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Racism in Multiplayer

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Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
What utility is there is that, though? This is the sort of thing I argue against most of all. If there is a problem, in this case the broader problem is people being offended by chat content, then the most straightforward and least resource intensive way to resolve this problem is to create a chat filter that is on by default and toggleable, and an easily accessible personal mute function that actually works. This maximizes the ability of players to see, and not to see, what they do and don't want to see. Why is central moderation of a chat needed, if what I have just outlined works properly?
Because chat filters can be quiet terrible. We are in 2020 are there are countless of games who can't even create proper censors.
Do i have to tell you the countless of ways i can spell any slur? Its pretty insane really. You can use letters, numbers, ... it goes far.
I would be fine with a filter for people who want it and have it enabled by default, if the darn thing worked at least.
I'm actually referring to Taleworlds (or the review panel, or potentially even the guy who submits the report) as the "third party" here, not a software. The guy who said BadWord and the person (or people) he was speaking to are the first parties. Anyone else is external to the situation.
EDIT: And to clarify, I'm okay with whatever moderation style or tool a community server wants to implement. A community has the right to self-moderation. Here, I'm arguing for what Taleworld's style of moderation for its own official servers should be, guided by their current content policy.


This brings me back to humor. Like it or not, there are plenty of people who enjoy jokes that you or I might find unsavory. If you get into a game as the sixth guy to a stack of five friends, and they have an off-color sense of humor, you're going to get offended. I don't think there's any reason they shouldn't be able to use the most immediate tool available to them (the in-game team chat) to joke around.
There is, of course, a difference between targeted abuse and in-group humor - but you cannot make that distinction based solely on the content of what is said. Nor do I believe humor should be subject to moderation, regardless of its content - only its intent.

If you want to do some edgy jokes do it between yourselves, not everyone has to hear it. You have to watch what you're saying, not the other way around.

It isn't hard to keep those jokes to yourself or on another platform. You don't HAVE to write these things in chat where you know you might get someone to report you or offend someone. You have to change according to the rules, not the other way around.
 

Mars_Mullo

Regular
am 32, can confirm that if you say that **** in RL to random people in the street or while playing a sport etc you will probably be knocked the **** out, say it at work and fired? just because you can hide behind a screen free from consequences doesn't mean everyone else needs to toughen up because you feel like being a toxic racist lol


we could always use a behaviour score system as well as mods :p get warned or kicked too many times and you get put into the low priority queue with other toxic asshats
Well said. I think that is a great idea.
Funny how this is a first world problem.
We should be better than this.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
Because chat filters can be quiet terrible. We are in 2020 are there are countless of games who can't even create proper censors.
Do i have to tell you the countless of ways i can spell any slur? Its pretty insane really. You can use letters, numbers, ... it goes far.
I would be fine with a filter for people who want it and have it enabled by default, if the darn thing worked at least.
So the compromise then, as I see it, is to allow otherwise restricted chat content inside the chat filter, and if someone intentionally tries to circumvent the chat filter by changing the letters to symbols, or putting spaces between letters, etc., then it's fair to punish them.

My preferred way around it is to mix an admin mute function with a chat filter, like I've posted earlier in the thread. If someone is saying bad things in the chat and gets reported enough, then they get placed by the administrator into a punishment pool where all of their messages are only viewable by people who have the chat filter turned off. This system resolves the issues you've highlighted. It might seem like a bit of a waste of development time, but in the long run the amount of time spent reviewing reports will end up far more time and money consuming, not to mention banning more people who haven't done anything wrong due to cultural problems and misunderstandings.
 

coc

Recruit
If you want to do some edgy jokes do it between yourselves, not everyone has to hear it. You have to watch what you're saying, not the other way around.

It isn't hard to keep those jokes to yourself or on another platform. You don't HAVE to write these things in chat where you know you might get someone to report you or offend someone. You have to change according to the rules, not the other way around.
TaleWorlds
Has
Not
Banned
Words

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this to you.

I am not advocating any rules change. That's you, and people in your camp, who seemingly want to make words a bannable offense, rather than intent.
What this thread is, on my initial reading, is an discussion on the method of moderation which should be employed.
What should be moderated is not a question. How it should be moderated, is. I advocate for a problem to be solved at the lowest possible level: in this case, the players in the game where the problem occurs.

For some people (not necessarily you, this is a broader criticism), this seems to keep swinging around to banning people for -isms, with no backstop in place for determining whether something was an -ism to begin with. Some posters being so fervent about this that they go so far as to say that your a racist/sexist/etc if you're not actively condemning the behavior with every breath. It's insane, and I've seen more online social groups destroyed by an overzealous attempt to root out "toxicity" than I've ever seen fall apart from people being rude.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
TaleWorlds
Has
Not
Banned
Words

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this to you.

I am not advocating any rules change. That's you, and people in your camp, who seemingly want to make words a bannable offense, rather than intent.
What this thread is, on my initial reading, is an discussion on the method of moderation which should be employed.
What should be moderated is not a question. How it should be moderated, is. I advocate for a problem to be solved at the lowest possible level: in this case, the players in the game where the problem occurs.

For some people (not necessarily you, this is a broader criticism), this seems to keep swinging around to banning people for -isms, with no backstop in place for determining whether something was an -ism to begin with. Some posters being so fervent about this that they go so far as to say that your a racist/sexist/etc if you're not actively condemning the behavior with every breath. It's insane, and I've seen more online social groups destroyed by an overzealous attempt to root out "toxicity" than I've ever seen fall apart from people being rude.
Prohibiting racial slurs = banning words.

They have banned people during the beta before for those same racial slurs. Its something they are prohibiting.

So the compromise then, as I see it, is to allow otherwise restricted chat content inside the chat filter, and if someone intentionally tries to circumvent the chat filter by changing the letters to symbols, or putting spaces between letters, etc., then it's fair to punish them.

My preferred way around it is to mix an admin mute function with a chat filter, like I've posted earlier in the thread. If someone is saying bad things in the chat and gets reported enough, then they get placed by the administrator into a punishment pool where all of their messages are only viewable by people who have the chat filter turned off. This system resolves the issues you've highlighted. It might seem like a bit of a waste of development time, but in the long run the amount of time spent reviewing reports will end up far more time and money consuming, not to mention banning more people who haven't done anything wrong due to cultural problems and misunderstandings.

Yeah that looks like a good compromise.
 
oh my n word. Are u from murrica that youre oversensitized to non-issues and desensitized to real ones ?

Liberals and nazis all belong to one cup of hatred with the old snake destroying both. That old snake, being none other than devil himself.

Hatred is what seems to drive the US of A in its warmongering, it is also greed, to steal ffrom others. For all that Wrath of God is set.

Children of the enemy complain about hatred ? Shut it down with hatred of their own ? Oh my. How do you destroy hatred when you want to repay and not forgive the other ? Or are you so blind that you cant see your own faults due to your own hypocrisy ? When you want to be insulted, you provoke, by insults of your own. The problem with you folks is internal. You shouldnt even need to game in the first place. And if you want to change the world for the better, then swallow your pride. Otherwise it will destroy you. First in the spirit, then physically. Pride and stupidity come hand in hand.

Not only that, you want to take others freedom away, by imposing thought or expression control. You make it look like you were honest good people who never did wrong. Typical of hypocrites. The hatred that you spill and that you somehow classify it differently is also insincere.

Do tell, what insults you : children murdered before being even born, classified as waste, while you, full of ego in your warped wicked heads and hearts overlook all this, say that its fine, its the new norm, while cry about the non-essential n-word ? How dumb can people get ? Stupidity knows no bounds. Stupidity is abundant where people have left God for their own desires, lusts for power and others. You obviously cant help yourself people, because your priorities are upside down. Only Truth will set you free to prevent your eternalyl continuous destruction. Noone else.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
oh my n word. Are u from murrica that youre oversensitized to non-issues and desensitized to real ones ?

Liberals and nazis all belong to one cup of hatred with the old snake destroying both. That old snake, being none other than devil himself.

Hatred is what seems to drive the US of A in its warmongering, it is also greed, to steal ffrom others. For all that Wrath of God is set.

Children of the enemy complain about hatred ? Shut it down with hatred of their own ? Oh my. How do you destroy hatred when you want to repay and not forgive the other ? Or are you so blind that you cant see your own faults due to your own hypocrisy ? When you want to be insulted, you provoke, by insults of your own. The problem with you folks is internal. You shouldnt even need to game in the first place. And if you want to change the world for the better, then swallow your pride. Otherwise it will destroy you. First in the spirit, then physically. Pride and stupidity come hand in hand.

Not only that, you want to take others freedom away, by imposing thought or expression control. You make it look like you were honest good people who never did wrong. Typical of hypocrites. The hatred that you spill and that you somehow classify it differently is also insincere.

Do tell, what insults you : children murdered before being even born, classified as waste, while you, full of ego in your warped wicked heads and hearts overlook all this, say that its fine, its the new norm, while cry about the non-essential n-word ? How dumb can people get ? Stupidity knows no bounds. Stupidity is abundant where people have left God for their own desires, lusts for power and others. You obviously cant help yourself people, because your priorities are upside down. Only Truth will set you free to prevent your eternalyl continuous destruction. Noone else.


No one is being political here. You are the one who brought it up for no reason.
 

coc

Recruit
Prohibiting racial slurs = banning words.

They have banned people during the beta before for those same racial slurs. Its something they are prohibiting.
They notionally banned people for using those words in a context where they were attacking someone.
The intent was banned. And, in the majority of use cases, that will be accurate for an online game. But not all of them.

You are conflating the two. Read the ToS.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
They notionally banned people for using those words in a context where they were attacking someone.
The intent was banned. And, in the majority of use cases, that will be accurate for an online game. But not all of them.

You are conflating the two. Read the ToS.
Can you give me an example of where using a racial slur does not have a bad intend?
 

Jack Avenger

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
oh my n word. Are u from murrica that youre oversensitized to non-issues and desensitized to real ones ?

Liberals and nazis all belong to one cup of hatred with the old snake destroying both. That old snake, being none other than devil himself.

Hatred is what seems to drive the US of A in its warmongering, it is also greed, to steal ffrom others. For all that Wrath of God is set.

Children of the enemy complain about hatred ? Shut it down with hatred of their own ? Oh my. How do you destroy hatred when you want to repay and not forgive the other ? Or are you so blind that you cant see your own faults due to your own hypocrisy ? When you want to be insulted, you provoke, by insults of your own. The problem with you folks is internal. You shouldnt even need to game in the first place. And if you want to change the world for the better, then swallow your pride. Otherwise it will destroy you. First in the spirit, then physically. Pride and stupidity come hand in hand.

Not only that, you want to take others freedom away, by imposing thought or expression control. You make it look like you were honest good people who never did wrong. Typical of hypocrites. The hatred that you spill and that you somehow classify it differently is also insincere.

Do tell, what insults you : children murdered before being even born, classified as waste, while you, full of ego in your warped wicked heads and hearts overlook all this, say that its fine, its the new norm, while cry about the non-essential n-word ? How dumb can people get ? Stupidity knows no bounds. Stupidity is abundant where people have left God for their own desires, lusts for power and others. You obviously cant help yourself people, because your priorities are upside down. Only Truth will set you free to prevent your eternalyl continuous destruction. Noone else.

Unfortunately, we live in a world with a very large amount of hypocrite snowflakes.
 

coc

Recruit
That's not a slur. I think you have the definition of a slur confused.
If a black person renders his speech with the correct spelling, even though he pronounces it "-a", does it become a slur and he should be banned?
If a white person renders his insult with the slang spelling, rather than a "hard R", does it cease to be a slur?
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
If a black person renders his speech with the correct spelling, even though he pronounces it "-a", does it become a slur and he should be banned?
If a white person renders his insult with the slang spelling, rather than a "hard R", does it cease to be a slur?
Racial slurs shouldn't be used by anyone, regardless of ethnicity. You can ban anyone who uses it.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
You've evaded the question.
Is N*-a a slur when used in certain contexts, or is it universally acceptable as a word?
It's always a slur. No matter what context. If the rules state no racial slurs, its included
 

coc

Recruit
It's always a slur. No matter what context. If the rules state no racial slurs, its included
The rules, as far as I am aware, do not state "no racial slurs". Reference them yourself: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?help/terms/

That aside, I have answered your question posed here:
Can you give me an example of where using a racial slur does not have a bad intend?
And return to my original assertion that what is bannable is the intent, not the words, as outlined in the ToS linked above.
You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws. You are entirely responsible for the content of, and any harm resulting from, that Content or your conduct.
 

Nimai

Recruit
Lmao Warband´s MP was dominated by funny racist comments, this is how it is, and cannot be changed, it´s the nature of Mount and Blade
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
The rules, as far as I am aware, do not state "no racial slurs". Reference them yourself: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?help/terms/

That aside, I have answered your question posed here:

And return to my original assertion that what is bannable is the intent, not the words, as outlined in the ToS linked above.

Those have to do with the forums, not in the game. Taleworlds has yet to introduce the ruleset for their servers. But have already hinted what you can do and not do. And like i said, african american is not a racial slur

Lmao Warband´s MP was dominated by funny racist comments, this is how it is, and cannot be changed, it´s the nature of Mount and Blade
Doesn't mean u shouldn't try to prevent such behavior.
 

coc

Recruit
Those have to do with the forums, not in the game. Taleworlds has yet to introduce the ruleset for their servers. But have already hinted what you can do and not do. And like i said, african american is not a racial slur
Are you being deliberately disingenuous or are you actually unaware that when I referenced "African American vernacular" I am referring to the propensity to use "nigga" and "negro" copiously in casual conversation?
 
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