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