Proposed new rules and discussion about day's topics.
- 主题发起人 sadnhappy
- 开始时间
正在查看此主题的用户
These rules are overly harsh. They are strict to the point that they go beyond the spirit in which they were made and punish, severely, behavior that would, were it not for the bureaucracy, be considered completely normal.
The point of this official roster is not to punish people for making administrative errors. Whether this error is caused by carelessness or by poor explanation is besides the point. The rules are put in place to create a fair game, a game where people cannot cheat by having others impersonate their players, where players cannot cheat clans by playing for more than one, the rules are meant to be here to punish the dishonest not to punish those who failed to tick the correct administrative boxes.
In this particular case, the default win awarded is by far less fair than the result of the match proper. The small error of using a player who had not been correctly registered should not mean ultimate victory (and 20-0 is ultimate) for the "aggrieved" party. This player has been in the 22nd for over a year and a half, there is no question of the authenticity of his membership within the clan. Nor was there any discrepancies with regards to his Warband key which is inside the ENL system in the form of a server log. These facts prove that there is no underhanded action here, no conspiracy, no cheating. The only "crime" here is a registration that was only half carried out, an honest mistake, a registration that was believed to have been correctly carried out, not an act made with contempt for the rules. This specific situation I might add also has no precedent, unlike other forfeit wins Nico's Warband key was in fact in the ENL system, and was identical to the one he used in the match. With no clear precedent there is no argument for the case that it is only fair to punish in this situation as others were punished. This situation is different, this is why Sad and myself feel we have been wronged on some level.
However, we will not be the only people who will be wronged if this state of affairs continues. When people put the mindless conformity with the rules above the spirit within which the rules were made the rules no longer serve their purpose. They become an issue of their own. It is not about whether or not you are cheating or conspiring to gain some advantage but about jumping through these artificial hoops of bureaucracy. Where the rules no longer punish cheaters and promote fairness but are perverted to do the very opposite.
Rules serve justice, justice does not serve rules. Rules should be used with the spirit within which they were made not abused and exploited to the letter. Some of the greatest injustices in legal history occurred because of over vigilant use of the "letter of the law". Such perversion of justice should in my opinion be avoided at all costs. I do not post this to change the result of this match but in the hope that maybe change can be achieved and issues such as these can be avoided in the future.
---
Also I would like to apolagise on behalf of some of my clan members. I fear they may have made some comments that when they have cooled down they may regret. However I hope you can understand there was a fair amount of emotion unleashed upon hearing about this, not least when provoked by comments made by some people I shall not deign to mention.
**** happens and that is exactly what this is.
The point of this official roster is not to punish people for making administrative errors. Whether this error is caused by carelessness or by poor explanation is besides the point. The rules are put in place to create a fair game, a game where people cannot cheat by having others impersonate their players, where players cannot cheat clans by playing for more than one, the rules are meant to be here to punish the dishonest not to punish those who failed to tick the correct administrative boxes.
In this particular case, the default win awarded is by far less fair than the result of the match proper. The small error of using a player who had not been correctly registered should not mean ultimate victory (and 20-0 is ultimate) for the "aggrieved" party. This player has been in the 22nd for over a year and a half, there is no question of the authenticity of his membership within the clan. Nor was there any discrepancies with regards to his Warband key which is inside the ENL system in the form of a server log. These facts prove that there is no underhanded action here, no conspiracy, no cheating. The only "crime" here is a registration that was only half carried out, an honest mistake, a registration that was believed to have been correctly carried out, not an act made with contempt for the rules. This specific situation I might add also has no precedent, unlike other forfeit wins Nico's Warband key was in fact in the ENL system, and was identical to the one he used in the match. With no clear precedent there is no argument for the case that it is only fair to punish in this situation as others were punished. This situation is different, this is why Sad and myself feel we have been wronged on some level.
However, we will not be the only people who will be wronged if this state of affairs continues. When people put the mindless conformity with the rules above the spirit within which the rules were made the rules no longer serve their purpose. They become an issue of their own. It is not about whether or not you are cheating or conspiring to gain some advantage but about jumping through these artificial hoops of bureaucracy. Where the rules no longer punish cheaters and promote fairness but are perverted to do the very opposite.
Rules serve justice, justice does not serve rules. Rules should be used with the spirit within which they were made not abused and exploited to the letter. Some of the greatest injustices in legal history occurred because of over vigilant use of the "letter of the law". Such perversion of justice should in my opinion be avoided at all costs. I do not post this to change the result of this match but in the hope that maybe change can be achieved and issues such as these can be avoided in the future.
---
Also I would like to apolagise on behalf of some of my clan members. I fear they may have made some comments that when they have cooled down they may regret. However I hope you can understand there was a fair amount of emotion unleashed upon hearing about this, not least when provoked by comments made by some people I shall not deign to mention.
**** happens and that is exactly what this is.
I think the rules are fine as they are. The biggest breach of sportsmanship in my eyes is a clan that seeks preferential treatment when they themselves get the rules applied to them.
Furthermore I dont see how the league is in any way tarnished by this. If a clan breaks any of the beforehand agreed upon rules they simply have to suck it up and continue.
I think the worst thing that can happen is if the rules are changed simply because 22nd started to complain when the rules were a disadvantage to them. That would send a completely wrong signal to all other clans.
Furthermore I dont see how the league is in any way tarnished by this. If a clan breaks any of the beforehand agreed upon rules they simply have to suck it up and continue.
I think the worst thing that can happen is if the rules are changed simply because 22nd started to complain when the rules were a disadvantage to them. That would send a completely wrong signal to all other clans.
Lord Willy
From what i've seen , I have to agree.Mordgrim 说:
Stop looking at it as a 22nd versus RN/Lust.
We were not aware of this ridiculous problem with the rule-set until it happened to us, this is abundantly clear as we would not have broken it otherwise. It is purely coincidence that we take exception to it now after it has been thrown at us. We are not just saying that all the clans suffering from it should be treated equally and also be allowed rematches just so our arguments bear weight, we genuinely believe that this is the fairest option.
Now please, get this back on topic, or else Lust may have to lock the thread again.
Sad did not start this so 22nd could have a go at Lust, if you look Sad made it very clear he wanted to move the discussion onto what the community felt about the rule in general, and proposed some actually quite sensible and fair compromises. Of course there are those people who will come in here and try to start a flame war because this is taleworlds and it is full of difficult people who hide behind their computers whilst being deliberately obtuse.
Please, please, try and look at this from everyone's point of view.
22nd:
played match, won it.
stupid little mistake, not worth the punishment.
RN:
played match, lost it.
found out 22nd had made a slight error, jumped on the victory train. (While I know the 22nd would never do this, mostly because we are too full of pride, I think I get where they are coming from, how ever much I despise it)
Lust:
Cannot be seen to give 22nd preference, goes against all fairness.
May need to readdress the rules for fairness.
Needs to bear in mind the smaller clans that do not have the great voice the A div clans do.
All the different views makes it into a mess, it just gets worse when you throw in nasty buggers who like to stir things up.
We were not aware of this ridiculous problem with the rule-set until it happened to us, this is abundantly clear as we would not have broken it otherwise. It is purely coincidence that we take exception to it now after it has been thrown at us. We are not just saying that all the clans suffering from it should be treated equally and also be allowed rematches just so our arguments bear weight, we genuinely believe that this is the fairest option.
Now please, get this back on topic, or else Lust may have to lock the thread again.
Sad did not start this so 22nd could have a go at Lust, if you look Sad made it very clear he wanted to move the discussion onto what the community felt about the rule in general, and proposed some actually quite sensible and fair compromises. Of course there are those people who will come in here and try to start a flame war because this is taleworlds and it is full of difficult people who hide behind their computers whilst being deliberately obtuse.
Please, please, try and look at this from everyone's point of view.
22nd:
played match, won it.
stupid little mistake, not worth the punishment.
RN:
played match, lost it.
found out 22nd had made a slight error, jumped on the victory train. (While I know the 22nd would never do this, mostly because we are too full of pride, I think I get where they are coming from, how ever much I despise it)
Lust:
Cannot be seen to give 22nd preference, goes against all fairness.
May need to readdress the rules for fairness.
Needs to bear in mind the smaller clans that do not have the great voice the A div clans do.
All the different views makes it into a mess, it just gets worse when you throw in nasty buggers who like to stir things up.
Lord Willy
I see , tough , honestly is useless to say this now ... it should have been said before , when we all agreed to this rules , or at least when there was the precedent episodes similar to this ( DR , 30A etc ) , saying this now put you or might put you (22nd) in a bad lights as people could think , "yes they are saying this now only because they are whining for the loss"etc... .Plazek 说:
BaldRider
Sergeant Knight
Mordgrim 说:
Mordgrimm, please pursue your vengeance over the 22nd - Einherjar/Shieldings drama elsewhere.
There are no claims of 22nd wanting special treatment, but complaints over a rulesystem, that is equal for everyone.
If you'd like to further voice your anger over 22nd, feel free to do so over steam.
That way, you can even do it in your native language.
@Lust.
Of course we complain about now that is hits us, just like any other group would.
^ Bite Me pretty much summarized it, he also gave other clans that failed at this rule a default loss, it would be wrong to make an exception for 22nd so I completely understand his decision. Also these other clans did not cause such a drama and surely none of their members insulted captain lust after he made all the effort of organizing this in my opinion great and well-organized tournament.
Rules might be flawed but the rules were agreed on, they probably need changing for next tournament but not this tournament to be a bit less harsh, in my opinion.
Rules might be flawed but the rules were agreed on, they probably need changing for next tournament but not this tournament to be a bit less harsh, in my opinion.
Lord Willy 说:
When the updates are just made and placed on the different threads practically as the tournament is on-going this makes it rather difficult unfortunately.
I know what it looks like, you will just have to believe that we believe its unfair to all, not just us.
BaldRider 说:
Mordgrim is a IG.
Lord Willy 说:
Of which we had no idea about before our incident, I acknowledged all this today so what you say is also obsolete. I haven't followed any of the B and C -division news or matches nor was I aware that there were forfeits being given until someone mentioned about those during the thread today. I also did many times say that all the forfeited matches should be either replayed or kept with the original score, not just ours, and in many posts I explained how default wins shouldn't have any place in this kinda tournament. We aren't looking for special treatment, more of an overhaul of a rule that has affected many other clans, a thing that we learned only today.
I would also like to add that I would be complaining about this if the roles were reversed: RN would have won in real match yet we would have been given the default win due to a silly incident like that.
Coffee'n'smokes posted this on our forum and I don't think it's entirely true since I know a lot of other people in our clan wouldn't accept default wins either but it gives you people a clear idea that I'm not lying about my opinion about not accepting a default win.
Anyways. Plazek made two awesome posts that very much highlighted the facts and delivered the message that I couldn't deliver so needless to say on behalf of my part I'll let Plazek handle this since as he is way more eloquent in the subject and ways of getting his message across than I am.
This situation its pretty simple.
22nd didn't checked the roster thread like they should, otherwise they would notice a player missing, in this case 22nd leaders failed to do a simple task and their whole clan suffered.
This so called "honest mistake" also happened to other clan (name doesn't matter) and the treatment was the same, and they disputed Lust decision also.
This rules are just fine, most of the clans from ENL don't seem to have any problem with it and everything runs smooth.
Also, just the fact that Sad didn't notice that this situation also happened to other clans, and claimed that 22nd was the only clan being punished, denotes some lack of interest and awareness for the ENL and the community.
I don't see any need regarding changing this roster rule.
Best Regards
22nd didn't checked the roster thread like they should, otherwise they would notice a player missing, in this case 22nd leaders failed to do a simple task and their whole clan suffered.
This so called "honest mistake" also happened to other clan (name doesn't matter) and the treatment was the same, and they disputed Lust decision also.
This rules are just fine, most of the clans from ENL don't seem to have any problem with it and everything runs smooth.
Also, just the fact that Sad didn't notice that this situation also happened to other clans, and claimed that 22nd was the only clan being punished, denotes some lack of interest and awareness for the ENL and the community.
I don't see any need regarding changing this roster rule.
Best Regards
Rules are fine, and I'll be pretty pissed if stuff wasn't changed before and it will be now because of the 22nd being too sloppy at managing their roster.
Suck it up like other clans, you signed to this league under set rules. I can't even imagine how you can try to call yourselves competitive if you want to change the rules of a formal league mid way through, nobody does that crap.
Suck it up like other clans, you signed to this league under set rules. I can't even imagine how you can try to call yourselves competitive if you want to change the rules of a formal league mid way through, nobody does that crap.
Lord Willy
Even if i found hard to believe that none of your clans was aware of it , your clan agreed anyway on it by entering on the tournament and so accepting the rules .Bite Me 说:
@ Sadnhappy , honestly i found hard to believe this too , as show this post after the REF match
sadnhappy 说:ALSO! Tonight at match against REF Whitestrake and Crazy Archer were at ENL Germany #2 server but of course didn't participate in the match so you have their ID's on those server logs
It looks like you are aware that there is a consequence , as you bold it , and as you say"ALSO" on capital letters, and as you say it in general after the REF match .
HarkonHakoon 说:
You are saying that default wins and forfeits is more competitive? Also not midway trough, first steps to be precise. If there had been 4-5 games played, then, sure, call it midway.
Lord Willy 说:
Yes I haven't said that I wasn't aware of it and I also quoted myself (the same post) that we have indeed obeyd the rules and added everyone that needs to be added into the roster! Nico signed before the thread was made and the new rules about substitutions, thus, no need to add him as he was on the roster. That's what I've been saying the whole time. Also lust edited the OP of this certain thread he keeps reminding me about so there's no evidence for what he keeps saying as he updated the OP with the new rules about it.
EDIT2: The also is there to highlight the servers the players went into to help the administrative team to find them easier from the logs, that is all. Since they at first had trouble finding them for some odd reason.
Not to argue over it, but default wins and losses are quite common in competitive gaming.
Hell, in CPL, CAL or TWL for BF2 you risked being outright disqualified for roster violations. At the very least you would fall completely in ranking(as in bottom of the ladder or relegation).
This was not an attempt to ruin competition but simply to ensure that teams were correct.
Those leagues were if anything even more competitive than Warband and whilst harsh they ran very smoothly in comparison.
If Warband is to become a successful competitive game, then rules must exist and be consistently enforced, even if on occasion they disrupt a good match or so forth.
In the past as a rather tight nit community we could rely on honesty and simple discussion, but if the competitive scene expands this becomes unmanageable.
Any time rules must be the deciding factor it is a tragedy, however, it is also a necessity.
Hell, in CPL, CAL or TWL for BF2 you risked being outright disqualified for roster violations. At the very least you would fall completely in ranking(as in bottom of the ladder or relegation).
This was not an attempt to ruin competition but simply to ensure that teams were correct.
Those leagues were if anything even more competitive than Warband and whilst harsh they ran very smoothly in comparison.
If Warband is to become a successful competitive game, then rules must exist and be consistently enforced, even if on occasion they disrupt a good match or so forth.
In the past as a rather tight nit community we could rely on honesty and simple discussion, but if the competitive scene expands this becomes unmanageable.
Any time rules must be the deciding factor it is a tragedy, however, it is also a necessity.
My opinion:
The rules are the rules.
The ID listing is for something, simply for example dont replace players such as DfD and DFD in which it could play with his veterans.
I would leave the match lost as everyone else. Is the rules sorry, the next time take caution.
Upon entering the league all knew the rules and accept them, I think this quite clear.
Sorry my poor english!
The rules are the rules.
The ID listing is for something, simply for example dont replace players such as DfD and DFD in which it could play with his veterans.
I would leave the match lost as everyone else. Is the rules sorry, the next time take caution.
Upon entering the league all knew the rules and accept them, I think this quite clear.
Sorry my poor english!
In any kind of actual LEAGUE, yeah, such rules are what keeps the competition honest and formalized. This kind of stuff happens in every single competitive game and people use ringers / wrong rosters at their own discretion, and I know this from personal experience. At the beggining it might seem outrageous but it needs to be like this to ensure a serious competitive environment.sadnhappy 说:
The usual sanctions are much harsher you know. Teams being disqualified completely, player disqualified and match automatically forfeited.
We should just be glad that we only get 1 loss, and we can learn and not commit the same mistake again. Trust me, online competitive gaming in general doesn't take this sort of thing lightly.
(just noticed that Ulf posted some points mentioned, which is totally fine and normal, because hey, it's true, and anyone with experience knows it.)
