Quest for best all-purpose ranged unit
- 主题发起人 Ogrecorps
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Dathlos 说:
lol, I double edited and you responded right in the middle.
What about the nobles I find in taverns? They upgrade along a specific path, yes? Can't be turned to Orders, no?
And has it occured to anyone else that there are an absurd number of nobles in Pendor? I mean really, it's like they are the middle class! There is nothing high-falutin about being a 'noble' in Pendor 'cause so many people are that you can't - how was it put? - swing a noble in a tavern without hitting a noble and knocking them both over into a big pile of nobles!
Ogrecorps 说:Wait, those are MORNINGSTARS KotEG carry?! Like, bashes-through-blocks morningstars?! And they wear plate armor?! *groan of pleasure - but not the obscene sounding kind* OMFG SIGN ME UP.
Oh, and uh, save this PoP noob some trouble and outline how to get KotEGs, please? I know:
Get Qualis Gem from unique spawn/Noldor tourney/Rane not-so-hidden chest
Found order
????
Profit
The funny thing is that the ???? really is what I am unsure of. Do I need to recruit Nobles? I'm not clear on how Orders work and left my downloaded manual in my other pants (desktop at home).
Edit: I notice a sword in the hand of one of the KotEGs in the sig above me here - hail, grandmaster! I grovel and beg for shield bashing xbow experts! - do they have a selection of weapons to load out with? Given the choice between mstars, axes, and swords on my dream unit (that sounded bad, didn' tit?) swords are lowest choice because I HATE enemy shields and bypassing them altogether sounds like where it' sat. Failing that I'm okay with hacking them to bits but swords I have no use for except melting into axes and mstars.
Look up the FAQ for how to get a knight order started, better detail there but in short:
Maintain good/neutral relations with the KEGs (you start the game at 0/neutral anyway, and they have no chapterhouses so you should not run into any of their patrols. 0/Neutral is all you need).
Own a castle/town.
Tell the steward in a town/castle you own, to establish a KEG chapterhouse (one Qualis Gem required).
Recruit/capture Pendor Nobleman, which can be trained into Squires, then Foot Knights which finally, can be upgraded to KEGs.
Upgade Pendor FKs to KEGs at the War Room in the town/castle the KEGger house is located in.
Yeah, so it's easier after you declare yourself, king of your own domain and choose to rebuild the Pendor Empire (then build a shrine in every village and a church in every town... this attracts Pendor Noblemen to flock to your banner). The game will periodically tell you that a bunch of noblemen have joined you (due to shrines/churches and your latest winning streak at war)... then talk to the steward at your court (either the first town/castle you own or where ever you move your court to) to induct them into your labour force.
Before the latest 33% hike in wages, KEGs and SiRs were actually cheaper than Adventurers. I've got... nearly 10k troops and my troop bill is just 10k most of the time. I put all my expensive stuff in my husband's garrisons. At least he's good for something. This form of preemptive alimony cuts your troop expenses to the bone and this way, he has less wherewithal to go out drinking with the boys.
Double lol! you responded 46 seconds after I did!
I better make this fast then:
You can DO that?! 
That's what I left in my other pants, the downloaded manual/faq thing but I'll check the stickied thread too.
Can someone point me to the details of KotEGs? All their gear and character build?
I better make this fast then:
Asphe 说:
You can DO that?! Asphe 说:
That's what I left in my other pants, the downloaded manual/faq thing but I'll check the stickied thread too.
Can someone point me to the details of KotEGs? All their gear and character build?
danthegreat
Regular
pendor armoured bowmen the perfect balancer for my pendor swords and dshar bladesmen because of their 2handers they are also very easy to recruit
SaintJimmyz
Regular
Asphe 说:
What. The. Actual. Feck.
I have 85 troops and my wage bill is 10k.
Ogrecorps 说:
You cant upgrade these into order knights, these are 'mercenary' nobles. They do however upgrade into Adventurers, who are just win on horseback. Give them about 20k exp (it takes fecking ages to upgrade them) and they turn into Hero Adventurers. Get yourself a bunch of them, and you will roflstomp PoP. Adventurers cost well over 100 denars per week, and Hero Adventurers cost well over 200 per week, so they are expensive. My 10k wage bill ^ is for my army of 20 Hero Adventurers, 40 Adventurers, and 20 or so mid tier merc nobles on the way to becoming Adventurers. So expensive, but so much win. Get a merc contract not a fief; merc contracts in PoP are great and actuall pay you a decent amount, but I still need to farm 3k denars per week to break even...
LuvSimplePlan
Banned
Beat my army of 30 Cobra Warriors.Well , lost about 80 of the to my second attempt on Syla(win him tho)
XSevSpreeX
Squire
Ya if you don't mind fielding a cavalry army than Hero Adventurers would be the way to go. They really are all-purpose with their 500 weapon proficiencies, high level, horses, heavy armor, bows, and one-handed weapons.
A new problem/goal has arisen: I want to get into Noldor Tournies ASAP. I'm willing to (read: am going to) throw away the 120ish day character I have already for a new start (I'm a perfectinist). Raising Noldor relations was a blast since I led their unique spawn that starts with and I around Jatu land until we had together annihilated 4 of those recurring Jatu armies (more than 2000 Jatu killed!) so I'm not worried about that at all. The hurdle is the army you have to kill to pass Quigfen's quest. 200ish Jatu that ignore absolutely everything not Noldor (hell, they might ignore them for all I know) are not as easy as I would have liked. Kiting them into Empire territory and joinging in when they get in a fight was my first plan but no, not happening.
So now I need to figure out how to kill them on my own. I'm thinking of going full-on CHA to start with for large force (leadership) primarily and money (leadership savings, prisoner management, probably not trade though, companion for that) secondarily. I have two problems though:
1) The text during character creation has changed but have the affects? I know there are relations that are affected but I need to know if anything else was tweeked.
2) I'm planning on whittling the Jatu force down by attacking, getting stomped, rebuilding and coming at them again. Obviously mercs would seem to be the answer here to save time but I might not have the money for that. On day 100 I had just passed 100K in my purse from building a merchant character (but doing no trading almost) and diving into the Fierdsvain/Ravenstern war head first but that was a different character build, trade skill at 7 not counting whatever bonus I got for being the leader. So the question then is what line of promotion gives me the best shot against Jatu? If I can't use mercs exclusively for money reasons then I have to pick raw recruits that have a solid path of promotion so that units at various stages along it are still effective. I'm thinking of using Empire xbows and trying to catch the Jatu in a steep spot. What do you guys think?
Edit: The other character build option I am looking at is all STR so that when I get that ruby god-bow I can actually use it. Some Noldor arrows and I SHOULD be dropping Jatu chargers as they come up whatever slope I can arrange. Kite them around in front of my xbows, hope for a dozen or so kills before getting KO'd, retreat, repeat.
I'm a very hands-on fighter so STR all the way is going to be more along my play style anyway but might not give me the money I need for merc-fodder or the army size I need to make a dent in the Jatu. Remember that the goal is to be getting pwnd in Noldor tournies asap so I can't wait around until I have EAC's or KotEGs galore. I want awesome weapons to do awesome killing because that is the gateway to everything - including getting revenge on those damned scorpion assassins (I'm 0 for 3 with them) - so that means runed and that means Noldor tournies.
So now I need to figure out how to kill them on my own. I'm thinking of going full-on CHA to start with for large force (leadership) primarily and money (leadership savings, prisoner management, probably not trade though, companion for that) secondarily. I have two problems though:
1) The text during character creation has changed but have the affects? I know there are relations that are affected but I need to know if anything else was tweeked.
2) I'm planning on whittling the Jatu force down by attacking, getting stomped, rebuilding and coming at them again. Obviously mercs would seem to be the answer here to save time but I might not have the money for that. On day 100 I had just passed 100K in my purse from building a merchant character (but doing no trading almost) and diving into the Fierdsvain/Ravenstern war head first but that was a different character build, trade skill at 7 not counting whatever bonus I got for being the leader. So the question then is what line of promotion gives me the best shot against Jatu? If I can't use mercs exclusively for money reasons then I have to pick raw recruits that have a solid path of promotion so that units at various stages along it are still effective. I'm thinking of using Empire xbows and trying to catch the Jatu in a steep spot. What do you guys think?
Edit: The other character build option I am looking at is all STR so that when I get that ruby god-bow I can actually use it. Some Noldor arrows and I SHOULD be dropping Jatu chargers as they come up whatever slope I can arrange. Kite them around in front of my xbows, hope for a dozen or so kills before getting KO'd, retreat, repeat.
I'm a very hands-on fighter so STR all the way is going to be more along my play style anyway but might not give me the money I need for merc-fodder or the army size I need to make a dent in the Jatu. Remember that the goal is to be getting pwnd in Noldor tournies asap so I can't wait around until I have EAC's or KotEGs galore. I want awesome weapons to do awesome killing because that is the gateway to everything - including getting revenge on those damned scorpion assassins (I'm 0 for 3 with them) - so that means runed and that means Noldor tournies.
Can't you just lure the jatus near a lord gathering and attack and the lords will join in. I don't think it was like this in previous versions. In those lords joined fight if you were sided with them or they liked you. So far I have destroyed 4 unique spawns just by luring them near lords and attacking. I sport only (and all) companions atm because I haven't joined any of the factions and therefore would not be able to store troops anywhere. But I don't want to miss on the really big fights x).
Gem-blocking, got to love that word . Hmmm... that's tough that it doesn't chase. Didn't even know that. My previous char just steamrolled it in the woods, but I had an army back then. You could try if this works though it will be tedious: Get negative relations on a faction and then get a lord you have good relations with from that faction to chase right near the jatus. Then try if you can use your good relations to get neutral with the faction by talking to the lord and if that works you have atleast some force to back you up.
. Hmmm... that's tough that it doesn't chase. Didn't even know that. My previous char just steamrolled it in the woods, but I had an army back then. You could try if this works though it will be tedious: Get negative relations on a faction and then get a lord you have good relations with from that faction to chase right near the jatus. Then try if you can use your good relations to get neutral with the faction by talking to the lord and if that works you have atleast some force to back you up.
Ogrecorps 说:
Killing the small (yes, it's SMALL for a Jatu ARMY) Jatu Army.
A - Terrain: they wander around the woods, so if you fight them there, you negate the most critical Jatu ability, namely their 1-shot kill lance attacks. OR fight them in the open and use the 'red shirt defence. See B.
B - The Red Shirt Defence: the Jatu AI isn't too smart. They will ALL aim for the most tempting/closest target at the start of the battle. What if that target is you... on a Spirit Horse? So pick a fight in open field terrain. At the start of the battle, ride out in front then hit the map key and order your forces/etc. (Again, more on that later, see C). What will typically happen is that the Jatu horde will come for YOU. So ride off in a big circle, 'kiting' them along. One good bow and 3 bags of arrows (DO get more and put them in your inventory) means you can potentially dismount almost a hundred Jatu riders (yeah right. Still, aim for the white Coursers. AVOID actually killing the Jatu! See D). As you circle, you will note three things. Namely, that if any Jatu are hit by your troops, those Jatu will go towards your troops (and get slaughtered, see C). Jatu that are dismounted.. will still chase after you (still in Cavalry AI mode, seriously!). Furthermore, Jatu reinforcements will also go after your troops/main body after spawning.
C - Back to the Wall Defence. Put your troops in such a way that they have their back to the invisible wall surrounding the battlefield. This means they can't be outflanked. You'd want to pick the spot that is furthest way from where the undisciplined Jatu reinforcements will spawn. Thus any reinforcements will arrive as a long column of troops. The poor Jatu are actually crossing their own 'T' for you. Ideally, your troops will be composed of missile troops firing heavy ammunition (i.e. crossbows) and heavy infantry with good anti-cavalry (shields, long arms...) properties. You're bound to be outnumbered so you want good troops. If you can manage to put your guys at the top of a steep hill, so much the better. This also leaves the Baggage with your spare arrows away from your troops.
D - Managing the Jatu Hordes. Ok, so you have a bunch of dismounted Jatu vainly chasing you around. Meanwhile, their reinforcements are arriving at the bottom of a hill, becoming human porcupines from crossbow bolts and then being butchered by your infantry. To better the odds further, try to time your 'great circle' so you will pass near the reinforcements spawn points to give you the best chance to entice the new troops (you can actually approximately estimate when the reinforcements should arrive by looking at the number of active Jatu troops). When you are reasonably sure that no Jatu reinforcements are due, adjust your circle so your 'tail' can catch a little 'heat' from your missile troops. Repeat ad nauseum.
Conditions for the above: Battlesize of 150, maximum difficulty settings. I'd strongly suggest crossbow troops (they are really there to just 'pull' a few Jatu at a time) with your companions (on horses) and good infantry. At maximum difficulty... you can take about 5-6 arrow hits. It would REALLY help if you are a good horse archer (if you can manage 75% headshots on their horses... you are gold! But not as good as meow!). I did this with about 75 troops plus companions... using mostly Empire Crossbowman and simple infantry fodder I captured... you CAN use dismounted cavalry to replace infantry. The snake-heads are very good for this, cheap and disposable yet quite deadly for level 20 'knights'
The hardest part by far is getting them into the open field. If you lack the patience for this, then engage them on the 'hillsides' near places like Shieldstorm Keep and the such. You just want a somewhat open place so you can ride, shoot backwards and not hit a tree. Else, if you CAN ride, shoot and not hit a tree (while chewing bubblegum)... fighting in the forest gives your troops an even bigger advantage.
Besides, you CAN retreat. Go in, kill some. Get out, rest. Go in again. But where is the fun in that?
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Ogrecorps 说:Double lol! you responded 46 seconds after I did!
I better make this fast then:
Asphe 说:
Why yes! Yes you CAN. In fact, in between active campaigns, you can put ALL your troops in your husband's garrisons. ALL of them and even your companions can be sent off on 'missions'. So your wages bill can be very light. I recommend leaving the 'cheap' troops in your garrisons though, so if someone does declare war on you, you don't have to 'ferry' as many troops (if you are at truce with everyone... the AI never breaks a truce ^-^). Besides, money should have stopped being a concern by this point.
Acanthoid 说:Gem-blocking, got to love that word
That sounds wonderfully complex and fun and all except for getting neutral relations: the option (in native and other mods I've played) isn't there unless HE is running from YOU or in a center. So if he's chasing me into the woods... The more likely hope is that some Noldor will spawn or one of their two marauding unique spawns will get close then, with 17 relation with them, perhaps I can get some assistance.However, I'm not betting the ranch on it so - after doing some more research on Empire xbow units - methinks the best plan is this: STR build (because violence and the ability to dish it out without the need of an army is the key to everything incuding money which is the key to almost everything else), the biggest and badest companions I can get (not intending to keep them, quite the opposite in fact since I prefer lower-level companions I can customize easier), ruby god-bow for free, trade the free gem in Rane to open Quigfen's shop and get a spiffy-quick 1h sword, Empire xbows, attack the Jatu in a steeps spot for better hillage, chip 'em down and get taken out before all of my troops are killed so I don't get captured, get more xbows, do it again.
I'm tempted to do as you did and just do all the prep with companions only but on my current character I've gotten probably 300 or more people killed under my command so I have to believe that they were doing SOMEthing useful like soaking up arrows and/or javelins. Plus, I have to have some decent xbowmen in my party to even dent the Jatu quest-force gem-blockers and can't rely on mercs entirely for that honor.
So Stage 1 is befriend the Noldor and prepare to take on 200 Jatu before day 100,
Stage 2 is kill the Jatu quest-force, get gems from Noldor tournies while stockpiling money as a merc,
Stage 3 is get the best armor possible, get gem weapons, raise an army of EAC's, take a castle, start a KotEG chapter then pledge to another faction (renounce later, captured fief comes with, yes?) or just ride it out,
Stage 4 is start steamrolling with EAC's and KotEG's while using... Levy Skirmishers or something T3ish as garrisons.
Sound good? I know the thread is kinda drifting off topic but it helps me to think out loud and couldn't hurt to ask what y'all thought since I only got this mod 4 or 5 days ago.
Edit: Forgot to address this mass of good advice:
Asphe 说:
Pretty much all of that was excatly my plan. I fought 4 of the large Jatu armies alongside Ithilrandir to get my relations up and pretty much did just exactly what you said: kited them around with the Noldor archers bunched up on a steep hill at the edge of the map or as near as I could get, concentrated on keeping my shield up and not getting pwnd, and occasionally took a cheap shot at an unarmored horse or two. I'll tell ya, thems was some epic battles for me having only been playing this mod for a little while. Also I've played horse archer characters before and been pretty durn good so that's what I'm going for here and the primary reason I want to go STR right out the gate: the free ruby god-bow in Ravenstern has 94 speed and 50 damage so is pretty much completely awesome when combined with some powerdraw skill and Noldor arrows. I anticipate many Jatu walking angrily around and getting pincushioned.
As for retreating, I'd rather be KO'd first so I don't take the -20 Renown hit.
Gr. Adm. Thrawn
Veteran
Hmmm, I don't use AI or map limitations, so the way I deal with cavalry is feeding their horses my ruby 2 hand sword, usually takes one swing to unhorse them sometimes taking the rider down along with the poor stead.
With those with lances, it is trickier but no problem if you are careful. The problem is crashing into another horse which means in a second or two you will wish that you had vaseline.
With those with lances, it is trickier but no problem if you are careful. The problem is crashing into another horse which means in a second or two you will wish that you had vaseline.
Yep, that's another way to do it. I'd get a Knight Lance or similar, it out-reaches the Honor Lance by just enough. But to have to do this near perfectly 50-60 times... that's tough and in the meantime those pesky archers keep pecking away at your health. That's why I started dismounting their archers... then realised.. why not dismount ALL of them? Also, I'm not completely sure but using a normal lance attack outreaches a couched lance attack in my experience. I'd gallop at the target than launch the lance, then almost immediately swerve to the left... if I connect, it's almost certainly a kill. If you find this also to be a bit of 'cheating', go into the items text and either shorten the lances or better yet, lengthen all the ones carried by infantry.
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The AI 'limitations' can be found throughout human history too, typically in cultures that encourage warriors to race to the front to strike the first blow in the name of yer olde local deity or the parentland. Takes discipline to both not rush forward and to not flee backwards. Either way, don't feel bad taking advantage of them... console yourself by enabling maximum difficulty and always bringing less instead of more to the fight.
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Kinda funny that the Jatu are barbs. That kind of lance attack is usually done by more formal armies. The olde Cataphracts comes to mind. And here we are butchering 'cataphracts' using Mongol horde tactics. The tactics I outlined above were used to demolish Polish knights during the initial invasion.
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The AI 'limitations' can be found throughout human history too, typically in cultures that encourage warriors to race to the front to strike the first blow in the name of yer olde local deity or the parentland. Takes discipline to both not rush forward and to not flee backwards. Either way, don't feel bad taking advantage of them... console yourself by enabling maximum difficulty and always bringing less instead of more to the fight.
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Kinda funny that the Jatu are barbs. That kind of lance attack is usually done by more formal armies. The olde Cataphracts comes to mind. And here we are butchering 'cataphracts' using Mongol horde tactics. The tactics I outlined above were used to demolish Polish knights during the initial invasion.
Othienka 说:Asphe 说:
No wonder I never found the Jatu as hard as comments in the forums made them to be. But then I always did this because it's what a horse archer is supposed to do . . .
Yeah, I read "red-shirt defense" and gave a little chuckle then later found myself muttering as I did it "red-shirt defense... ENGAGE!" then lol'd and got killed.
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