Pros & Cons

[Northcott]

(Edit: Just in case the devs do peek at this; later on in this thread, at the suggestion of others, I discovered that it was the windowed mode, perhaps combined with some combination of issue with Wacom drivers, that was making the controls react in such a screwy way. Once I started playing full screen, and rebooted to make sure that the Wacom wasn't in use even to boot the game up, the problems with the controls seemed to disappear.)

I don't know whether the devs are going to see this, but as the forums are linked to from the official site, it's my hope that they will.  I realize that my opinions here are unlikely to be shared with a majority of the members of this board, who are fans of this game. I ask your indulgence. What I say isn't intended out of spite, but out of respect. I respect the effort that's gone into creating a very cool and interesting product, but in the end it failed to do little more than frustrate me.  I think my experience is likely to be typical of more 'casual' gamers who would otherwise have appreciated the product.

Pros

• Setting: there's a lot of 'character' to the setting itself. Wonderfully atmospheric, and the low to no fantasy route is horribly under-used. The more realistic medieval atmosphere was great to see.
• Character generation: the stats are kept nice and simple, the relevance of abilities is explained on a mouse-over, and it's all made very smooth and seamless. Makes it easy for people to just step into the game. Fantastic.
• Customization: The characters have an absolutely fantastic range of appearances. The ability to customize the character to that degree was a very nice touch, I thought.
• Concept of execution: The idea of using the keyboard to move and using the mouse to swing a sword? I loved it. The application of the idea, however, goes into my "cons" list.
• Potential for expansion: The depth of character, setting, ability to travel, amass NPC allies, economic scale... so many things make this product potentially wonderful for expanding into other ideas, settings, etc. The robust presence of the mod community speaks volumes about how inspiring this game can be.
• Mod community.  Any company wise enough to not merely tolerates, but who encourages a healthy mod community to grow their game -- that gets two thumbs up, in my book.

Cons

• Pet peeve: If you set up a starting area where characters can practice fundamental skills in dealing with the very complex combat system of the game (the trainer where you start out)... in the name of all that's sane, do not make that a place where they can be set upon by a party of 15 pirating seafarers (inland?!?), have it impossible to retreat/flee from, and ends up with the new character getting dragged all over Hell's creation and robbed blind before finally escaping months later.  It's extremely discouraging to not only have to wrestle with a game's controls, but to have the game itself screw the character over before they can step past the training area.
• The game's controls: This is why I won't be playing Mount & Blade further, and why I found it so very, very disappointing. It seemed a fantastic idea that I was very excited about. I gave it a couple days of playing through the tutorials and training area to try and get the hang of it... but it's just too much of a pain in the rear to bother further with.
  
  The concept is great. The execution was very disappointing.  A character's footwork is limited to the four cardinal directions, so they can't even rotate in place -- the natural reaction when a single opponent is trying to flank you. It's how dominating boxers hold the centre of the ring before driving their foes back on the ropes.  Worse, you can look around, but the same function that lets you look around (mouse) is the same thing that swings your sword. So as you fight the view becomes increasingly skewed... and there's no key or command to re-centre, which should be the most natural thing in the world. In a fight, you face what you're fighting. Having to spend time jiggling the mouse around just to get a view of what the character's seeing again was very distracting and quite irritating in the action sequences.
  
  Then there's the effect that has on horseback.  That in particular was irksome. The character's spine is so flexible that he can be looking back over the horse's rump, but yet turning around to look forward and trying to re-centre the pointer/icon is a chore of swinging the mouse around the screen that wastes precious seconds in a fast-paced situation.
  
  What had the potential to be wonderfully immersive has instead (and I realize there are many here who would disagree with me) proven to be an unnecessary distraction. When I manage to put aside an hour or two from a busy life to relax, I don't want to have to spend that trying to figure out the oddities of a game's controls just to be able to enjoy the very root basics of that game -- I want to play and have fun.  Where the game could have been immersive and casual, it's instead time-intensive to learn, demanding that the player learn how to work the controls of the game rather than just sitting down and playing it , experiencing the story and the world that's waiting to unfold. Some people really like that challenge. Most just want to play.
  
  This could have been ameliorated greatly by limiting how far the camera can swing around. Having the character staring out the back of his head doesn't really serve the purpose of immersing people in the story.  Having the character be able to accomplish basic footwork, such as pivoting on a heel, makes more sense than having a camera that swings wildly all over the place: wasd are the keys that allow characters to shuffle forward, back, and side-to-side... why not q and e to pivot left and right? You've already got the footwork set in those four keys, why not make it six (taking advantage of natural reach), instead of linking it to a combination of mouse use and keyboard? It would leave foot combat feeling more naturalistic, and free up mouse use.
  
  Finally...  this game could benefit immensely from a simple 'centre' command or function. C (replacing the current function), shift + c... whatever. Something that snaps the point of view immediately back to right in front of the character, staring straight out. The camera jostles all over the place whenever riding horse or fighting. Sure, you can practice the controls until that's no longer a pain... but again, for myself, I'd rather have just been able to play the game rather than having to learn the nuances of controlling it.

I think the ideas behind the game are fantastic.  I wish all the best to the people who produced it, and hope that they find success with their efforts. There's a great community backing it, who obviously have far less issue with the controls than I do, but I firmly believe that the current state of things will act as an impediment to the potential growth of the game's fanbase. I've no idea if my suggestions will be seen, or if they'll be found to have any value, but I hope the feedback has at least proven useful.

Thanks for your time, and best of luck with your product.

 

[captain lust]

I think getting your ass kicked, at the start of the game, is part of the experience.

The controls come with practice. The more you play, the more subtle the mouse movements to determine attack direction become.

Although, in all honesty, it's quite embarrassing that you can't get the controls sorted.

The idea is to re-centre your view as the sword is swung. (if that helps).

 

[Magorian Aximand]

To be entirely honest, I am a casual gamer. I don't spend all that much time playing anything. I had issues with the controls for about a day or so, but they were not difficult to refine. Frankly, I think it is one of the most intuitive combat systems I have ever used, of any kind. Perhaps you could post some videos of your playing so we could give some more complete ideas to help your form? I would hate for you to miss out on this fantastic game. I would try to just help in this post, but I've never had centering issues, so I'm not sure how to fix the problem without seeing it.

 

[RalliX]

I agree with Magorian, as soon as I began the demo I was hooked.
I have played many,many,many games, and I would guess I'm used to learning the controls of any game.

The first time I "really" fought enemies was not at the tutorial, but in the game.
Just a regular band of looters. I still wasn't able to control my horse, and timing well.
But, after 5 minutes I was able to finish them off. In any game, you must practice to be good at it.

You must practice to be good at anything, and having knowledge about the game also helps.
________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think they could have made a better combat system.

 

[Lord Burgess1]

The combat system is complicated at first yes, but has a quick learning curve, then it becomes very easy to use and makes it far advanced to other games of this genre

You can run faster than the group of looters you encounter at first, also if you play the tutorial you should have no problem, it teaches you how to ride a horse, use a bow, 2h sword and a sword and sheild.

 

[Josef_the_Pretender]

That's an interesting critique, Northcott. I agree that the beginning of the game can be very challenging, and there's nothing to help you figure out that you must pick your battles carefully, except from painful experiences like getting your ass kicked by Sea Raiders. Later, you will see that there are lots mechanisms you can use to avoid large groups chasing you down (eg increasing your Pathfinding skill speeds you up when travelling), but initially you should choose small groups of looters to practice on. And recruit a few peasants to help you out - you should be able to afford a couple.

I myself am a very casual gamer (or was before I stumbled across M&B), and have very little hand-eye coordination, and I was able to get to grips with this game fairly quickly. Start off by using horseback combat only, and then it's just a matter of timing - how hard is it to just ride past someone and slash at their throat?

You can also go the route of commanding your recruits in battle, if you feel that you want to stay out of the combat for a while and be a general rather than a fighter, though the sheer joy of fighting will soon make you abandon that except in the biggest battles.

Later on, you can concentrate on foot-based combat.

Honestly, you should give it another go. Never mind about the training ground - find 5 looters and work on taking them out.

Seriously, there's so much to this game that it would be a shame to give it up.

 

[Night Ninja]

Wasn't pivoting accomplished with the mouse? 

 

[Polcherrr]

don't feel bad i thought i was pro when i first played....then i tried to fight 6 river pirates than im like no fair how did you kill my guys.....once you use a cheat code on the game its hard to stop...please help me im a addict..

 

[Sporky]

I find the combat system quite easily to figure out after a bit. It just takes a bit of time. This game isn't the hardest in the world. It just takes time and experience.

 

[Captain Pyjama Shark]

You can look about you with the little squiqqly key. (~)

 

[Northcott]

Got to say; I'm impressed by the general timbre of responses.  It seems that M&B is not only a breed apart in concept, but has attracted a very grounded fan base. Again, it wasn't my intent to slam, but to provide full and adequate feedback. It's something that small companies have trouble getting, and one of the things they need most as they don't have access to more expensive market research methods. Most people will walk away from a product in silence, and I know of at least one other person who shares my opinion of M&B -- so I figured I'd give at least oen voice to respond to.  From what I read of the production of M&B, it required some real tenacity and vision.  I have a huge amount of respect for that.

That's an interesting critique, Northcott. I agree that the beginning of the game can be very challenging, and there's nothing to help you figure out that you must pick your battles carefully, except from painful experiences like getting your ass kicked by Sea Raiders. Later, you will see that there are lots mechanisms you can use to avoid large groups chasing you down (eg increasing your Pathfinding skill speeds you up when travelling), but initially you should choose small groups of looters to practice on. And recruit a few peasants to help you out - you should be able to afford a couple.

Oh, heck. I figured that out all by myself just from the general theme and how I felt about the combat system. Trust me, I didn't pick that battle. I went to click on the trainer and got jumped by 15 seamen (insert tasteless jokes here!).  They weren't on horseback, I was. I could see them coming from well off. Tried firing a few bolts, then figured I'd get out of dodge before they got to me, turned around and rode off. Got a screen offering the option to retreat -- chose discretion as the better part of valour. And as soon as I clicked that... the screen that told me I was getting jumped by seamen popped back up. Wash, rinse, repeat.  The game gave me no choice about it.

I myself am a very casual gamer (or was before I stumbled across M&B), and have very little hand-eye coordination, and I was able to get to grips with this game fairly quickly. Start off by using horseback combat only, and then it's just a matter of timing - how hard is it to just ride past someone and slash at their throat?

Heh. It was the riding that I found particularly jarring, as the character's spine seemed to have no limits. Turning to go over a hill and suddenly staring over the backside of the horse was a weird moment.   I was never able to get the hang of hitting things with sword from horseback -- I'd just watch the sword whiff through targets harmlessly.  Now combat on foot? That I breezed through, in spite of my dislike for how the camera tracks.  I suppose I should have clarified -- it's not that I wasn't able to get the hang of it.  It's just that if I'm sitting down to play a game for the purpose of seeing this grand creation... then that's why I'm playing it. Not to try and figure out the oddities of why my character's attention drifts (sometimes wildly) whenever he swings his sword, and rotating the mouse around the screen to try and re-centre his vision.

Though yeah, I did hate it whenever the bearded champion in the training area would flank me and pull a sudden turn to beat on me from behind.  Not fast enough to run away from him (even with 2 points in the relevant skill) and couldn't turn around and centre the camera again before three or four shots had landed.  Irksome, but that's the price of being a noob. 

Seriously, there's so much to this game that it would be a shame to give it up.

I love the general theme enough that chances are I'll end up giving it another go some time.  I was just hoping that something I said might have proven of value to the guys who put their time into developing this thing.  Something as simple as changing C or X to "centre camera" would change the game play experience hugely. Allowing Q or E to rotate the character, pivoting in place, adds a new dimension to footwork. Those were just off the top of my head. I'm sure people can think of other possibilities.

 

[Archonsod]

You might want to try switching to first person view. At least until you get use to the camera.

 

[Northcott]

The combat system is complicated at first yes, but has a quick learning curve, then it becomes very easy to use and makes it far advanced to other games of this genre

You can run faster than the group of looters you encounter at first, also if you play the tutorial you should have no problem, it teaches you how to ride a horse, use a bow, 2h sword and a sword and sheild.

Couldn't outrun them, even though they were on foot and I was on horse. Go figure. Game wouldn't allow it. Perpetually get brought back to a "fight or surrender" screen. It got tedious after awhile, so I gave up trying to flee.  Also played the tutorial before going into the game and trying the training area.

 

[Orion]

Problems with recentering the view?

What?

How is that possible? Last time I checked, if you were moving and you moved the mouse, your character turned in that direction. There's no need to pivot in place, especially since you can look around with your mouse, and if the need to turn arises, you can just tap one of your WASD keys. It should turn your character in the direction you're looking. It does for me, anyways. I could only see a stationary pivot being usefull if you didn't have a mouse.

I've never had a problem with the controls, and I don't bother playing in first person (I find archery is easier for me in third, and the situational awareness is crucial in melee) so I never end up turning my head all the way around on horesback (although I'm very aware of such a thing, and I believe it stops turning once you've gotten to 359 degrees so you must go all the way back in the opposite direction). Also, if I remember correctly, when looking around in third person your head doesn't rotate, so there's no creepy Exorcist moment on horseback.

 

[SPD_Phoenix]

Pathfinding skill will boost your world map speed. Put at least 1 point when creating new character. Light inventory. Get spare horse if you carry more than 10 items in your inventory. Speed of 7-8 will be fine as long as you are not in Khergit territory.

Training ground: IIRC, you will be forced to rest there after 3 practices or so. Outlaws/enemy can attack you whenever you rest in the open. So, do 2 practices, get out, get back in do more practices. Training ground practice is more of getting use to the control and familiarize with weapons. I will suggest to do real combat practice at the arena (not the tournament).

Control: the control is very similar to most of the FPS I've played (ASWD movement, mouse look/attack direction/move direction, ~ for free look). So, it wasn't a challenge for me to learn. I actually like the simplicity but fairly effective control of M&B.

 

[Northcott]

Problems with recentering the view?

What?

How is that possible? Last time I checked, if you were moving and you moved the mouse, your character turned in that direction. There's no need to pivot in place, especially since you can look around with your mouse, and if the need to turn arises, you can just tap one of your WASD keys. It should turn your character in the direction you're looking. It does for me, anyways. I could only see a stationary pivot being usefull if you didn't have a mouse.

I've never had a problem with the controls, and I don't bother playing in first person (I find archery is easier for me in third, and the situational awareness is crucial in melee) so I never end up turning my head all the way around on horesback (although I'm very aware of such a thing, and I believe it stops turning once you've gotten to 359 degrees so you must go all the way back in the opposite direction). Also, if I remember correctly, when looking around in third person your head doesn't rotate, so there's no creepy Exorcist moment on horseback.

Innnnnnteresting.

If I'm moving and I move the mouse... the character doesn't turn in that direction.  In fact, when I was playing around with training area sparring earlier today, the character took a smack to the head, got knocked down in the middle of throwing a blow, and by the time he got back up the camera was so off-whack with what was happening on the screen that I was getting a side view of the character -- save that he was on the far right, half off the edge of the screen.  It's not the first time that kind of thing's happened before.

The utility of pivoting remains, however. When foes are trying to flank you, your character's facing is paramount. Rather than having to roll-roll-roll the mouse to the right of the screen to get it to move, and then wiggle it around for a few seconds to try and get it back to the point where the mouse pointer is roughly approximate to where the character is aiming (the two end up horridly disjointed for me), it'd be much easier to tap "e", have the character shift to the right and be in place to hit.

Though from what you describe, I almost think something went wonky with my install.  Normally I use a Wacom stylus tablet instead of a mouse, being an illustrator by trade.  I tried using that with the game initially, and the effect was absolutely insane -- the slightest motion on the Wacom caused M&B's mouse-tracking to go hyper.  Until now I'd presumed that stopped when I stopped using the Wacom, but now I'm wondering if it could have had a longer-term effect.

Edit: Yah. Just tried it again on a lark. Restarted a character, went to the trainer to try scrapping with a novice fighter, and got KO'ed because when he ran in a circle around me, in simply trying to pivot/turn around, the camera got so fubar that the character wasn't even on the screen anymore. In trying to re-oriented it, the game screen minimized -- and while it was minimized, apparently my character continued to get the crap kicked out of him.

Edit 2: For additional fun, trying yet again, not only did the camera angle swerve to a bird's eye view while simply moving the mouse to the side to try and turn around, but when clicking to try and block instead of blocking it cycled through the other windows open in the background, so that I was staring at "My Computer" files while the character got the tar kicked out of him.

Unless this kind of thing is common, I may try a re-install.

 

[Northcott]

To be entirely honest, I am a casual gamer. I don't spend all that much time playing anything. I had issues with the controls for about a day or so, but they were not difficult to refine. Frankly, I think it is one of the most intuitive combat systems I have ever used, of any kind. Perhaps you could post some videos of your playing so we could give some more complete ideas to help your form? I would hate for you to miss out on this fantastic game. I would try to just help in this post, but I've never had centering issues, so I'm not sure how to fix the problem without seeing it.

I've been thinking about this offer.  If there's a simple way to post a video, I'd be glad to. I don't suppose there's some function in game that'll capture a scene? If not, it's probably not worth the effort. I've been practicing with the game since my last edits, and the results really haven't been any better.  Using both polearms and one-handed weapon on the mounted combat training course, I've yet to get better than "the training didn't go very well" as a message. The combination of swinging and trying to turn and refocus the camera sends it spinning every time. I get cued to dismount pretty regularly.

I tried toggling 'r' to change the POV, but while I find that much easier to navigate, I can't hit diddly from horseback in that view... not that I'm doing aces with the other.  Silly, really. I dropped in to make what I hoped would be a helpful critique, and ended up wasting another four hours fruitlessly watching the screen spin as I gave this game another shot.

 

[SPD_Phoenix]

Are you playing in window mode?

There is no way the camera spin like that in full screen. Unless, there is something seriously wrong with your control input (mouse). However, camera will spin out of control sometimes in window mode.

 

[Northcott]

Yep. Window mode.

Edit: Wow. Hours of practice, and I'm actually doing worse than I was. Now down to "that didn't go well at all".  I'm presuming it didn't take 20+ hours of play for the rest of you to be able to complete one of the mounted combat training courses?

 

[Ruthven]

If you're playing the game in windowed mode your mouse is probably just going off the side of the screen, where it doesn't affect the game. That happens to me too when I leave Edit Mode on and fight a battle. Just don't play it windowed.