Proposed new rules and discussion about day's topics.

[Astinus]

隐藏

These rules are overly harsh. They are strict to the point that they go beyond the spirit in which they were made and punish, severely, behavior that would, were it not for the bureaucracy, be considered completely normal.

The point of this official roster is not to punish people for making administrative errors. Whether this error is caused by carelessness or by poor explanation is besides the point.  The rules are put in place to create a fair game, a game where people cannot cheat by having others impersonate their players, where players cannot cheat clans by playing for more than one, the rules are meant to be here to punish the dishonest not to punish those who failed to tick the correct administrative boxes.

In this particular case, the default win awarded is by far less fair than the result of the match proper. The small error of using a player who had not been correctly registered should not mean ultimate victory (and 20-0 is ultimate) for the "aggrieved" party. This player has been in the 22nd for over a year and a half, there is no question of the authenticity of his membership within the clan. Nor was there any discrepancies with regards to his Warband key which is inside the ENL system in the form of a server log. These facts prove that there is no underhanded action here, no conspiracy, no cheating. The only "crime" here is a registration that was only half carried out, an honest mistake, a registration that was believed to have been correctly carried out, not an act made with contempt for the rules. This specific situation I might add also has no precedent, unlike other forfeit wins Nico's Warband key was in fact in the ENL system, and was identical to the one he used in the match. With no clear precedent there is no argument for the case that it is only fair to punish in this situation as others were punished. This situation is different, this is why Sad and myself feel we have been wronged on some level.

However, we will not be the only people who will be wronged if this state of affairs continues. When people put the mindless conformity with the rules above the spirit within which the rules were made the rules no longer serve their purpose. They become an issue of their own. It is not about whether or not you are cheating or conspiring to gain some advantage but about jumping through these artificial hoops of bureaucracy. Where the rules no longer punish cheaters and promote fairness but are perverted to do the very opposite.

Rules serve justice, justice does not serve rules. Rules should be used with the spirit within which they were made not abused and exploited to the letter. Some of the greatest injustices in legal history occurred because of over vigilant use of the "letter of the law". Such perversion of justice should in my opinion be avoided at all costs. I do not post this to change the result of this match but in the hope that maybe change can be achieved and issues such as these can be avoided in the future.

---

Also I would like to apolagise on behalf of some of my clan members. I fear they may have made some comments that when they have cooled down they may regret. However I hope you can understand there was a fair amount of emotion unleashed upon hearing about this, not least when provoked by comments made by some people I shall not deign to mention.

**** happens and that is exactly what this is.

This should have been the first 22nd post about the whole question, it's polite enough to lead to some mature and civil discussion instead of the previous "RN noobs cowards" rage.

I can see your points Plazek and I can agree with most of them, but it makes no senso to change thing retrospective. Rules were around since months and I can't beleive no one from 22nd took the 1 minute of time that checking roster takes. For such a small error the punishment is too harsh and we can talk about it, perhaps as Archer said you should get autodefeat only in the rounds Nico played or even replay those rounds if RN agree and after your mates apologize fom the rage and the bull****s of the other thread.

It seems you are forgetting that the ones wrong are you, it was your job to check roster since you can expect that in the flow of registration someone could be not accounted. You should have come here humbly and full of apologize with kind request to RN to replay the rounds Nico played, not starting a flame war against RN and Lust

 

[Sarosu]

http://22ndbattalion.xippy.org/index.php?page=13&CatID=41326&PostID=207376

You can think I am being unwisely arrogant all you wish. We have rules and they will be enforced

Great quote from plazek btw.




juuuuust saying. Sure, justice might excist, but does 22nd know what it is? I THINK NOT


BUUUUURN THA WITCHES!

 

[Lord Willy]

Yes I haven't said that I wasn't aware of it

You just said it actually

"nor was I aware that there were forfeits being given until someone mentioned about those during the thread today"

and I also quoted myself (the same post) that we have indeed obeyd the rules and added everyone that needs to be added into the roster! Nico signed before the thread was made and the new rules about substitutions, thus, no need to add him as he was on the roster. That's what I've been saying the whole time. Also lust edited the OP of this certain thread he keeps reminding me about so there's no evidence for what he keeps saying as he updated the OP with the new rules about it.

But on each match thread it say , "Make sure you verify your roster, before each match. No sympathy will be given, for accidental mistakes."

you didnt look at it , so that was your mistake , plus as it say "No sympathy will be given, for accidental mistakes" So i think even if it might be unfair you should just accept it  , as it is also your error . You can of course blame the rule or express your negative opinions on it  even if you agreed on it before , but  I dont see why the result of this match should be changed.

 

[Morii]

Not to argue over it, but default wins and losses are quite common in competitive gaming.

Hell, in CPL, CAL or TWL for BF2 you risked being outright disqualified for roster violations. At the very least you would fall completely in ranking(as in bottom of the ladder or relegation).

This was not an attempt to ruin competition but simply to ensure that teams were correct.

Those leagues were if anything even more competitive than Warband and whilst harsh they ran very smoothly in comparison.


If Warband is to become a successful competitive game, then rules must exist and be consistently enforced, even if on occasion they disrupt a good match or so forth.

In the past as a rather tight nit community we could rely on honesty and simple discussion, but if the competitive scene expands this becomes unmanageable.



Any time rules must be the deciding factor it is a tragedy, however, it is also a necessity.

Gimme some of that vodka truthpotion! You, sir, make sense.

 

[sadnhappy]

Yes I haven't said that I wasn't aware of it

You just say it actually

"nor was I aware that there were forfeits being given until someone mentioned about those during the thread today"

No no, two different things here Willy You got it wrong.

The line of "Yes I haven't said that I wasn't aware of it" was about the substitution rules after 18th/20th. I did know about it, obeyed the rules 100%, hence I replied on the thread normally on the 27th (IIRC) and added the people I mentioned in my post, such as Crazy Archer. Since Nico registered before the new rule was made, no reply to the substitution thread was needed.

The line of "nor was I aware that there were forfeits being given until someone mentioned about those during the thread today" was about the fact that I acknowledged only today that in Div C and Div B clans have had forfeit match endings. That those forfeits actually took place (which I weren't aware of before today), I'm not saying I didn't know about the strict forfeit rule since I did read it on the new thread on the 18th/20th date. I kept updating our roster, added the people that needed to be added. Still I think this is turning to 22nd vs. the world which misses the point completely.

E: messed up quote tags but hopefully you get the idea which lines are mine and which are Willy's.

 

[killer-blead]

@Sarosu keep those silly drama history out of this thread. The lame "22nd vs Einherjar&Shieldings" drama is from ages ago and long time solved. It's not worth discussing or being used as "evidence" against the 22nd as is has no valeau.

Edit:
If you see anything wrong with my post it's because my spellcheck broke. Damn Explorer 9.

 

[Master OF Swords]

http://22ndbattalion.xippy.org/index.php?page=13&CatID=41326&PostID=207376

You can think I am being unwisely arrogant all you wish. We have rules and they will be enforced

Great quote from plazek btw.




juuuuust saying. Sure, justice might excist, but does 22nd know what it is? I THINK NOT


BUUUUURN THA WITCHES!

What does some random drama between 22nd and Einherjar/shielding have todo with anyhing relevant here?

 

[Sarosu]

You are right. Double-standards are awesome.

 

[killer-blead]

I have no idea what Sarosu's problem is but I propose that we just ignore it and move on.

 

[Plazek]

Harkon

隐藏

Rules are fine, and I'll be pretty pissed if stuff wasn't changed before and it will be now because of the 22nd being too sloppy at managing their roster.

Suck it up like other clans, you signed to this league under set rules. I can't even imagine how you can try to call yourselves competitive if you want to change the rules of a formal league mid way through, nobody does that crap.

Insults are irrelevant to the issue at hand. 22nd is not asking for immediate rule changes, only suggesting that some rules might not be perfect and could use some alteration in the next session. However you opinion on this subject is actually at odds with the reality of the league. Exceptions and rule changes have been made on this very issue.

Willy

隐藏

There is nothing in my post that says the rules should be changed "because 22nd says so".
I find it unlikely that the rules are perfect and will be subject to no further changes in the long future that this league will surely endure.

I see , tough , honestly is useless to say this now ... it should have  been said before , when we all agreed to this rules , or at least when  there was the precedent episodes similar to this ( DR , 30A etc ) , saying this now put you or might put you (22nd) in a bad lights as people could think , "yes they are saying  this now only because they are whining for the loss"etc...

When the updates are just made and placed on the different threads practically as the tournament is on-going this makes it rather difficult unfortunately.
I know what it looks like, you will just have to believe that we believe its unfair to all, not just us.

Even if i found hard to believe that none of your clans was aware of it ,  your clan agreed anyway on it by  entering on the tournament and so accepting the rules .

@ Sadnhappy , honestly i found hard to believe this too ,  as show this post after the REF match

ALSO! Tonight at match against REF Whitestrake and Crazy Archer were at ENL Germany #2 server but of course didn't participate in the match so you have their ID's on those server logs

It looks like you are  aware  that there is a consequence , as you bold it , and as you say"ALSO" on capital letters,  and as you say it in general  after the REF match .

It seems you are somewhat spotty on Sadnhappy's account. By Sad's account he believed these substitution rules came into action on the 18th when the current thread (the only place that has this information) was made. Clearly he did not check the forum properly for a few days and missed the initial announcement among the myriad of edits and falsely assumed all ENL server registrations were being handled as they were previously up until that point.

Of course, this is all irrelevant to this topic. Which is meant to be about these particular rules, not this particular incident.

Maynd

隐藏

This situation its pretty simple.
22nd didn't checked the roster thread like they should, otherwise they would notice a player missing, in this case 22nd leaders failed to do a simple task and their whole clan suffered.
This so called "honest mistake" also happened to other clan (name doesn't matter) and the treatment was the same, and they disputed Lust decision also.
This rules are just fine, most of the clans from ENL don't seem to have any problem with it and everything runs smooth.
Also, just the fact that Sad didn't notice that this situation also happened to other clans, and claimed that 22nd was the only clan being punished, denotes some lack of interest and awareness for the ENL and the community.
I don't see any need regarding changing this roster rule.

Best Regards

Correct Sad did not look at the roster as he should have he assumed instead that as Nico had performed the task he believed to be required that, like all other 22nd players who had registered at that time. Of course they do say "assumption is the mother of all **** ups". However this and your opinion  and implication whatever it is regarding our "Interest in the community" is also irrelevant to this thread.

However you comment with regards to the rules being fine because "everything runs smooth" does not seem to be perfectly true. As far as I am aware so far these rules are the ones that have had the most issues, with a whole topic posted by Lust highlighting the problems and saying finally there will be no more exceptions. In my opinion this suggests that far from running smoothly there were in fact some significant issues regarding these particular rules.

It is also a rather simple way of looking at things, I think there is a lot more to a rule and whether or not it is good and fair than whether or not it works smoothly. There are a great number of ways in which you can look at it, though I shall not go into them as I already have in my previous post.

Oh and thanks for actually reading my post Astinus and contributing some relevant debate. I agree there is no sense in changing the rules retrospectively. These are things in my opinion to be considered for the future.

PS

Sarosu there is a big difference between an admin error and a group of people coming onto to someones server and using the kick and ban polls to torment and bully a player incessantly. Maybe you should get on topic, this rubbish is nothing none of us want to talk about.

And thanks Blead I agree.

 

[Maynd]

I have no idea what Sarosu's problem is but I propose that we just ignore it and move on.

+1

 

[Godnoken]

I think the rules are fine as they are. The biggest breach of sportsmanship in my eyes is a clan that seeks preferential treatment when they themselves get the rules applied to them.

Furthermore I dont see how the league is in any way tarnished by this. If a clan breaks any of the beforehand agreed upon rules they simply have to suck it up and continue.

I think the worst thing that can happen is if the rules are changed simply because 22nd started to complain when the rules were a disadvantage to them. That would send a completely wrong signal to all other clans.

Mordgrimm, please pursue your vengeance over the 22nd - Einherjar/Shieldings drama elsewhere.
There are no claims of 22nd wanting special treatment, but complaints over a rulesystem, that is equal for everyone.
If you'd like to further voice your anger over 22nd, feel free to do so over steam.
That way, you can even do it in your native language.

@Lust.
Of course we complain about now that is hits us, just like any other group would.

I couldn't be arsed to read all these pages to really have any idea if you tried to get some special treatment in this so I have no say in that..
..but I thought most of the 22nd would know at this time that we don't give a flying **** about what happend ages ago. I don't think anyone cares anymore.
So please, we don't write things here just because what happend in the past.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I think it would be better to handle this in another way, a default win for one team can screw things up for other teams in the league.
Give them a warning the first time and if it happens again, bam.. disqualified.

 

[Sarosu]

I have no idea what Sarosu's problem is but I propose that we just ignore it and move on.

d o u b l e - s t a n d a r d s

..but I thought most of the 22nd would know at this time that we don't give a flying **** about what happend ages ago.

BUT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE ME CARES! U SHUD CARE FOR MY HURT FEELINGS! YES! (cryface) ps. i sometiems luv u

Personally I think it would be better to handle this in another way, a default win for one team can screw things up for other teams in the league.
Give them a warning the first time and if it happens again, bam.. disqualified.

That will be abused.

 

[Lord Willy]

Alright Sadnhappy , my bad then.

I have no idea what Sarosu's problem is but I propose that we just ignore it and move on

Move on? i think we should end this here , as its really going nowhere , and i think its only hurts the League and the community in general .

And as I said

But on each match thread it say , "Make sure you verify your roster, before each match. No sympathy will be given, for accidental mistakes."

you didnt look at it , so that was your mistake , plus as it say "No sympathy will be given, for accidental mistakes"

So i think even if it might be unfair you should just accept it  , as it is also your (22nd) error .

Said this , i leave this thread with the hopes its gonna end .

Regards

Lord Willy

 

[Plazek]

I like Godnoken's suggestion.

 

[Sarosu]

You are not getting the point.

the point is: burn the wiches


Should be simple enough. peasents!

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

Refer to my and Ulf's post for insight on a real competitive environment.

 

[Shavsheti]

I don't get it why these arguements happened after RN - 22nd match. There were three default victories already in this league. And non of these clans started a thread about changing rules, rematch, stupid rules, Turks suck etc.

 

[Mupf aka Miwiw]

I like Godnoken's suggestion.

But not now. Not now after not only your clan lost due to the rules. Maybe from now on, after Lust changed (might change, not saying he should) the rule.
That just wouldn't be fair to the other clans who had a default loss aswell. Not saying the whole system is fair, but I am in IG in the team and agreed to the rules by playing in a match before.. well, and you did too, though it seems there might have some faults happened (not saying lust did smth wrong, neither saying you did it wrong Plazek), but Lust did decide already, and ya, thanks for the great organisation of this league Lust.

PS: Turks dont suck, they created this amazing game!

 

[Swordmaster]

I personally think that the default win thing is the best. I agree to the part, that you might win and get this result, is morale-breaking but it should also encourage clan leaders and such to be more careful. From what I've seen of the competetiveness in this game, even by looking in this thread that you're into it, it shouldnt be a problem to be more careful. 22nd's mistake was a sad one, honestly, but a rematch would be like a replay of a penalty in football.

Godnoken's suggestion is a good one, but that would also mean the team that made the error twice will be kicked out, and in my opinion, that's worse, as it would decrease the competetiveness more than actually getting a default loss. Which also affects other teams in the league. Would you rather play a league with a team down, especially if the team is one of the leading ones?

On the whole, the default win thing is also chance for teams with less experience, and would keep the competetiveness/tension in the league more.