Quick Feedback on Campaign Quest (to fall onto deaf ears)

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xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
WBWF&S
From my understanding, the entire questline mechanics improved up until the first 2/3 objective is reached. After that it's a hell broken loose with a insane FFA Zerg Rush where whomever zergs faster wins. The problem with that is that the time-limit for the minor quests before the 2/3 objective's reached can utterly destroy your efforts to recruit more clans and build up viable companion vassals. So the quest will basically force you into permanent war before you even get a chance of properly stabilizing your realm.

From the birth & death, the campaign's excrutiantingly bad in that regard because apparently we need to have our family members in party with spouses + sit in towns doing absolutely **** to get a ever lowering chance on them having kids. For the PC that's somewhat okay, but for the others this requirement is a deadbeat hinderance that will eventually culminate into family members having no kids. The feature's also virtually useless unless you hope to curb the number of enemies overtime through RNG battle deaths, other than that the Campaign's "rushed" nautre quest doesn't allow for a long enough time-frame for your kin to grow. Your own kids / brothers' kids won't even reach adulthood until you are far into the final stages of the quest even if you rush marriages, making the mechanics revolving around the kids quite useless (except for brother and sister)

It's also hard to deal with vassal bordergore considering that the most fiefs any vassal should hold at any given time for optimal management from the AI + optimal stability's a town with neighboring 2 castles at most for each (and that if their Clan Tier's at least 5, otherwise they won't have enough parties to even patrol their lands, nor enough Clan members for governors). If you don't force yourself into ownership of everything you're going to be shoehorned with bordergore arbitrary votes that will ultimately destroy the new owner clan's efficiency for both campaigning and managing fiefs. Which leads to:

Need of Trading 300 perk so you can re-shuffle lands properly if there aren't enough vassals in the realm - but that also means you'll often be forced 10~ million denars if the settlement they've "stolen" is prosperous. The issue with that is if you don't grind 50+m prior to starting the conquest quest phase, you won't have enough to deal with that, and there are only 2 ways of doing so, one of which involve exploits because nothing in the game's truly profitable unless you game the game, except for Smithing, which translates into countless wasted focus pts on both PC and Companions to make it viable to grind for parts (+ more years and years of grind on top of trading - can be done simultaneously to less effect on both, and IF, and only IF, you're lucky with smithing orders + if you're using debug mode/cheat mode to prevent game breaking bugs, you'll clutter both your save-file and your inventory screen with countless identical crafted items, making the save file gigantic overtime and opening the possibility of it getting corrupted the more you craft).

So far, Birth & Death seems non-viable for Campaign story meta, Trade 300 is a must which means you're already locked-out of 5 focus pts and into a massive grind for many in-game years. Both of those on top of reaching clan Tier 4 and capturing a fief + dealing with the unnatural quest's time limits.

Okay, past that point, you'll probably need companions nominated as vassals, but that brings another level of nonsense into the equation: Often, too often, vassal companions will switch gear to nonsense cultural trash in the most retarded ways possible, IE: Horse Archer built Khuzait will ditch the bow to grab a 1 handed sword - Sturgian foot archer build will grab a horse even though the idiot doesn't have the perk for any bows on horseback while keeping his Longbow. That means the game basically generates useless army units for fielded battles, and destroys these companions previous usefulness as captains and as effective troops for getting kills. That should be fixed by allowing players to fiddle with companions loadouts without allowing the players to take the gear from them, or by simply removing "gear downgrade upgrade" on nomination. Totally do-able, unlikely to happen.

Still on vassal companions: You'll be dependant on pure RNG to even roll companions that can be built into decent vassal roles (their skill levels, attribute pts and focus pts auto-distributions are utter garbage compared to any noble in-game, that means most companions can't make for even a viable vassal because they lack average skills to lead parties and/or govern settlements). We can still shoehorn them into such "roles" by naming them, but they'll be utter crap at everything a noble's supposed to do.

Now, onto the later phases of the Campaign quest, the game becomes a clusterfk of bat**** nonsense, AI vassals, even if you outnumber the opposing realms, will fail at even reaching targets with armies before they dismantle. Their decision making will go crazy and they won't be able to siege nor defend sieges because they don't calculate distance + travel time at all, they just try to reach sieges that'll take them 10 days to reach. They'll also often try to siege with too small armies and be destroyed by defending armies with ease. That means the player has to manually do everything, and lack of control over what vassals do means you'll be soloing the entire thing most of the time unless you get lucky at AI decision rolls (which have a diminishing chance to happen the more wars are active at the same time)

Finally, "Kingdom Tactics" and nothing are virtually the same, they seem to only work to encourage AI to raid if on offensive, other than that Defensive & Balanced both do nothing (armies will still rush to take settlements, ignore raids, ignore sieges, etc). Since we can't suggest actions in any way to AI parties, that means you'll be just as overwhelmed as if you were running a kingdom solo. Again, the main reson for all of this BS is the lock on 3 wars at the same time ad minimum (because if you were at war with a kingdom not involved with the conspiracy, you will get locked into that war too)

So, as I've "suggested" 500 million times before, this game can't be any good if the features don't synergize with each-other. Players need more control, AI has too much autonomy and too little quality to be even acceptable to be the way it is currently.
More control = change vassal gear loadout; have ways of recruiting companions that didn't spawn or have static companion hoster; suggest AI actions directly, not through some arbitrary button in Kingdom UI that doesn't work; nominate who gets to compete for a fief's voting process; remove "in-party" requirement for pregnancy; have more ways of making significant amounts of gold in-game with all money-making mechanics being viable for it; extent Campaign Quest time-frame so it makes more sense and feels less as a constant rush; expand main quest's time limits to make those at bare minimum viable to complete without cheating or getting lucky; give player control over who gets bethroad or not on marriage proposals (Clans will always force old infertile women who are single over the young ones, that should be selectable).

Well, from this theme, I think that's about it. Thanks for not listening TW, peace!
 
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Madeloc

Regular
From my understanding, the entire questline mechanics improved up until the first 2/3 objective is reached. After that it's a hell broken loose with a insane FFA Zerg Rush where whomever zergs faster wins. The problem with that is that the time-limit for the minor quests before the 2/3 objective's reached can utterly destroy your efforts to recruit more clans and build up viable companion vassals. So the quest will basically force you into permanent war before you even get a chance of properly stabilizing your realm.

From the birth & death, the campaign's excrutiantingly bad in that regard because apparently we need to have our family members in party with spouses + sit in towns doing absolutely **** to get a ever lowering chance on them having kids. For the PC that's somewhat okay, but for the others this requirement is a deadbeat hinderance that will eventually culminate into family members having no kids. The feature's also virtually useless unless you hope to curb the number of enemies overtime through RNG battle deaths, other than that the Campaign's "rushed" nautre quest doesn't allow for a long enough time-frame for your kin to grow. Your own kids / brothers' kids won't even reach adulthood until you are far into the final stages of the quest even if you rush marriages, making the mechanics revolving around the kids quite useless (except for brother and sister)

It's also hard to deal with vassal bordergore considering that the most fiefs any vassal should hold at any given time for optimal management from the AI + optimal stability's a town with neighboring 2 castles at most for each (and that if their Clan Tier's at least 5, otherwise they won't have enough parties to even patrol their lands, nor enough Clan members for governors). If you don't force yourself into ownership of everything you're going to be shoehorned with bordergore arbitrary votes that will ultimately destroy the new owner clan's efficiency for both campaigning and managing fiefs. Which leads to:

Need of Trading 300 perk so you can re-shuffle lands properly if there aren't enough vassals in the realm - but that also means you'll often be forced 10~ million denars if the settlement they've "stolen" is prosperous. The issue with that is if you don't grind 50+m prior to starting the conquest quest phase, you won't have enough to deal with that, and there are only 2 ways of doing so, one of which involve exploits because nothing in the game's truly profitable unless you game the game, except for Smithing, which translates into countless wasted focus pts on both PC and Companions to make it viable to grind for parts (+ more years and years of grind on top of trading - can be done simultaneously to less effect on both, and IF, and only IF, you're lucky with smithing orders + if you're using debug mode/cheat mode to prevent game breaking bugs, you'll clutter both your save-file and your inventory screen with countless identical crafted items, making the save file gigantic overtime and opening the possibility of it getting corrupted the more you craft).

So far, Birth & Death seems non-viable for Campaign story meta, Trade 300 is a must which means you're already locked-out of 5 focus pts and into a massive grind for many in-game years. Both of those on top of reaching clan Tier 4 and capturing a fief + dealing with the unnatural quest's time limits.

Okay, past that point, you'll probably need companions nominated as vassals, but that brings another level of nonsense into the equation: Often, too often, vassal companions will switch gear to nonsense cultural trash in the most retarded ways possible, IE: Horse Archer built Khuzait will ditch the bow to grab a 1 handed sword - Sturgian foot archer build will grab a horse even though the idiot doesn't have the perk for any bows on horseback while keeping his Longbow. That means the game basically generates useless army units for fielded battles, and destroys these companions previous usefulness as captains and as effective troops for getting kills. That should be fixed by allowing players to fiddle with companions loadouts without allowing the players to take the gear from them, or by simply removing "gear downgrade upgrade" on nomination. Totally do-able, unlikely to happen.

Still on vassal companions: You'll be dependant on pure RNG to even roll companions that can be built into decent vassal roles (their skill levels, attribute pts and focus pts auto-distributions are utter garbage compared to any noble in-game, that means most companions can't make for even a viable vassal because they lack average skills to lead parties and/or govern settlements). We can still shoehorn them into such "roles" by naming them, but they'll be utter crap at everything a noble's supposed to do.

Now, onto the later phases of the Campaign quest, the game becomes a clusterfk of bat**** nonsense, AI vassals, even if you outnumber the opposing realms, will fail at even reaching targets with armies before they dismantle. Their decision making will go crazy and they won't be able to siege nor defend sieges because they don't calculate distance + travel time at all, they just try to reach sieges that'll take them 10 days to reach. They'll also often try to siege with too small armies and be destroyed by defending armies with ease. That means the player has to manually do everything, and lack of control over what vassals do means you'll be soloing the entire thing most of the time unless you get lucky at AI decision rolls (which have a diminishing chance to happen the more wars are active at the same time)

Finally, "Kingdom Tactics" and nothing are virtually the same, they seem to only work to encourage AI to raid if on offensive, other than that Defensive & Balanced both do nothing (armies will still rush to take settlements, ignore raids, ignore sieges, etc). Since we can't suggest actions in any way to AI parties, that means you'll be just as overwhelmed as if you were running a kingdom solo. Again, the main reson for all of this BS is the lock on 3 wars at the same time ad minimum (because if you were at war with a kingdom not involved with the conspiracy, you will get locked into that war too)

So, as I've "suggested" 500 million times before, this game can't be any good if the features don't synergize with each-other. Players need more control, AI has too much autonomy and too little quality to be even acceptable to be the way it is currently.
More control = change vassal gear loadout; have ways of recruiting companions that didn't spawn or have static companion hoster; suggest AI actions directly, not through some arbitrary button in Kingdom UI that doesn't work; nominate who gets to compete for a fief's voting process; remove "in-party" requirement for pregnancy; have more ways of making significant amounts of gold in-game with all money-making mechanics being viable for it; extent Campaign Quest time-frame so it makes more sense and feels less as a constant rush; expand main quest's time limits to make those at bare minimum viable to complete without cheating or getting lucky; give player control over who gets bethroad or not on marriage proposals (Clans will always force old infertile women who are single over the young ones, that should be selectable).

Well, from this theme, I think that's about it. Thanks for not listening TW, peace!
You understood the whole thing. I managed to read till the end, lol.
That game is based on good ideas but realization is tinkering, not more. Deceiving. Stupid. No common sense.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Yeah my first recommendation is always DON'T do the dragon banner quest. By all means play campaign so you get your Clan members, but never make a kingdom via the quest it adds nothing but annoyance with no pay off. I've pretty much had it with the game's mechanics too and start to use mods to override them: Oh what's this I can't obtain X fief to GIVE it to a new clan that matches it's culture when one spawns with my 500 influence because I have 1 town? And I can't get rid of that 1 town because no wanders have spawned for me to use to make a clan for it? Okay then "no elections mod" there mechanic removes game greatly improved. Okay how about "recruit anyone" mod I'll literally hire the tavern wench to make into a vassal clan because I can't find any matching wanderers. I've also considered stopping using death and birth as only 1 lord died in battle so far at about 7/8 of the map taken and my kid who I had in the first year of the game is only 5 and were almost done with the map.
 

Brano

Sergeant at Arms
I tried to play "Campaign" playthru once and only nice thing I remember was Istiana voicing. The rest is the worst main quest ever experienced. And I used to play lot of rpgs in my young times.
They should hire Daniel Vavra to write them interesting and funny main story 😎
 

BigFat

Sergeant
I would have rather had the main quest be just about establishing your clan to a point of being considered noble and then have the rest be sandbox.
 

Taveren

Regular
WBWF&S
Timing is everything - I suggest building your faction 'in secret' (i.e. ignore the stupid quest) until you are dominating the map.
Then, if you must, go and speak to either of the to 'conspiracy theorists' and let the good times roll.
But only when you have eliminated some factions (e.g. one side of the map, or top/bottom) so you can only be attacked from a few places
 

xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
WBWF&S
Timing is everything - I suggest building your faction 'in secret' (i.e. ignore the stupid quest) until you are dominating the map.
Then, if you must, go and speak to either of the to 'conspiracy theorists' and let the good times roll.
But only when you have eliminated some factions (e.g. one side of the map, or top/bottom) so you can only be attacked from a few places
I won, and all I got for it was this:

now I'm bored to death with the save, and annoyed because I had all those trash lords from the other imperial factions join up forcing me to give them stuff which they don't deserve, wish I could sentence all of them to death... That'd make a cool mod

On continuing with the OP:

Game lacks continuity. After you conquer 3/4ths of the map, there's absolutely nothing else to do. You can finish painting it, trivial to a point where you can just spam auto-calc until you're done, and sit in a town waiting for RNG to decide to get you more kids.
Rebellions are laughable, even Diplomacy's mod factions are basically useless... It's also nearly impossible to optimize income without fiddling with borderline-exploit levels of gamey details. You'll always end up with a maximum of 10k per town, crap for castles, leaving you to either try to spam companions into caravans and/or opening workshops using Strat Gaming's data to get 1k per workshop (unreliable, takes ages and a massively hefty investment to trick the AI into staying with crap workshops for monopoly). Considering after some pt in the game we're in need of millions stacked, you can't even shuffle strategy to make money after you establish a kingdom, the kingdom will actually cost you more money than you can make through any other means (which's why so many ppl use the smithing, in the end it's the last single way to make enough buck to paint the map, otherwise you'll suffer from a severe lack of vassals).

All of that leads me to a single conclusion, the most time-efficient form of conquest is simply killing everyone. Period. Game will try to tell you're so evil and a "bad bad boy", but the game forces you into either that or dealing with AI bull****, slow grinds and awful rewards for your efforts (you don't even get to interact with your vassals, not even with feasts) - in the end, being Lord of All or Lord of None feel the same, game feels like an empty ghost-town no matter how you play it.

My next playthrough's going to be a genocidal psychopath with absolutely no leadership skills, and I'm going to murder everyone.
 
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xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
WBWF&S
You should have a look at Land of Sika. It looks like a great total overhaul in the vein of 'Prophesy of Pendor" with completely new map, reworked factions, etc. And adds elements like building your own settlement and then upgrading it, etc. And it has a compelling questline from what I have read.
Review here https://www.moddb.com/mods/the-land-of-sika/videos/the-land-of-sika-version-143-introduction
looks interesting! gonna check it "soon™", only thing I personally don't like is mixing asians with europeans for medieval settings, but I'll have to swallow it because the design looks quite compelling
 
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