Prosperity and food shortage...

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AngryPanCake

AngryPanCake

Sergeant
Hello,

It looks like this has already been pointed out in Nov 2021 (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...m-starving-prosperity-mechanic-issues.448024/), but I am not sure whether it has been looked into or any players have figured out a solution/workaround. It seems like Prosperity is inversely related to Food status and the higher the Prosperity the worse the Food shortage. I could not figure out how to fix this despite using the Console to improve certain buildings (by the way, the Console does not recognize all the buildings in the game). I have also reduced the Garrison to bare bones and still no fix for the food shortage.
When you look at the Food info, it shows Prosperity -25, Garrison -8 at 160 men. Reduced the Garrison the 40 men and the food shortage due to it went down to -4 or something.

Players who have played long playthroughs, how did you deal with the food shortages? did it cause rebellions? did it cause "desertions"?

Thank you,
APC
 
The first building (everywhere) is a garden, for food. This is even more important than the workshop if you play without mods.

1 food = 20 people in the garrison.
We give castles (all) to lords (one per clan), they prevent our villages from being robbed, which also saves food growth.

Emphasis on engineering, for yourself and companions - capturing calradia is easier than holding.

Good laws (fines on taxes, because there is a forge - money printer, loyalty and food - max).

Or you can do it easier - install a mod for food donations in cities and castles (there are many of them, including my mod).

But in any case, I do not pay much attention to prosperity, there is almost no sense in it.
Given the food penalty, low prosperity (2-5k) is even more profitable than ultra-high (10k+).
 
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@AngryPanCake
-If- you can set kingdom policies, you can mitigate the problem in unmodded play by putting in place Minus Prosperity policies sufficient to cap Prosperity at a level sustainable by the settlement. That would be "more negative than the inherent positives of Loyalty, Governor bonuses, et al" that persist even when food shortages turn off some of the other positive modifiers. Generally speaking, this requires -1.2 ~ -1.5, from policies like Road Tolls and Crown Duties.
That said, there are mods that allow more plausible solutions, and some of the arguments I've made to the Devs about the economy have and do look into the mathematics of how Prosperity functions and ways to correct the larger problem ( larger problem being: fixed maximum of resources on the map; openended Prosperity changes, potentially nonviable total economy basis of the game world even at peace).
Hope that helps.
 
ergh, I missed answering this part. Sorry, mate:
Players who have played long playthroughs, how did you deal with the food shortages? did it cause rebellions? did it cause "desertions"?

Castles and towns are different problems. Towns starve, Loyalty craters, Garrison drops (although only wounded, as of e1.7.x versions?) and yes you'll get revolts as soon as Loyalty is below 25 and Militia can beat the Garrison. But Towns can be, carefully, restored to Food Positive by external means. While you drive Prosperity back down to a manageable level, you can feed the town market. Generally, drops of around +200 Grain, +30 Meat +40 Fish +20 Butter +20 Cheese (if Prosperity above 4k; less below that) +10 Beer will get you most of the positives when they are counted (takes a couple of days) and you'll need to do such drops every 2-5 days while restoring the Town. Keep the Town's Village Market Parties safe and getting to/from town. Keep your vill's unraided if you can, heh. Long term, make sure the Garden is max level. But you know those last items. And eventually your Food Positive will begin to refill the Granary... and as soon as it starts that, all your Properity Plus modifiers turn back on, so watch out for Prosperity rise while you are still struggling to find sustainable levels.

Castles... currently can not revolt. They do lose all recruiting slots in their villages from low Loyalty situations. But so long as Prosperity + Garrison minuses overwhelm your direct Food Positives (internal, garden, village Hearth levels giving nil-6-12-18 ) you can not maintain or manually fill the Granary. Your garrison will drop as above. There is nothing to do except wait for Prosperity to come back down (and encourage that with Policies as said above) and you may be defending the place with your war party rather than a garrison in case of war.
 
Great info, thank you. I'll be looking into Policies now. So it seems like the goal is to cap Prosperity or start lowering it.
My major worry is Loyalty, as long as it does not go down and risk a rebellion, I don't mind making less money.

@Oltopeteeh can you share the link of the Mod allowing food donations if it's updated for 1.7.0/1.7.1? Thanks.
 
AngryPanCake said:
...can you share the link of the Mod allowing food donations if it's updated for 1.7.0/1.7.1?
Click to expand...
Mod (test build): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tdiq8jY1If2pxkDCr9liXx7atjZZq3v0/view?usp=sharing
Studio (source code): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Km8g4QyQqhePtfg3O56Td_wyWRahskev/view?usp=sharing

____
Example code:
____

buy_prosperity

Code: 
            campaignGameStarter.AddGameMenuOption("support_5", "support_buy_prosperity", "{=*}{SETTLEMENT} +1 ({PRICE}{GOLD_ICON})", new GameMenuOption.OnConditionDelegate(support_buy_prosperity_on_condition), delegate (MenuCallbackArgs x)
            {
                float base_price = 100;
                if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsTown) { base_price += (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Town.Prosperity - 2000) / 100 / 10; base_price -= (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Town.ProsperityChange * 1) / 10;
                } else if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsCastle) { base_price += (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Town.Prosperity - 2000) / 100 / 10; base_price -= (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Town.ProsperityChange * 1) / 10;
                } else if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsVillage) {base_price += (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Village.Hearth - 200) / 10 / 10; base_price -= (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Village.HearthChange * 1) / 10;
                }; if (base_price < 25) base_price = 25; base_price /= 100;
                int item_cost = 500; int item_amount = 1; float price = item_cost * item_amount * base_price * (100 + Hero.MainHero.Level) / 100;
                if (Hero.MainHero.Gold >= price) {
                    if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsTown || Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsCastle) { Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Prosperity += item_amount; }
                    else if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsVillage) { Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Village.Hearth += item_amount; if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Village.Hearth > 1200) Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Village.Hearth = 1200; };
                    if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.OwnerClan != Clan.PlayerClan)
                    {
                        int rel_amount = item_amount;
                        if (((IEnumerable<Hero>)Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Notables).Any<Hero>()) { ChangeRelationAction.ApplyPlayerRelation((Hero)TaleWorlds.Core.Extensions.GetRandomElement<Hero>(Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Notables), rel_amount, true, true); }
                        else if (((IEnumerable<Hero>)Settlement.CurrentSettlement.HeroesWithoutParty).Any<Hero>()) ChangeRelationAction.ApplyPlayerRelation((Hero)TaleWorlds.Core.Extensions.GetRandomElement<Hero>(Settlement.CurrentSettlement.HeroesWithoutParty), rel_amount, true, true);
                        else { Hero lord = Hero.FindAll((Hero tmp) => tmp.IsAlive).GetRandomElementInefficiently<Hero>(); ChangeRelationAction.ApplyPlayerRelation(lord, rel_amount, true, true); };
                    };
                    Hero.MainHero.AddSkillXp(DefaultSkills.Trade, item_cost * item_amount / 25); GiveGoldAction.ApplyForSettlementToCharacter(Settlement.CurrentSettlement, Hero.MainHero, -(int)price, false); GameMenu.SwitchToMenu("support_5"); };
            }, false, -1, false);

_____
sell_prosperity

Code: 
            campaignGameStarter.AddGameMenuOption("support_5", "support_sell_prosperity", "{=*}Prosperity -40 (+{SELL_PROSPERITY}m)", new GameMenuOption.OnConditionDelegate(support_sell_prosperity_on_condition), delegate (MenuCallbackArgs x)
            {
                int item_cost = 500; int item_amount = 40; int view_on = 0; if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsTown || Settlement.CurrentSettlement.IsCastle) if (Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Town.FoodChange <= -1) view_on = 1;
                float sell_prosperity = item_cost * item_amount * (100 + Hero.MainHero.Level) / 100 / 2;
                if (view_on == 1 && Settlement.CurrentSettlement.OwnerClan == Clan.PlayerClan) {Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Prosperity -= item_amount;
                int rel_amount = 1; int rel_rand = MBRandom.RandomInt(0, 100); if (rel_rand <= 10) {
                    if (((IEnumerable<Hero>)Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Notables).Any<Hero>()) { ChangeRelationAction.ApplyPlayerRelation((Hero)TaleWorlds.Core.Extensions.GetRandomElement<Hero>(Settlement.CurrentSettlement.Notables), -rel_amount, true, true); }
                    else if (((IEnumerable<Hero>)Settlement.CurrentSettlement.HeroesWithoutParty).Any<Hero>()) ChangeRelationAction.ApplyPlayerRelation((Hero)TaleWorlds.Core.Extensions.GetRandomElement<Hero>(Settlement.CurrentSettlement.HeroesWithoutParty), -rel_amount, true, true);
                    else { Hero lord = Hero.FindAll((Hero tmp) => tmp.IsAlive).GetRandomElementInefficiently<Hero>(); ChangeRelationAction.ApplyPlayerRelation(lord, -rel_amount, true, true); }; };
                Hero.MainHero.AddSkillXp(DefaultSkills.Roguery, item_cost * item_amount / 100); GiveGoldAction.ApplyForSettlementToCharacter(Settlement.CurrentSettlement, Hero.MainHero, (int)sell_prosperity, false); GameMenu.SwitchToMenu("support_5");
                };
            }, false, -1, false);
 
The average playtime of my games is 40~50 years.
I've yet to observe any kind of "problem."

Maybe it's a thing when people use mods to boost prosperity too much, or expect changes too fast, but in a normally-paced vanilla game without mods, prosperity and food balances out to a certain point, with occasional fluctuations that may momentarily increase or decrease the overall situation of the settlement.

Maybe if the simulation runs for even a longer span of time at utterly ideal conditions something abnormal may happen, but in a regular game of regular time span of 3~4 decades, the settlement grows up to the point which its surrounding villages can keep up in food production, which is +18 at over 600+ hearths, IIRC. At that point it stabilizes.

The concept of "prosperity" (and "hearths" as well) is basically the same thing as "population" and easier when understood that way. I suspect they call it "prosperity" because it gets weird with castles (since castles don't hold that many population). Therefore, all of the settlements in the game can increase in "prosperity" to a certain theoretical maximal point, dictated mostly by villages as a sustained source + fluctuating factors such as caravans.

So, if you're constantly facing starvation without outside factors (such as wars and destroyed villages), then the prosperity will naturally dip lower to adjust at the point where it can be sustained for extended periods of time.
 
@kweassa I believe that overlooks that Castles with 2 villages have a peak resting point of Prosperity of over 2k (uncapped) which is so high that no garrison can be maintained as Food (granary) parks at -0- (negative input if Loyalty, Policy or Governor add Prosperity) and as no food can be added to a Castle's granary, they collapse in sieges even with substantial militia. If you have contrary information to that, I'd appreciate seeing it detailed.
 
Villages, by the way, do not have the mechanics of their own food, and prosperity (hearths) grows without restrictions from within.
Militia = hearth / 10.
600 hearth = 60 militia, stable.

If we don't let the enemies plunder our villages, then we can increase at least 10k, at least 1005000++. And then there are really a lot of police, not every army can cope with such a village.
It is *not* limited.

And the castle - yes, a sore subject. In some places, even zero prosperity allows you to keep at least some kind of garrison. It's easier to give to clans and not worry about them, buggy places :smile:
 
ldgarrett said:
@kweassa I believe that overlooks that Castles with 2 villages have a peak resting point of Prosperity of over 2k (uncapped) which is so high that no garrison can be maintained as Food (granary) parks at -0- (negative input if Loyalty, Policy or Governor add Prosperity) and as no food can be added to a Castle's granary, they collapse in sieges even with substantial militia. If you have contrary information to that, I'd appreciate seeing it detailed.
Click to expand...

A castle that's over 2k in prosperity is itself an abnormal thing, imo.

Castles that serve as the frontline between two kingdoms for an extended period of time, will almost always suffer periodical damage to its prosperity whether be it from assaults, changing of hands, destruction of villages and etc, and therefore at the gross average such "frontline castles" usually stay around something like maybe 1200 props. at most.

OTOH if it's a castle that you've taken very early in the game, and as a result has had decades of peace benefiting from irrigation projects to boost villages that switch over to housing... then the chance of such a castle meeting an enemy army is also very low, since its most likely a castle way behind frontlines deep into the heart of your own territory.

Empirically speaking, towns average in around at 5~8k in normal gameplay, and castles almost never reach 2k in the first place, so I am wondering if such abnormal levels of prosperity as to "break the game" you're speaking of, is a result of using mods or cheats to propel them above normal growing pace and overall strat situation.
 
AngryPanCake said:
Great info, thank you. I'll be looking into Policies now. So it seems like the goal is to cap Prosperity or start lowering it.
My major worry is Loyalty, as long as it does not go down and risk a rebellion, I don't mind making less money.

@Oltopeteeh can you share the link of the Mod allowing food donations if it's updated for 1.7.0/1.7.1? Thanks.
Click to expand...
The most important is to keep your bound Villages in good order i.e. not raided.

Bigger villages (more Hearths) produce more stuff, which for a Food based village means more Food. Granted I believe even non-Food based villages provide some Food? IDK Fiefs without a Food based village I imagine are quite difficult to get Prosperous.

I had an issue for some time with the town of Jamalrys being "too prosperous" and effectively starving constantly. The problem was really that my villages would just get raided every so often, so that's basically what kept me in such a bad starving loop. My Town could never really stock pile a decent amount of Food which is what you need for lasting Prosperity.

Looters/Brigands can also create a lot of problems if the bands are big enough, by keeping villagers from reaching their respective Town. Again more Hearths a village has, the bigger the villager parties will be i.e. less likely to be stopped by Looters. Believe me that Looters/Brigands can absolutely cripple Town economies if they disrupt villagers long enough.

Prosperity is nice, but you're only going to get it high if your Fief is basically at peace/safe.

Loyalty is what matters most, low Loyalty is what leads to Rebellions, though you can avoid this by keeping a Garrison that is stronger/bigger then milita. Yeah Prosperity is nice since it unlocks some items and I think it increases Tax revenue? But Loyalty is key to fiefs.

This should be your priority:
1. Loyalty (effects almost all other stats, project speeds, etc.) get this to 50 and make sure it holds, ultimately want 100 if possible
2. Security effectively helps keep Loyalty up, better Troops/more Troops helps
3. Food keeps Loyalty up and spare Food will go long ways to boosting Prosperity (again more bound villages helps)
4. Prosperity more Tax money is the biggest benefit

Jamalrys really isn't a great fief since only 2 villages, but with enough food/time you can get there. Obviously my garrison is stupidly large, this is the 1 fief I didn't want to risk losing, but I don't need +12 Security at this point. Also smaller garrison eats less food. Castles are the best place to keep spare Troops due to wage reduction.
NHoKdSD.png


Also bear in mind Loyalty and Security always try to reach an equilibrium of 50, helpful when low, but makes it a bit harder to keep maxed.

These videos by strat are also really good on fief management:

 
kweassa said:
Empirically speaking, towns average in around at 5~8k in normal gameplay, and castles almost never reach 2k in the first place, so I am wondering if such abnormal levels of prosperity as to "break the game" you're speaking of, is a result of using mods or cheats to propel them above normal growing pace and overall strat situation.
Click to expand...
no. it's the mathematical end state, tested in unmodded play repeatedly during my thousands (not joking) hours of play mostly focused on analysis of the mid and late game strategic layer. It is a condition often met by a player when a castle is secured early enough to have 800-1,000 game days of growth, and can be occasionally reached by AI fiefholders in the post game day 2,000 period of dynastic play. I happen to have -just this week- seen Hongard castle in the "rear area" of a Vlandia that had not seen war crest Prosperity 2.2k in the hands of an AI at game day ~2,500.
**But that's discussing case, not the inquiry.**

You are correct in a number of your observed features of actual gameplay, but my question remains: If you have seen a condition where a Castle at its natural (mathematical) full development undamaged by war does not deathspiral its Granary and then its capacity to maintain any Garrison at all, could you please show me?
 
ldgarrett said:
no. it's the mathematical end state, tested in unmodded play repeatedly during my thousands (not joking) hours of play mostly focused on analysis of the mid and late game strategic layer. It is a condition often met by a player when a castle is secured early enough to have 800-1,000 game days of growth, and can be occasionally reached by AI fiefholders in the post game day 2,000 period of dynastic play. I happen to have -just this week- seen Hongard castle in the "rear area" of a Vlandia that had not seen war crest Prosperity 2.2k in the hands of an AI at game day ~2,500.
**But that's discussing case, not the inquiry.**

You are correct in a number of your observed features of actual gameplay, but my question remains: If you have seen a condition where a Castle at its natural (mathematical) full development undamaged by war does not deathspiral its Granary and then its capacity to maintain any Garrison at all, could you please show me?
Click to expand...

Looking up the records for two recent gameplays with both over 30 years of gameplay, game 1 (34 years) has 6 out 58 castles (10.3%) at over 2k prosperity, game 2 (31 years) has 2 out of 58 (3.4%). All of them are stabilized at around 100~130 garrison, most of them have food stocks at 0, but loyalty and security all remain stable with negative effects counteracted through governor effects, and those are impacted by the food have their prosperity in slow rate of decline without any kind of visible signs of catastrophic failure.

So where's this "death spiral" supposed to be at, again? I don't see it anywhere at least in my games.
 
That's what I was hoping you'd find! As their garrisons -did not- disappear from the zero food point of stability, then you've added some well documented information to what I have. Thank you for going to the trouble of looking.

Edit: and sure enough, when I just created an artificial situation in version e1.7.1 to mimic just that (above), there was in fact -no- loss of garrison directly caused by Food being zero and Food Input being negative from Prosperity. They did not even become wounded.
 
Last edited:
kweassa said:
Looking up the records for two recent gameplays with both over 30 years of gameplay, game 1 (34 years) has 6 out 58 castles (10.3%) at over 2k prosperity, game 2 (31 years) has 2 out of 58 (3.4%). All of them are stabilized at around 100~130 garrison, most of them have food stocks at 0, but loyalty and security all remain stable with negative effects counteracted through governor effects, and those are impacted by the food have their prosperity in slow rate of decline without any kind of visible signs of catastrophic failure.

So where's this "death spiral" supposed to be at, again? I don't see it anywhere at least in my games.
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm not sure why people are getting bent out of shape about this.

I think people are failing to realize there's supposed to be an equilibrium to all Fief stats. You're not supposed to be able to achieve unlimited Prosperity or max Loyalty or max Security. Even if you do reach high Prosperity it will eventually start to drop or peak at some point. I've only got one 2K+ Prosperity Castle and it does not seem to be dying in my 40 in-game year playthrough.

YmNyoEB.png


It's not like Starvation alone is going to lead Rebellions. You only get Rebellions if there are serious Cultural/Villages issues (i.e. Fief is really messed up), and that's just with Towns really anyways.

There probably was an issue where due to Food Shortages, Garrisons would get reduced to 0, but I think that's been fixed, if it ever was an issue. (pretty sure Garrisons are entirely income based now anyways) It does seem Garrisons do stockpile food. I noticed this while trying to starve out a Castle during a siege. Castle went to 0 Food; and Militia of course dropped like flies. But the Garrison (100 or so) was able to hang in there, presumably because the inside production was enough to keep them fed? And they had been stockpiling food?

Are Food Shortages the best way to control/cap Prosperity? Probably not, but it's not exactly broken either. I mean the Garrison above would probably crumble quickly, but who cares?
 
Hey, right it's annoying : I don't build any longer either the aqueducs nor the militia training ground to avoid prosperity penalty and too many miltia in the towns... doesn't always work very well either. Plus when armies pass in your town they sometimes stupidly buy too much food regardless of the starvation in the town... Better would be a way to provide supplies to both towns and castles.
 
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