Question to the Devs - Why the swing arcs are so long?

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Goyyyio

Regular
First of all, here's the showcase https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...ed-to-warband-exciting-visuals-inside.388168/

We all know how swing arcs work, there's no doubt some people have grievances with it, but I wanted to ask the devs directly what was the design choice for this, what was the aim in terms of multiplayer too, or if MP was taken account when designing the arcs.

Also, is there any awareness of the problem they represent in multiplayer, and how players have to play despite/adapt to the long arcs instead of enjoying the system?
 
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Roy1012

Archduke
It’s pretty dumb. Up and down attack are the only viable options in close quarters if you don’t want to hit your teammates.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Well... little more to add. After some persistence, we recently got this answer from NIN3 (now ex-Taleworlds dev) who at least tried to alleviate the problem:

NIN3 said:
I did bring it up internally back then too. Basically for the swing arcs to be reduced even further we would have to adjust the animations at this point. I did push it quite a bit with the last swing arc update, where I made them deal 10% damage on like 85% progress (of the animation) and then faded it out comepletly. Before that (since its a curve) the damage already gets reduced the further away from the perfect hit arc you are as we all know.

Design wise we are blocked to push this any further if the animations wont change, which I dont know if it will happen (doubt it though). (source)

I understand that animations must be readable and that's why game developers must "exaggerate" certain movements.

Chivalry 2 arguably has quite exaggerated swing arcs as it favours the kind of slow and lumpy combat the game offers. The funny thing is that even Chivalry 2 has much less obtuse swing arcs than Bannerlord's own... In my eyes it's a bit of a joke.

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However, both veteran players of the franchise on a competitive level such as OGL, Gibby, Charlini...etc to casual (:iamamoron:) players such as myself, agreed and agree that the swing arcs in Bannerlord are too exaggerated. If the animation is creating a problem in the gameplay, wouldn't it be ideal to nip the problem in the bud and fine-tune the animation? 😌 🎻

Well it seems that Taleworlds from the closed alpha-beta period of 2019 until what is supposed to be the end of EA in 2022 has not considered this issue as such.

We have what we have...
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I genuinely believe part of the issue is the game was balanced around no melee FF; which is frankly the worst way to play. I honestly didn't even really think about this issue until I started playing on custom-siege servers; where the issue becomes extremely pronounced.

I will say that Chivalry's swings can be extreme though - especially when you factor in drags/accels. You can easily cleave a good 270 degree arc. FF is extremely minimal in Chivalry though; as the combat in general is toned down.

As for Mordhau....

 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I genuinely believe part of the issue is the game was balanced around no melee FF; which is frankly the worst way to play. I honestly didn't even really think about this issue until I started playing on custom-siege servers; where the issue becomes extremely pronounced.
[...]
Exactly. And also in the new Battle mode it's being a ****show for many "careless" players who get the friendly damage penalty.
---
I was referring to the animation itself in static, not using spinning/ballerinas/drag.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Exactly. And also in the new Battle mode it's being a ****show for many "careless" players who get the friendly damage penalty.
---
I was referring to the animation itself in static, not using spinning/ballerinas/drag.
No I understand; but in mordhau the animation is meaningless because of other issues (as shown).
 

Death Knell

Recruit
Two-handers are overkill still in 1.7.2 even with RBM installed.

Bastard Swords are cheapish and it my preferred weapon of choice.
 

0tto

Regular
If the animation is creating a problem in the gameplay
shieldwall's can't attack, they hit their friends shields. it's not a 1/5 mistake either, over half their attacks get blocked.
line formation suffers as well, but not as game breaking

the only weapons that work are <60 length, but the units using them dry swing a lot
 

High Solar

Regular
I suspect the wide swing arcs were implemented to better facilitate the "hit multiple people in one swing" feature
Unfortunately this is not the case for every weapon. Only 2h axes can cleave trough 2 opponents. I think this should be the case for all 2h weapons and it should cleave trough more than 2 opponents especially when the blade goes trough the head.
 

Oakenlix

Sergeant
I still can't believe in 2022 the game punishes the player for using chained attacks because they are slower than the regular ones.

Let alone the arcs...
 
There would be a solution that would broaden the gameplay and deepen it.
Solution:
Make the arc width and damage dealt (accumulated energy) proportional to the charge time of the attack.
The amplitude of the arc however has a MINIMUM below which it is not possible to go down (let's assume 10 degrees).

benefits:
1) The attacks, the width and the damage, depend on how long the player holds down before releasing the attack button.
Then you can choose the arc of the desired width. At the same speed of the animation, the attack will be slower clearly as the amplitude of the arc increases.

2) some weapons that are not in the game, such as the rapier, require a style of use that the current combat system does not allow to use, since it allows the use of animations with very large bows.
Quick, small arc slashes and quick lunges.

With the implementation of the tip described above, even weapons such as the rapier would be usable.

3) apply it to the spears.
The spears have 2 types of attack, high mouse and low mouse.
You could also introduce left and right.
The quick style and with small bows would allow you to use the spears with the oriental style.
Although we cannot be faithful in terms of "historical accuracy" regarding the animations (because they must be legible and not woody), we would still have the accuracy of gameplay, ie the fact that that style is present, can be used and has similar effects. compared to reality.

So all spears could have small or large arcs in all directions (right, left and up), and the lunge would be as fast as the key is held down.

In this way the spears are more usable (and can have the effects of an oriental style even if the animations are not in an oriental style ... which in some ways is not even completely negative).

Obviously all of this would change the game meta, but we're not here trying to hold back progress just because some people can't feel pro after a patch, right?
 

Askorti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
There would be a solution that would broaden the gameplay and deepen it.
Solution:
Make the arc width and damage dealt (accumulated energy) proportional to the charge time of the attack.
The amplitude of the arc however has a MINIMUM below which it is not possible to go down (let's assume 10 degrees).

benefits:
1) The attacks, the width and the damage, depend on how long the player holds down before releasing the attack button.
Absolutely not. You do not need to stand around for a second to "charge-up" an attack in real life. This is an extremely gamey idea that I don't think fits a system that tries to be realistic-ish in any way.

While I agree that being able to choose in how big an arc you want to attack would be desirable, charging up some stupid meter by holding your attack button is a horrible way of going about it.

A different, still flawed, but imo much better approach would be to add stances similar to what was done in Jedi Academy way back in the day. You had your light stance for quick attacks in short arcs, your balanced stance, and your heavy stance for wide and powerful swings. Those stances could be changed pretty much instantly on the fly.

But we know that neither of the ideas has even a glimmer of a chance of being implemented so who really cares...
 

black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
There would be a solution that would broaden the gameplay and deepen it.
Solution:
Make the arc width and damage dealt (accumulated energy) proportional to the charge time of the attack.
Here's some examples of why this is bad:
  • charging up an attack but the opponent runs the other way now you've just wasted your time
  • or while you charge an attack while someone snipes you with a bow because your a stationary target
  • or better yet have people wasting time trying and not contributing to the team just to stay hidden most of the match in hopes they can maybe sneak attack someone with a charged attack.
Charged attacks are gamey and have no place in a multiplayer game. Multiplayer games are suppose to be about coordination and teamwork not some silly gimmick just to "broaden gameplay".
 
Absolutely not. You do not need to stand around for a second to "charge-up" an attack in real life. This is an extremely gamey idea that I don't think fits a system that tries to be realistic-ish in any way.

While I agree that being able to choose in how big an arc you want to attack would be desirable, charging up some stupid meter by holding your attack button is a horrible way of going about it.

A different, still flawed, but imo much better approach would be to add stances similar to what was done in Jedi Academy way back in the day. You had your light stance for quick attacks in short arcs, your balanced stance, and your heavy stance for wide and powerful swings. Those stances could be changed pretty much instantly on the fly.

But we know that neither of the ideas has even a glimmer of a chance of being implemented so who really cares...
Here's some examples of why this is bad:
  • charging up an attack but the opponent runs the other way now you've just wasted your time
  • or while you charge an attack while someone snipes you with a bow because your a stationary target
  • or better yet have people wasting time trying and not contributing to the team just to stay hidden most of the match in hopes they can maybe sneak attack someone with a charged attack.
Charged attacks are gamey and have no place in a multiplayer game. Multiplayer games are suppose to be about coordination and teamwork not some silly gimmick just to "broaden gameplay".
Did I specify a charging time?
What if I said 0.1 seconds maximum?
All your comment would have been useless.

Before answering someone with a counter-argument you should think about the BEST of their arguments set IN THE BEST POSSIBLE CONDITIONS, and possibly making it explicit.
Or, set two conditions, the best (or tolerable) and the worst (intolerable) and respond to both.

Having closed this controversy, I present the example of the solution in a neutral situation:
The game animations are AS CURRENTLY THEY ARE.
Let's assume that when the player moves the mouse in one direction and presses the key to attack the arc covered by the arm that goes from angle 0 to the maximum angle theta-max is completed in a certain time Tmax and from there on the player decides whether to keep the key pressed or to release it.
Currently in play, regardless of when the key is released (therefore also for t <Tmax), the arc traveled always goes from 0 <theta = theta-max.
(for now we ignore the heavy attack mechanic in the game)
My solution implies that:
If the player releases the attack key in a time of 0 <t <Tmax, then the angle traveled by the arm during the charge of the attack will be 0 <theta <theta-max and it will be theta = theta-max only if t = Tmax.

In summary: the BIGGEST AND LONGEST animations that I am placing are only THE SAME WITH WHICH YOU ALREADY PLAY.
This means that generally the arcs of the attacks will be shorter the shorter the charge time, the maximum value of which is Tmax, ALREADY PRESENT IN GAME.

Since I have also suggested a minimum arc under which one cannot descend, this implies that there is also a time Tmin, which is equal to the length of the arc divided by the speed (expressed in radians) of the weapon.
Even if the button is released in a time t <Tmin, the arc traveled will still be theta = theta-min.


Regarding certain counter-arguments that I don't know where they came from:
-by charging the attack I do not mean anything other than what the character is currently doing in play when he brings his arm, with the weapon in position and then launches the attack.

If it is not clear, what I am proposing SPEEDS the game, not the other way around.
And in addition to speeding it up (balancing its damage), it makes it deeper.
And by deep I mean those damn spears can be used as a player wants them to be used.
If he wants to use them slowly by charging attacks, he can do it, but if he wants to perform faster but less effective attacks in terms of damage, he can do it as well.
And if he wants to attack from the left or right, he can do it.
 

Faranox

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SVC
A different, still flawed, but imo much better approach would be to add stances similar to what was done in Jedi Academy way back in the day. You had your light stance for quick attacks in short arcs, your balanced stance, and your heavy stance for wide and powerful swings. Those stances could be changed pretty much instantly on the fly.
This post reminded me that Bannerlord has a stance system lmao. https://www.reddit.com/r/mountandblade/comments/fumtl8/advanced_bannerlord_melee_combat_stances_and/
On topic: swing arcs are wacky, would love to hear why TW chose to do it this way.
 
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