[QUESTIONS] Quick Questions//Quick Answers (Redux)

[Nikomakkos]

Hello all, once again I am back playing PoP.

I just wanted to know if I recall correctly that cunning lords were changed to be alright as vassals, i.e. not complaining if they have at least x number of fiefs. Is that so? How do people feel about cunning lords?

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing. Is sending companions with high Persuasion skill on diplomatic missions to other kings (and lords?) a thing or was that only in the Diplomacy mod?

 

[Gorvex]

Can you raid the Noldor Castle indefinitely? They just re-garrison it with the same 1000 units + 100 Jatu prisoners. The Noldor seem to be very forgiving (or forgetful) about our raids of  Elacrai.

You can, but I don't think any sane person would torture him-/herself that way, knowing the amount of effort and casualties required for the non-existant loot. As such there is no need to cover the situation with scripts imo. The most I've ever done or saw others doing was a single raid of Elecrai at the very end of the playthrough. Either for fun or to test one's endgame party strength. But never to do it again... Besides, you can insult the Noldor from +100 relations back to -100 through speaking to Sadren, just so that you can hunt their parties and unique spawns again (then befriend them again ofc). And that was done completely intentionally, the respective conversation options exist only for this opportunity. I don't see it any different in terms of the forgetfulness and forgiveness you mentioned.

Hello all, once again I am back playing PoP.

I just wanted to know if I recall correctly that cunning lords were changed to be alright as vassals, i.e. not complaining if they have at least x number of fiefs. Is that so? How do people feel about cunning lords?

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing. Is sending companions with high Persuasion skill on diplomatic missions to other kings (and lords?) a thing or was that only in the Diplomacy mod?

Yes, it's a thing, they need 3 fiefs to keep their mouths shut. After that, they become quite manageable vassals, so you won't need to hold dozens of feasts to keep them happy.

Persuasion increases the chance of success of these kind of emissaries, but not by a large margin. The chance for rejection will still be considerably higher in comparison. Otherwise Persuasion would be OP anyways imo.

 

[TheAnyKey]

Can you raid the Noldor Castle indefinitely? They just re-garrison it with the same 1000 units + 100 Jatu prisoners. The Noldor seem to be very forgiving (or forgetful) about our raids of  Elacrai.

You can, but I don't think any sane person would torture him-/herself that way, knowing the amount of effort and casualties required for the non-existant loot. As such there is no need to cover the situation with scripts imo. The most I've ever done or saw others doing was a single raid of Elecrai at the very end of the playthrough. Either for fun or to test one's endgame party strength. But never to do it again... Besides, you can insult the Noldor from +100 relations back to -100 through speaking to Sadren, just so that you can hunt their parties and unique spawns again (then befriend them again ofc). And that was done completely intentionally, the respective conversation options exist only for this opportunity. I don't see it any different in terms of the forgetfulness and forgiveness you mentioned.

Yes, I've raided it a few times. It's a big fight that is certainly not worth the loot. I wish there was more of an incentive and reward for that "torturous" effort. Even though at that point you probably don't have much use for additional equipment anymore. It's nice to get some approving feedback from a game in recognition of a hard won victory.

 

[Evelyn]

It's not designed to be a rewarding experience.

 

[TheAnyKey]

It's not designed to be a rewarding experience.

Yes, that is apparent from the lack of reward.

 

[Gorvex]

It's not designed to be a rewarding experience.

Yes, that is apparent from the lack of reward.

For long, you couldn't even assault Elacrai, as the main victory condition is to befriend the Noldor since the beginning. At some point (from v3.611 iirc), you could, which was meant to be a developers' joke anyways. Just consider it that way and you won't be frustrated.

 

[Nikomakkos]

So I spent a long time just now trying to find a conclusive answer to the question whether the Tactics skill affects autocalc battles (and thus being important for AI lords when fighting parties other than the player's). Is there a conclusive answer to this?

I wish there was a comprehensive page on the wiki about how different skills affect lords/vassals.

 

[Gorvex]

So I spent a long time just now trying to find a conclusive answer to the question whether the Tactics skill affects autocalc battles (and thus being important for AI lords when fighting parties other than the player's). Is there a conclusive answer to this?

I wish there was a comprehensive page on the wiki about how different skills affect lords/vassals.

Tactics skill modifies the ratio of troops participating in a battle round between the two sides. In autocalc battles, there are no battle rounds, as everyone fights everyone at the same time until one side either retreats or gets destroyed. Therefore Tactics skill is just as useless in autocalc values as if you would play on a battlesize that allows all units from both sides to appear at once. And if you've been wondering, the Tactics skill of troops (due to skill templates) and lords doesn't effect their own autocalc values either.

 

[Nikomakkos]

So I spent a long time just now trying to find a conclusive answer to the question whether the Tactics skill affects autocalc battles (and thus being important for AI lords when fighting parties other than the player's). Is there a conclusive answer to this?

I wish there was a comprehensive page on the wiki about how different skills affect lords/vassals.

Tactics skill modifies the ratio of troops participating in a battle round between the two sides. In autocalc battles, there are no battle rounds, as everyone fights everyone at the same time until one side either retreats or gets destroyed. Therefore Tactics skill is just as useless in autocalc values as if you would play on a battlesize that allows all units from both sides to appear at once. And if you've been wondering, the Tactics skill of troops (due to skill templates) and lords doesn't effect their own autocalc values either.

So no reason to give companions that are going to be vassals this skill? Jesus, there is so much false information out there. From where do you have this info?

 

[Gorvex]

So I spent a long time just now trying to find a conclusive answer to the question whether the Tactics skill affects autocalc battles (and thus being important for AI lords when fighting parties other than the player's). Is there a conclusive answer to this?

I wish there was a comprehensive page on the wiki about how different skills affect lords/vassals.

Tactics skill modifies the ratio of troops participating in a battle round between the two sides. In autocalc battles, there are no battle rounds, as everyone fights everyone at the same time until one side either retreats or gets destroyed. Therefore Tactics skill is just as useless in autocalc values as if you would play on a battlesize that allows all units from both sides to appear at once. And if you've been wondering, the Tactics skill of troops (due to skill templates) and lords doesn't effect their own autocalc values either.

So no reason to give companions that are going to be vassals this skill? Jesus, there is so much false information out there. From where do you have this info?

You asked about autocalc battles only, not in general. Of course Tactics can still prove useful on companion-lords as long as you join them as an ally and the battle size is smaller than your cumulated party size, including the enemy. As for sources on this matter, I don't need any, it's common sense once you understood how autocalc battles work in PoP. At least I don't know about autocalc parties getting matched up in certain groups instead of both sides being put together as one (against each other) in Prophesy of Pendor. Speaking of which, PoP has its own autocalc system, created by MadVader (currently named Rodrigo Ribaldo https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,265787.msg6362902.html#msg6362902). What you could read about other mods do not necessarily apply here.

P.S.: In native, and all mods that inherited the default autocalc system, it's possible that autocalc battles get arranged in groups, which then could get influenced by Tactics in terms of ratio. At least I've seen some posts about Tactics vs Autocalc, but none was granted as a fact, as the "I think"/"it seems"/"looks like" and similar incertainties got phrased. The only fact-like claim I could find is here from Archonsod, but then again, I don't know if he ever got involved into the details of the autocalc mechanic according to how they got coded: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,128006.msg3089256.html#msg3089256

 

[Nikomakkos]

You asked about autocalc battles only, not in general. Of course Tactics can still prove useful on companion-lords as long as you join them as an ally and the battle size is smaller than your cumulated party size, including the enemy. As for sources on this matter, I don't need any, it's common sense once you understood how autocalc battles work in PoP. At least I don't know about autocalc parties getting matched up in certain groups instead of both sides being put together as one (against each other) in Prophesy of Pendor. Speaking of which, PoP has its own autocalc system, created by MadVader (currently named Rodrigo Ribaldo https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,265787.msg6362902.html#msg6362902). What you could read about other mods do not necessarily apply here.

P.S.: In native, and all mods that inherited the default autocalc system, it's possible that autocalc battles get arranged in groups, which then could get influenced by Tactics in terms of ratio. At least I've seen some posts about Tactics vs Autocalc, but none was granted as a fact, as the "I think"/"it seems"/"looks like" and similar incertainties got phrased. The only fact-like claim I could find is here from Archonsod, but then again, I don't know if he ever got involved into the details of the autocalc mechanic according to how they got coded: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,128006.msg3089256.html#msg3089256

I'd like to thank you for your time and effort, Gorvex. This is a great community and it's always nice to peek back in here.

But couldn't it be that the PoP devs, or the Native devs for that matter, coded in an arbitrary factor based on the Tactics skill that affects autocalc, much like they did with items and stats? Who knows? I guess we'll never know everything that's hiding under the hood. It'll have to remain a mystery.

Meanwhile my mind is torn on whether to allocate any of the precious skill points of my future vassals to the Tactics skill on the off-chance. I will be taking Tactics myself on my character so the only use for it on my vassals would be in autocalc battles when I'm not around.

 

[sher]

You can use faction lords as vassals - they don't have skill points to spare on such nonsense so you'll get rid of all these troubles and will have companions to use in party instead. Making lords out of companions is a complete waste of resources.

 

[Gorvex]

I'd like to thank you for your time and effort, Gorvex. This is a great community and it's always nice to peek back in here.

You're welcome, I hope I could be of help in a way

But couldn't it be that the PoP devs, or the Native devs for that matter, coded in an arbitrary factor based on the Tactics skill that affects autocalc, much like they did with items and stats? Who knows? I guess we'll never know everything that's hiding under the hood. It'll have to remain a mystery.

Rest assured, Tactics does not influence autocalc values directly as other stats do in PoP, that's 1000% sure. I got my own sources from being part of the development team during the make of v3.9.0. I'll quote myself from another post:

Each individual troop has offensive and defensive autocalc values. These get matched up against each other in battles to determine the losses of each side over time (Side A's offensive value VS. Side B's defensive value and Side B's offensive value VS. Side A's defensive value), until only one side remains, or the other side retreats.

These are what affect the autocalc value:
- STR - defensive bonus
- Ironflesh - defensive bonus
- Power Strike / Draw / Throw - offensive bonus
- AGI - defensive bonus
- weapon profs - offensive bonus
- armor pieces* - defensive bonus
- weapons* - offensive bonus
- horses* - offensive bonus

* Horses, armor pieces and weapons get their bonuses calculated separately, based on their stats ofc.

There are further bonuses:
- mounted troops (guaranteed 'horse') receive a huge bonus to their offensive and defensive values in field battles
- ranged units receive a bonus to their offensive value in sieges
- Noldors get a 2x bonus against the player's side

Troops get preset autocalc values upon compiling the game files from the source code, meaning that changing their stats or equipment won't change their autocalc power under normal circumstances.

That's about it in short.

Meanwhile my mind is torn on whether to allocate any of the precious skill points of my future vassals to the Tactics skill on the off-chance. I will be taking Tactics myself on my character so the only use for it on my vassals would be in autocalc battles when I'm not around.

I agree with sher, I also prefer to keep companions as immortal soldiers, CKO trainers, party skillers, troop suppliers, manhunters, etc. in my own party. You can get planty of vassals from the normal lords, 100 to be exact.

 

[Nikomakkos]

There are 20 companions, which is way too many to have in your party imo. It's a nice kick start to your kingdom to get some loyal vassals straight away. Also it's just fun. I will have plenty of companions left.

But it's awesome to know that I can skip the Tactics skill.

 

[YFLeo]

1. Coming back after a year or so, has something changed with war frequency? My faction hasn't been in a war for months, and the other factions only go to war occasionally. I've seen weeks go by with none of the factions at war.

2. If I force a war with a lord quest, how bad are the consequences in honor and relations?

3. Is there any other way to start a war?

 

[Zapper]

Should i keep throwing gems at the elixir, when it begins to only give 15 profs and 1 to each stat? Or is it time to go to the aziz mines?

 

[Gorvex]

Should i keep throwing gems at the elixir, when it begins to only give 15 profs and 1 to each stat? Or is it time to go to the aziz mines?

After the first 3 uses, it is suggested to leave the drinking of further elixirs towards the mid-game, as increasing weapon profs at the start is a lot easier than later on. So first get your profs up to 320+, then continue on drinking Elixirs of Arkon.

 

[Zapper]

Should i keep throwing gems at the elixir, when it begins to only give 15 profs and 1 to each stat? Or is it time to go to the aziz mines?

After the first 3 uses, it is suggested to leave the drinking of further elixirs towards the mid-game, as increasing weapon profs at the start is a lot easier than later on. So first get your profs up to 320+, then continue on drinking Elixirs of Arkon.

Thanks!

I just rebelled and formed my own kingdom, so i think i am past the midgame already

 

[Nikomakkos]

Should i keep throwing gems at the elixir, when it begins to only give 15 profs and 1 to each stat? Or is it time to go to the aziz mines?

It depends on what you want, dude. Can you live with the gear you have? Are your stats high enough for you? Do you perhaps need the gems for something else like founding KO chapters or getting Noldor troops?

Nobody can answer that question for you.

Second thought, go to the mines.

 

[Leonion]

So we've been having a debate on the Russian forum...

Is Ullr Vetr's bow an incarnation/embodiment of Ullr Vetr or just a gift from him?

I mean,
"qstr_The_God_UllrVetr_is_ The_God_UllrVetr_is_about_to_give_you_a_gift,_but_you_must_have_space_for_it_in_your_inventory." - sounds like a gift.
"qstr_A_god_s_voice_booms_across_t A_god's_voice_booms_across_the_sky:_I,_UllrVetr,_God_of_Bowmen,_manifest_myself_to_you_as_this_bow._Use_it_well_in_the_battle_to_come." sounds more like an embodiment.
And that one too: