Raiding caravans and village parties remains unsatisfying.

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Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
For those not aware, raiding villages only nets you what was on the market in terms of loot. There is no other loot table. Caravans are similar but much worse; the goods they carry seemingly poof for the most part. They just don't drop after the raid, even if you surrounded the baggage train and didn't scare off any camels. Simply and unaccountably gone.

On top of that, the direct financial rewards are lacking, even if you raid a caravan right after they dumped abload of trade goods. They should have plenty of cash on-hand and it should be going into the player's hot little hands, at least a percentage, but it just poofs as well.

I'll run through for pics and comparisons in a bit but I just want some illumination on this.
 

ispaniqbg

Recruit
Yea dude, wanted to play as a viking in Sturgia, looting villages and trading the resources to my faction to increase our wealth, sounds good enough right? Wrong. Apparently all the resources in a whole village can't pay my armies wages for a week.
It would be alright if there were different types of villages like monasteries which have expensive jewelry, but are harder to raid. That would give raiding a progression of sorts, first villages, then monastery when you have a stronger raiding party, who knows what next
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Almost forgot about this, but then chased a caravan down and got the medieval equivalent of someone's lunch money.

Village parties are the worst. They should have the goods they are bringing to market on the loot table, but don't appear to? Or maybe it is just work horses?
village-party-raid-loot.png


Caravans aren't as bad, but they are still bad, the actual gains of pillaging some merchant's caravan get sharply reduced.
caravan-raid-loot.png

Ignore the prices; it is just the excessively high trade penalty they applied to caravans to make trading with them not even remotely worth it.

Economically, the expanding the gains to a higher percentage of their stocks wouldn't out of line with other money-making methods and it would still come at a hefty cost. You are effectively at war with a faction, with peace costing a minimum of 17,000 to 22,000 denars. Possibly higher, depending on the circumstances. Your character takes a trait penalty with each raid. Caravans aren't necessarily easy to push over, so a very new character isn't likely to farm them to support their early game economy.

Can anyone think of downsides to making raiding more lucrative?
 

Dreed89

Sergeant at Arms
In screenhots, at least for caravan items, there is clearly a percentage applied. For example, olives to grapes ratio holds for both trade and loot tables.

For villager items, the horses must have disappeared. Maybe because they are regarded as equipment and thus not available for loot. Need to compare with more samples.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Yeah it's super disappointing. It's annoying too that the AI thinks raiding is financially good, when they would get way more just beating up some looters. I mean, maybe they have a cheat to make it give them more money, or either way it doesn't matter because they get everything cheated for them anyways.

In warband it was such a satisfying haul to raid a village! You could even do it solo without provoking a war if you forced supplies and then fought the farmer! :smile: All the bandits would come up and attacks you while you were raiding alone, it was fun.

Now its "you get 2 grain yay don't you feel good about your campaign choices".
 

black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
I think I stopped trying to raid caravans a long time ago when I realized the payout vs the cost in troops just wasn't worth it. I just can't understand why they just don't have better loot because they're not soft targets by any means.

Just another reason why playing a bandit type character isn't worth the time.
 

McDadden

Recruit
Couldn't agree more. I know at least they're fixing the missing xp for raiding caravans, so that's a start. There is so much missed potential for the raider playstyle. They payoff should be higher considering how niche you have to make your army to even be able to chase down a caravan let alone actually beat it.
I also think there should be a more consistent way to train up the militia in villages so they're a harder target.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
+1 Just because that merchandise magically vanishes in my eyes, it doesn't make sense.

giphy.gif

So much you have, so much I will take away.
 

Because

Sergeant
I think it's part of a larger issue as the loot you get from battle is in no ways reflecting the army you thought. I have defeated a couple of pure lake rat parties where every single enemy had a javelin and I didn't get a single one as loot. Because of how things are priced what the defeated have and what you get from them as loot are seemingly only barely linked, mainly due to the need to nerf the value of any and all loot, because the economy is a bit off balance due to the absurdly high value of a lot of the gear.
I also believe you don't get all of the loot to represent some of it escaping/it being shared out between you and your troops (hence in part the morale boost for victories). From recollection in Warband I believe your share of the loot was impacted by the size of your party and while I don't believe it is implemented in Bannerlord I'd assumed that was still the reason that your returns on an attack are so far removed from what the enemy actually have on them.
I think if the roguery tree should give you better perks so that you could get to say a 50% take of what is held by the caravan/villagers you attack, thus making the play style more functional, but only if you put the effort in to get those perks.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Before 1.5.4 there was nearly no herd penalty (max was something like -2%) so caravans were carrying more mules and also 2-3x items. At these versions raiding a caravan brings much more money also caravans were making 2x daily profit (600 (1.5.4 and before) vs 300 now).

After herd penalty is added we also added a code to caravans care how many animals they are carrying to save them from having herd penalty and because they carry less mules their inventory capacity is reduced. So they started to carry less items. There is 25% rule applied to caravan / villager loot. You get 25% of their items this rule remained from old days where caravans carry too much items.

As summary we can make this ratio 50% instead of 25% it seems. So you can get 2x more inventory loot compared now. In terms of equipment loot there will not be any change. Even you kill 100 men and even they have all javelins we cannot give these as loot because if we do loots become so OP then. By making one battle you can have loot equivelent of 10000s denars. I accept it is unrealistic and you see all these javelins at ground when battle ended but basics of game are not ok for doing this.

I will examine why you could not get any horses from villager battle. Maybe there is a special rule for horse loots.
 

Because

Sergeant
Before 1.5.4 there was nearly no herd penalty (max was something like -2%) so caravans were carrying more mules and also 2-3x items. At these versions raiding a caravan brings much more money also caravans were making 2x daily profit (600 (1.5.4 and before) vs 300 now).

After herd penalty is added we also added a code to caravans care how many animals they are carrying to save them from having herd penalty and because they carry less mules their inventory capacity is reduced. So they started to carry less items. There is 25% rule applied to caravan / villager loot. You get 25% of their items this rule remained from old days where caravans carry too much items.

As summary we can make this ratio 50% instead of 25% it seems. So you can get 2x more inventory loot compared now. In terms of equipment loot there will not be any change. Even you kill 100 men and even they have all javelins we cannot give these as loot because if we do loots become so OP then. By making one battle you can have loot equivelent of 10000s denars. I accept it is unrealistic and you see all these javelins at ground when battle ended but basics of game are not ok for doing this.

I will examine why you could not get any horses from villager battle. Maybe there is a special rule for horse loots.
Hi Mexxico thanks for the info, makes things much clearer regarding raiding loot and the 50% seems like a good solution.
I do understand why loot works the way it does, I just wish the price of items wasn't so high and that you had a higher grade of goods like the old Lordly modifier to represent end game goals, rather than stuff yours and enemy soldiers are fighting with that you can't get. I feel this would free things up a lot as you could realistically get badly damaged versions of currently nigh on unobtainable gear without destroying the economy or game balance while still having a gold tier set of items that cost as much as a castle as an end game goal, but that is an issue for another thread, so I'll quit griping on this one.
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
There is a different explanation: who raids poor villagers or peaceful caravans must be a nasty person. Companions and followers of such persons are also nasty persons. Those villains simply put all the loot they found into their own pockets and give only a bit to the boss. So it's a kind of higher justice that the nasty player cannot live at costs of innocent people. :fruity:
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
As for caravans, the only way you get their wares they carry is if the surrender to you, I have this in the tech forums and they are looking into it,. Here is what I do, attack them, and let 1 or 2 escape, then attack again and hopefully they will surrender and only then you get all the loot. It is sad that roguery and raiding has been bugged for months and we are still waiting for it to be sorted out. so give it a try and see what loot is when they surrender, that makes some money.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
As summary we can make this ratio 50% instead of 25% it seems. So you can get 2x more inventory loot compared now. In terms of equipment loot there will not be any change. Even you kill 100 men and even they have all javelins we cannot give these as loot because if we do loots become so OP then. By making one battle you can have loot equivelent of 10000s denars. I accept it is unrealistic and you see all these javelins at ground when battle ended but basics of game are not ok for doing this.
Thanks for the response and doubling the loot haul from villages and caravans sounds like a good fix. It would be nice if villages dropped goods not on the market though. That happened in Warband, with villages dropping small amounts of luxuries like velvet.

I'm not concerned about the equipment loot though, sorry that wasn't more clear.
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
Yes I understood just wanted to clearify it because other responses mentioned it also.
are you responsible for the caravan fixings? they aren't giving their wares when defeated. You only get their wares if you get them to surrender.
 

McDadden

Recruit
I can't wait for the roguery fixes because I love the raider life. Here's to hoping they fix the loot tables for it.
@Flesson19: I've never tried forcing them to surrender. I'll have to give that a go in the meantime. BTW, I enjoy your videos, keep it up
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
I can't wait for the roguery fixes because I love the raider life. Here's to hoping they fix the loot tables for it.
@Flesson19: I've never tried forcing them to surrender. I'll have to give that a go in the meantime. BTW, I enjoy your videos, keep it up
thanxs, when you get them to surrender and see all the wares you get you will see the huge difference and I do show it in my Rogue play through, I think the one I posted today shows what you get when they surrender,
Check out 27 minute mark exactly and see what you get when you win then immediately after that I get them to surrender and they give a bunch of what they were carrying
@mexxico Do you know who is responsible for caravan loot not dropping?
 
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