Question of honor

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Damn

Sergeant at Arms
So, my problem is: I noticed that looting villages drops your honor rating. AFAIK, it's not like things used to be in native. So right now my honor is like -130 or smth like that, and most of my faction lords hate me ( marshall hates meh strongly : - 60  :grin: ).
And now I'm worried. As a vassal of Crusader States, I pillaged so much villages so there is no much point in capturing lands of our current enemies - villages hate me. So after opening like 20 dyeworks I was planning to start a new life as a vassal of France (no more pillaging thanks to enterprises), but since my relations with lords got so bad I don't think it's worth it.
I don't really understand the logics behind that - pillaging villages was quite often in medieval ages and wasn't concerned as dishonorable deed. In fact, it was most effective\popular way to deny your opponent food resources and raise your troops morale.

I didn't start this thread to whine mindlessly (especially if devs will explain their thoughts) + I'm not 100% sure if Native doesn't have this problem (haven't played it for ages). Trying to be constructive, I say that implementing honor penalty for pillaging is wrong, coz:

* Gameplay mechanics point:
- Pillaging villages isn't that good  by itself due to relationship drop., coz in later game, when you're able to gather a big enough party to conquer lands, you WILL want all villages at least neutral.
- When you pillage one's village, you suffer relationship drop with your potential vassals (in longer term). That's a significant thing as it is, coz if you want to start your own kingdom, you WILL need as much vassals as you can afford. And now with honor penalty working, you lose relationship with both your faction leaders AND your enemy lords. That's kinda imba to me.
- In this mod, where everything (equip and wages) is noticeably expensive, outlaws parties are VERY hard to find and ransom brokers can be VERY rare, completely nerfing already risky income source kinda spoils early game (and later, when your army eats income like nom-nom-nom-bankrupt).
- Not clear\often enough ways to gain honor.

*Historical point
As I already said, pillaging villages wasn't a dishonorable deed. All famous warlords looted numerous villages, but it didn't spoiled their reputation ( not back then nor today).

So what do good people of this mod think about this penalty?

P.S
I'd appreciate a few advises how could I possibly get rid of that "honor debt"? Refusing to take stuff from freed villages and releasing captured lords don't rly work coz these events are relatively rare.
 
While we're at it lets take away the penalty to relations when you kill off a factions caracans and take their loot. I mean lets be real, there are no survivors so i see no logic as to how the faction knows its you that does it.

However much that is true though, it would still unbalance the game hence the penalties.
 
You loose honor if you loot villages as a vassal?
How did you manage to have the marshal hate you that much? Did you loot your own villages?  :shock:

I loot a lot and haven't noticed any penalties at least not between my own faction members. I remember from the native though that looting without being a vassal is just being a bandit, same with caravans.

May be your renown value at that time was lower than the respectable 150?
No, still, how did you manage to have your own faction hate you that much?

:cool:
 
I think that once you get horrible honor rating you get hated by some number of lords, regardless of their nationality (those old-school chivalry fans  :grin: ), coz I have intact by that honor-plague lords in my faction as well  :grin:

EDIT

Well, after recalling some facts from mah game, I think I know where things could get ugly:

1) I joined Crusader States
2) At war with Mamluks (have been raiding villages, but did not checked honor rating\side text info)
3) Finished off Mamlukes, short period of no war.
4) Not wanting to disband my 40 knights, I figured that army should feed itself and went for my own (no official war) anti-mongol crusade (with looting villages, but still didn't checked the side texts). I thing this is the point where things could go wrong - I mean getting "- honor" for looting factions villages I'm not at war with. But this self-made crusade wasn't long enough, coz Roman Empire (red one) declared war on us. That's when I noticed I'm getting "-honor" for looting villages - but now they belong to our enemies. I'm so confused.
5) Another war started with Kingdom of Sicily, and again I gain "-honor" for raids in its villages.

Could honor system mess up after I attacked nation that was neutral to Crusader States? Coz now I'm 100% sure I'm dishonored every time I loot village of our enemy.

+
I lose honor when I choose "you're my prisoner now". Not rly sure it wasn't neutral lord though  :grin:
 
"I lose honor when I choose "you're my prisoner now". Not rly sure it wasn't neutral lord though  :grin:

Thx a lot. Your description of your behaviour made me laugh. Way to go in the name of christianity!  :wink: No offence btw just a good laughter.

Me, as a king, I wouldn't be sure if I am glad to have you and your 40 knights at my side. At least better than on my enemy's side, but still...


Greetings!


 
No offence of course  :grin: Was laughing myself at this weird situation I got myself into. While I can understand my king's reaction to my initiative (that dumb vassal will get us in trouble) and, maybe, marshal's (oh snap! that idiot won't let us enjoy peace !), but it's 1\2 to 1\3 of all lords who don't like me (some didn't knew me personally, when we first met after my heroic deeds, they already had from -10 to  like -30 with me)
+ some neutral faction lords (bulgarian kingdom, if I recall) won't let me into their castles. Again, lords I've never met.

Just realized that whole world hates meh  :cry: But I was thinking about my brothers in belief! And some dollar-dollar, just by the way  :grin:
 
The problem is having a reputation as the sort of guy who loots people he's not actually at war with. If you were some other nation, even if not one getting looted, how much would you trust them? What if you're feeling a financial pinch and happen to be on their border? Swing through, raid and pillage some?

The negative honor hit is because you're not just raiding and pillaging in war, you're making a hobby out of it with bystanders. Don't get me wrong, that sort of thing can be loads of fun, I took my horde of Norsemen on 'the blonding of eastern Europe'. Of course everyone hated me, I pillaged every village east of the HRE. Yes, they hated me. Lots of people did; I was aimlessly rampaging across the countryside. Nobles who consider themselves honorable would look down on me and the villages I just pillaged will likely be a bit cross - at least until 1273, when all of their young girls and boys have grow up looking surprisingly Norwegian.

I'd say it fits and is logical. Same with caravans; attacking caravans hurts the 'common folk' not just the enemy army. Is it a viable tactic? Of course it is. Just that it's one that's going to piss a lot of people off.
 
'tis a native thing. Honor works sort of this way:

if you have honor "honorable" lords will tend yo like you more, and dishonorable ones will loath you. and viceversa. Thing is there are more honorable dudes out there.
How you gain honor?

*Doing village missions and not accepting the rewards
*Not capturing enemy lords
*Don't raid villages and avoid taking out caravans

hope it helps
 
Kinsume said:
I mean lets be real, there are no survivors so i see no logic as to how the faction knows its you that does it.
1. There are always survivors.  Somebody married into a nearby village and is not happy that you killed their entire family and will spend time and effort talking bad about you.  The people who sent the caravan will see your use of force as unsporting and will spend time and effort making you miserable.
2. "How can my honor be going down, I slit the throats of everybody I stole from and raped?" is a question only asked by silly people.  You associate with folks that like to pillage, and you get a reputation as a bad man. 
3. Once you get the nickname "Bugsy" for your quaint habit of going mental, you never lose the nickname; even though folks stop calling it to your face after a very small number of stabbing incidents...or even one impalement. 
4. Retaliation went to real extremes back in the day, which is why a reputation as good guy generally transcended cultures.  Saladin "Salah ad-Din" was a nice Kurdish boy who made good.  So good in fact that everybody who cared about such things considered him the perfect knight. 
5. Something else to keep in mind is that Tamerlane, who comes along in the next century, depopulated most of Persia.  He didn't just burn crops and destroy fields, Tamerlane exterminated the peasants, turning croplands into deserts for generations after his passing.  This is considered "right out" by all the peasants based on the principle that you can milk a cow any number of times, but you can only skin it once.

Looting villages should get you on the outs with decent people who want to live well.  Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas. 
 
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