Prophesy of Pendor vs Bannerlord

Users who are viewing this thread

I am sure this has been done many times before, but the other day I felt the itch once more and fired up ole PoP and could not believe how much this ancient Warband mod has going for it. Considering its popularity it really makes you wonder why BL devs could not borrow any of its concepts.

1. Faction flavor. Each of the major factions in PoP actually looks and feels unique. When you're in a field battle against Fierdsvain or D'Shar or Ravenstern, you can tell right away whom you're fighting. Even when you approach the lords of different factions, they have different voice-overs. And each faction actually has its strengths and weaknesses. Ravenstern has good archers, Sarleon has good heavy cavalry, etc. In BL you have no reason to ever hire anything other than Fian Champions or Khans Guards.

2. Minor factions. PoP has all kinds of different bands and hosts roaming the map. Jatu, vanskerries, heretics, etc. This not only gives the player someone to fight during peace time, but also makes the world feel alive and deep. BL just has looters and sea raiders.

3. Bandits. Speaking of looters, even the plain regular bandit parties in PoP are somehow more interesting to fight. They are built like an actual army, with infantry and archers and a bit of cavalry. Even in the late game, when they no longer pose any challenge to the player, they can still offer some decent loot and a bit of renown. Looter parties get old after the second time you face them.

4. Knighthood Orders. They add more interesting and powerful units to the game, increasing already excellent troop variety. They provide the player with cool quests well into late game. Any AI lords that have chapters of KO orders in one of their fiefs will field a few of them in battle, further making armies feel a little more unique. During war, the KOs will often send out war parties to help their faction - not enough to affect the outcome of the war in a major way but a fun dynamic nonetheless.

5. Custom Knighthood Orders. Maybe the most popular feature of the mod, the ability for the player to train and equip his own custom troops is completely missing from BL. This is one of those things that adds a ton of replay value. Anyone who has played PoP knows what I'm talking about. You start a new campaign thinking "This time I'm going to make my CKO with shock troops as my knights and mounted crossbowmen as my sergeants.. yeah, wouldn't that be something!" Not that PoP was the only Warband mod that had custom troop feature, but it's the most fleshed out one that I know of. Again, BL never even attempted to do anything of the sort.

6. Unique Spawns. Huge powerful hosts that roam the map and can even give AI lord armies a run for their money. Defeating them provides nice rewards for the player, so these remain relevant until the very end of the campaign. And once more, it's yet another feature that makes the game world feel more dynamic and alive.

7. Qualis Gems. Alternative currency that is very rare and valuable and can be used to slightly boost the player or his companions, recruit a small number of very powerful troops, and many other things. Yet another thing that can give the player something to do late into the campaign.

8. Noldor items and rune weapons. Very high end armor and weapons that are very hard to obtain and give the player yet another thing to look forward to throughout the entire campaign. Almost like "epic" items from MMORPGs.

9. Companions. They actually have some flavor and a story. Yes, their bickering gets old quickly and the "voice acting" in PoP is somewhat of a meme, something that is "so bad it's actually good". But the fact remains that companions in PoP (and WB in general) feel special while BL companions are bland and boring. Oh, and when you turn PoP companions into lords they field unique household troops. Many times I've actually made them into vassals for this reason alone, even though it's not an optimal thing to do, but it's just fun seeing a lord of your faction going around with rare and unusual troops such as the Noldor, for instance.

10. Speaking of Noldor... A special minor faction that starts out hostile to the player, very scary and dangerous. But you can befriend them and gain access to their hidden city and participate in their tournaments which are tougher than normal tournaments but also have much better rewards. Why doesn't BL have anything like this?

11. Player Hideout. PoP has a quest line that can be started at any time, which eventually rewards the player with his own hideout where he can store up a few troops, repair broken items, and do other cool stuff. It serves as a kind of mini-castle while you are not yet a lord and have no land of your own.

12. Feasts. I know this is actually a vanilla WB feature, but still something that has no reason to be missing from BL. Great way to improve relations with your vassals and also just a cool way to see all the lords of your faction in one place.

Well, I could go on but you get the idea. Here we have a Warband mod that is very popular and has been around more than a decade, so it's not like BL designers never heard of it. Why didn't they borrow any of these ideas?
 
PoP is a fantasy setting and not what Warband or Bannerlord intended to simulate. Several of PoPs features are a bit stupid or at least artificial, judged from that background. I'm not a big fan of PoP to be honest, especially the Noldor thing and the customs orders with custom troops annoyed me.

That said, a more story driven fantasy setting, with more troop/race diversity, a bit magic, dark forces or such could have been one way to improve BL. It would just not be the original M+B idea. Land of Sika is an example for a mod after this concept, I would perhaps like it if it had not the custom troops feature integrated. And I surely will play The Old Realms.
 
I am sure this has been done many times before, but the other day I felt the itch once more and fired up ole PoP and could not believe how much this ancient Warband mod has going for it. Considering its popularity it really makes you wonder why BL devs could not borrow any of its concepts.

1. Faction flavor. Each of the major factions in PoP actually looks and feels unique. When you're in a field battle against Fierdsvain or D'Shar or Ravenstern, you can tell right away whom you're fighting. Even when you approach the lords of different factions, they have different voice-overs. And each faction actually has its strengths and weaknesses. Ravenstern has good archers, Sarleon has good heavy cavalry, etc. In BL you have no reason to ever hire anything other than Fian Champions or Khans Guards.

2. Minor factions. PoP has all kinds of different bands and hosts roaming the map. Jatu, vanskerries, heretics, etc. This not only gives the player someone to fight during peace time, but also makes the world feel alive and deep. BL just has looters and sea raiders.

3. Bandits. Speaking of looters, even the plain regular bandit parties in PoP are somehow more interesting to fight. They are built like an actual army, with infantry and archers and a bit of cavalry. Even in the late game, when they no longer pose any challenge to the player, they can still offer some decent loot and a bit of renown. Looter parties get old after the second time you face them.

4. Knighthood Orders. They add more interesting and powerful units to the game, increasing already excellent troop variety. They provide the player with cool quests well into late game. Any AI lords that have chapters of KO orders in one of their fiefs will field a few of them in battle, further making armies feel a little more unique. During war, the KOs will often send out war parties to help their faction - not enough to affect the outcome of the war in a major way but a fun dynamic nonetheless.

5. Custom Knighthood Orders. Maybe the most popular feature of the mod, the ability for the player to train and equip his own custom troops is completely missing from BL. This is one of those things that adds a ton of replay value. Anyone who has played PoP knows what I'm talking about. You start a new campaign thinking "This time I'm going to make my CKO with shock troops as my knights and mounted crossbowmen as my sergeants.. yeah, wouldn't that be something!" Not that PoP was the only Warband mod that had custom troop feature, but it's the most fleshed out one that I know of. Again, BL never even attempted to do anything of the sort.

6. Unique Spawns. Huge powerful hosts that roam the map and can even give AI lord armies a run for their money. Defeating them provides nice rewards for the player, so these remain relevant until the very end of the campaign. And once more, it's yet another feature that makes the game world feel more dynamic and alive.

7. Qualis Gems. Alternative currency that is very rare and valuable and can be used to slightly boost the player or his companions, recruit a small number of very powerful troops, and many other things. Yet another thing that can give the player something to do late into the campaign.

8. Noldor items and rune weapons. Very high end armor and weapons that are very hard to obtain and give the player yet another thing to look forward to throughout the entire campaign. Almost like "epic" items from MMORPGs.

9. Companions. They actually have some flavor and a story. Yes, their bickering gets old quickly and the "voice acting" in PoP is somewhat of a meme, something that is "so bad it's actually good". But the fact remains that companions in PoP (and WB in general) feel special while BL companions are bland and boring. Oh, and when you turn PoP companions into lords they field unique household troops. Many times I've actually made them into vassals for this reason alone, even though it's not an optimal thing to do, but it's just fun seeing a lord of your faction going around with rare and unusual troops such as the Noldor, for instance.

10. Speaking of Noldor... A special minor faction that starts out hostile to the player, very scary and dangerous. But you can befriend them and gain access to their hidden city and participate in their tournaments which are tougher than normal tournaments but also have much better rewards. Why doesn't BL have anything like this?

11. Player Hideout. PoP has a quest line that can be started at any time, which eventually rewards the player with his own hideout where he can store up a few troops, repair broken items, and do other cool stuff. It serves as a kind of mini-castle while you are not yet a lord and have no land of your own.

12. Feasts. I know this is actually a vanilla WB feature, but still something that has no reason to be missing from BL. Great way to improve relations with your vassals and also just a cool way to see all the lords of your faction in one place.

Well, I could go on but you get the idea. Here we have a Warband mod that is very popular and has been around more than a decade, so it's not like BL designers never heard of it. Why didn't they borrow any of these ideas?
I agree with every point. PoP was awesome. I think the most important things for me where to different goals you could set for yourself. Like hunting for a quelis gem, starting a knighthood order or hunting after a specific unique spawn. I especially liked the drunken peasant army.

I still remember the jump scare with the booming god voice telling me I gained a skill point😀
 
1. Faction flavor. Each of the major factions in PoP actually looks and feels unique. When you're in a field battle against Fierdsvain or D'Shar or Ravenstern, you can tell right away whom you're fighting. Even when you approach the lords of different factions, they have different voice-overs. And each faction actually has its strengths and weaknesses. Ravenstern has good archers, Sarleon has good heavy cavalry, etc.
Yes, I agree Bannerlord's factions would benefit from feeling more different. I wrote a suggestion on how to give them bigger specialities and weaknesses.
In BL you have no reason to ever hire anything other than Fian Champions or Khans Guards.
This is due to the insane amount of damage that archers can do through armour. Armour needs to actually provide proper protection against arrows, then melee troops will be good.
2. Minor factions. PoP has all kinds of different bands and hosts roaming the map. Jatu, vanskerries, heretics, etc. This not only gives the player someone to fight during peace time, but also makes the world feel alive and deep. BL just has looters and sea raiders.
We have minor factions in BL, the problem is that they don't do anything other than mercenary work, and they have unique troops but barely even use them. So they end up feeling like just another normal clan.
9. Companions. They actually have some flavor and a story. Yes, their bickering gets old quickly and the "voice acting" in PoP is somewhat of a meme, something that is "so bad it's actually good". But the fact remains that companions in PoP (and WB in general) feel special while BL companions are bland and boring. Oh, and when you turn PoP companions into lords they field unique household troops. Many times I've actually made them into vassals for this reason alone, even though it's not an optimal thing to do, but it's just fun seeing a lord of your faction going around with rare and unusual troops such as the Noldor, for instance.
Yeah, BL companions feel very disposable and forgettable. And probably always will while they are randomly generated, but I think they could be improved a bit;
  • Make them easier to level up.
  • Give them more dialogue. Perhaps make them involved in random events where the player can choose one of two options.
  • Make their personality traits actually have an effect on their behaviour.
  • Add +20 relation with them when you hire them, so they are happy to see you.
12. Feasts. I know this is actually a vanilla WB feature, but still something that has no reason to be missing from BL. Great way to improve relations with your vassals and also just a cool way to see all the lords of your faction in one place.
Yes!! Bring back feasts!!
 
PoP is a fantasy setting and not what Warband or Bannerlord intended to simulate. Several of PoPs features are a bit stupid or at least artificial, judged from that background. I'm not a big fan of PoP to be honest, especially the Noldor thing and the customs orders with custom troops annoyed me.

That said, a more story driven fantasy setting, with more troop/race diversity, a bit magic, dark forces or such could have been one way to improve BL. It would just not be the original M+B idea. Land of Sika is an example for a mod after this concept, I would perhaps like it if it had not the custom troops feature integrated. And I surely will play The Old Realms.
I know PoP is often labeled as fantasy, but the magical/supernatural elements in it are very few and far between. The Noldor are supposed to be elves, which you wouldn't even know if not for a few dialogue mentions, otherwise they look just like regular NPCs. And one minor faction (heretics) occasionally field undead troops. And that's it as far as fantasy settings.

If anything, I've always felt PoP was "the game that Warband should have been". It's mostly the same basic Mount & Blade game, just improved. But I suppose to each his own.
 
The classic Fantasy vs Historical debate aside, about the military order things, I may suggest something similar can be done in BL lore-friendly: remove some top-class troops from regular cultural troop trees, instead make them clan- or location-exclusive.

Such as take bucellarii and elite cataphracts out from the regular empire troop-tree, instead add a Scholae Corps which includes Hippotoxotai and Klibanaphoroi, but only loyal to their chosen claimant. Take out the sharpshooters and Voulgier/pikeman and make them only available to southern republican cities like Charas and Sargot. Give the Aserai Sultan his royal Mamluks and Khassaki(tier 6) and let the other Aserai clans be satisfied with tribesmen and Faris(remove the tier 6 Vanguard).

That should also make each culture feels more unique, not allow one kingdom has a more or less complete troop tree.
 
Actually, they did evolve into Bannerlord some key elements from POP. The most notable is the separation of regular unit troop lines with noble troop lines. The other was advancing and evolving the base concepts of Ravenstern around the Welsh/Gaelic/Scottish culture that became Battania in Bannerlord. Kilts and Longbows...

@Haphrilagos - Good analysis there. I was thinking along the same lines but giving certain NPC's and/or clans the ability to train specific troop types.

For the player, if an NPC could train say "Vlandian Sappers" then the player could promote troops into that form. This is allowed primarily because we are no longer limited by a 2 path upgrade system in Bannerlord. I have experimented and tested with up to 5 possible upgrade paths per unit and with different levels.

For NPC's either use location or clan based conditionals in order to train specific Specialty troops.

@five bucks - Good post. The current approach to companion generation, while nicely executed, does not reach the full potential for this game element. I feel if we keep an eye on what a "companion" means to the player, then we will start to see ways to more meaningfully implement systems around them that will give the player what they desire: context and meaning. For example we want companions to have personalities, goals, likes and dislikes, and during play have them act on those goals and behaviors.

I feel the ultimate goal is to create a living, breathing dynamic environment that players can interact with.. or not. A world filled with characters, events, and different influences that shape the game space uniquely every time we play. Bannerlord has the foundation for that.. like the base of a pyramid. I feel the frustration is we can "see" where and what it can evolve into, but for whatever reason, it does not reach fully into those lofty heights.
 
The lords in M&B/Warband also had faces that represented their overall demeanor -Good guy lords had friendlier faces while nasty chaotic Lords had mean mugs -that was part of the immersion -just having a sense who you're dealing with. The decision to randomize NPC's in BL to me was a very bad one. Along the same lines, Bandits and Seas Raiders wanted to fight and chop your head off -in BL they feel subdued and even their expressions and faces look listless like they dont even relly want to fight unless the player initates it.

this may sound trivial or not a big deal but just adds to the sense that the overall world just doesnt make that much sense. Sandbox shouldnt mean an empty lot without anything but a few planks of wood and some sand -it should be a dynamic place with engrained characters and world dynamics already in play -with the Player now able to both make and feel his mark. I think TaleWorlds lost sight of this somewhere as I still know the names of lords and Characters better from M&B/Warband and yes even PoP than I do BL.
 
Bannerlord will get good mods too! They´ll just break every two weeks for the next 2 years. That´s the problem.

But of course you could always stay on the second newest version (if you´re on Steam at least. EGS sucks so thats fine.) that doesn´t get updates every third day that don´t do anything. And of course those modders needs to update their mods every half year when a major updates arrives or stay on a outdated version.
 
I know PoP is often labeled as fantasy, but the magical/supernatural elements in it are very few and far between. The Noldor are supposed to be elves, which you wouldn't even know if not for a few dialogue mentions, otherwise they look just like regular NPCs. And one minor faction (heretics) occasionally field undead troops. And that's it as far as fantasy settings.
People will consider a game with elves and undead creatures running around to be fantasy, regardless of their rarity.
 
PoP is a fantasy setting and not what Warband or Bannerlord intended to simulate. Several of PoPs features are a bit stupid or at least artificial, judged from that background. I'm not a big fan of PoP to be honest, especially the Noldor thing and the customs orders with custom troops annoyed me.

That said, a more story driven fantasy setting, with more troop/race diversity, a bit magic, dark forces or such could have been one way to improve BL. It would just not be the original M+B idea. Land of Sika is an example for a mod after this concept, I would perhaps like it if it had not the custom troops feature integrated. And I surely will play The Old Realms.
People always use the "it's a fantasy setting" in this kind of argument, whereas is doesn't really makes any sense, because 1. Bannerlord is as much as a simulator as a fantasy medieval setting and 2. It really doesn't change anything. I mean, make every faction of PoP with the exception of Noldor into a non high fantasy faction and it could completely work. Knighthood orders, renowned bandit leaders with different cultures, soldiers from other continents/lands, and then the difficulty and diplomacy options PoP provides.

PoP minus the fantasy it's Warband Plus, it doesn't gets insanely deep like Nova Aetas where you buy land and stuff, but it gets deep enough lore wise so you get interested into its world, and it's characters, while also providing a challenge to the player that requires using your brain to win battles and conquering kingdoms.
 
The unique spawns, knight orders, and the nolder less as a fantasy race but as a tougher enemy were all great for replability. After beating up on Lords and even defeating my first unique spawn I remember thinking a medium size Noldor army wouldn't be a big challenge... yeah- my army of 400 was wiped out in less than 5 minutes.

How unique spawns could work in a medieval game is a few different ways- I am assuming TW wants to stay away from crusades/jihads but there were attacks from the steppes every few centuries for most of known European history so that would be where I would start.

Knight Orders seem something fun to implement and would add a huge amount for rogue type players too to infiltrate or even wipe out a knight order which is opposed to bandits. The ability to make custom knight order would also be far more interesting if combined with smithing to get unique armors and weapons.

The one I am not sure about would be how to implement in a historical game is a faction with super units that players can't recruit except a few handful as prisoners. The only way I could see it is a faction having early access to gunpower or advanced armor but I can't see TW going for that unless they make an expansion timed 300-400 years after BL.
 
Last edited:
For the player, if an NPC could train say "Vlandian Sappers" then the player could promote troops into that form. This is allowed primarily because we are no longer limited by a 2 path upgrade system in Bannerlord. I have experimented and tested with up to 5 possible upgrade paths per unit and with different levels.

For NPC's either use location or clan based conditionals in order to train specific Specialty troops.
This is also what I'm dreaming about, and I believe could make some combinations with other mechanics which are boring now.

Such as the NPC training ability you mentioned. How about set some permenant unique NPC heroes/-ines, besides those randomly spawned generic tavern companions, and let these heroes offer more possibilities? Like story-quest lines and individual special ablitities such as training exlusive troops. For example a former domisticus of the scholae with extremely high levels of Tactics and Leadership, who will unlock the recruitment of elite scholae troops to owner of the imperial capital(s). Well I think actually Istiana and her male counterpart have already had such pontetials.

And rather than have so many duplicated "+0.5 Militia everyday" perks, how about say a Crossbow skill perk enables you to train/convert a stronger variation of militia crossbowman? I think this will bring more fun to character building.
 
The lords in M&B/Warband also had faces that represented their overall demeanor -Good guy lords had friendlier faces while nasty chaotic Lords had mean mugs -that was part of the immersion -just having a sense who you're dealing with. The decision to randomize NPC's in BL to me was a very bad one.
Over half the lords in Warband had their personalities randomized at the start of every playthrough but their faces were the same.
 
Last edited:
And rather than have so many duplicated "+0.5 Militia everyday" perks, how about say a Crossbow skill perk enables you to train/convert a stronger variation of militia crossbowman? I think this will bring more fun to character building.
Yes 🙌 we need less +% perks and more gameplay effecting perks. Who gets excited with a % increase?

I would like to see some unique spawns like a bandit king or some expeditionaire force from outside calradia. And please bring back the peasant army!

Minor clans are totale under-utilised. Their units could be better.
There should be some specific quests to unlock their support and recruitment options(like Gifting a fief or building a chapter
House) or adopt their ‘culture’ as your main culture.

PoP had enough things to do that offered a change from the constant fighting with the other factions.
 
People always use the "it's a fantasy setting" in this kind of argument, whereas is doesn't really makes any sense, because 1. Bannerlord is as much as a simulator as a fantasy medieval setting and 2. It really doesn't change anything. I mean, make every faction of PoP with the exception of Noldor into a non high fantasy faction and it could completely work. Knighthood orders, renowned bandit leaders with different cultures, soldiers from other continents/lands, and then the difficulty and diplomacy options PoP provides.

PoP minus the fantasy it's Warband Plus, it doesn't gets insanely deep like Nova Aetas where you buy land and stuff, but it gets deep enough lore wise so you get interested into its world, and it's characters, while also providing a challenge to the player that requires using your brain to win battles and conquering kingdoms.

Wether there are elves or orcs or not is not the point. In PoP there were extremely strong units and individuals and a kind of magic. If the Noldor weren't elves (btw I really like elves) but x, it would be as unrealistic as it was. M+B on the other hand, while not historical, tries to have a historical vibe. You cannot have invasions of super villains then, as well as many other features of PoP.

I would prefer if BL had better made diplomacy, relations, castle designs and so on, I don't need PoP features.
 
Wether there are elves or orcs or not is not the point.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said, it's like you completely went around what I said and missed the point entirely.

Despite being super strong units, the game works very well in absolutely every other aspect for Bannerlord. When I say take away the high fantasy stuff, such as super strong units in this case, you still have actual bandits with lore, acting as mini factions and wandering around sometimes even raiding villages and the big ones (a bit excessive for bannerlord if you really care) raiding towns, with their own story, their own troops and gear, you can even find a companion that fled one of those bandits and from time to time you get to know more about them, it's amazing! Then you have wood bandits in Bannerlord... Dudes with bows that die in a second, and have no reason to be... On the other hand in PoP there is also a really cool party called "angry villagers" or something along those lines that spawns when a kingdom is doing like crap, I mean isn't that an excellent world building reaction from the game to events?

And then Knight Orders exist, and unlike the nonsense that mini factions are in Bannelord, they are part of a kingdom, they have their own HQ and are an elite force that adds troop variety, more characterization, and they also have conflicts between each others, so when you quest for them you yourself get into that conflict, and now a knight order in a peaceful kingdom hates your guts, adding more variety to the gameplay, and more difficulty too, because if you find roaming knights in early game you might want to run from well armored knights. (oh in PoP armour actually affects your gameplay, apparently being well geared helped you survive or something! Crazy!) Knights also countered bandits, so you had a little balance.

See these 2 small features of PoP - actual bandits and good mini factions - already added a lot of depth to the ingame lore (unlike Bannerlord's flavor text that says that the politics in Battania are different to everything else while in the game is not true at all), and added variety of enemies and allies, added more activities to do in the world, more dangers for when you're moving around the map, and these are again, just 2 features of PoP, I can go around the rest if you want, but I think you get that my point is that PoP has depth, and that depth makes it an immersive and interesting game.
 
On the other hand in PoP there is also a really cool party called "angry villagers" or something along those lines that spawns when a kingdom is doing like crap, I mean isn't that an excellent world building reaction from the game to events?
it's really the small stuff like that which makes a immersive living world

sad that small stuff doesn't fit in with taleworlds streamlined game design
 
Wether there are elves or orcs or not is not the point. In PoP there were extremely strong units and individuals and a kind of magic. If the Noldor weren't elves (btw I really like elves) but x, it would be as unrealistic as it was. M+B on the other hand, while not historical, tries to have a historical vibe. You cannot have invasions of super villains then, as well as many other features of PoP.

I would prefer if BL had better made diplomacy, relations, castle designs and so on, I don't need PoP features.
Bannerlord could have easily used a "Nord Invasion" a few years into the game to shake things up. Instead of Sturgia we'd have a more "vaegir like" kingdom in the north, being contantly harassed by sea raiders, until a certain point, where they'd stop spawining for awhile and a massive sea invasion would happen with a nord king and jarls leading it.

Many Pop features would make sense here, because most of them, at their core, have nothing to do with fantasy elements.

-Knighthood orders could appear in bannerlord with direct parallels to historical orders such as the Knights Templar, the Teutonic Order, the legendary Jormsvikings (the Skolderbroda are based on them) and many others, allowing the player to join these orders and progress in rank would provide a new mechanic to engage us in the mid to late game.

-Founding an order and customizing it would be a really popular feature.

- More "minor factions" such as roaming mercenaries, more types of looters/bandits would help populate the map and provide a new challenge once you are out of the early game.

- From Warband we know there are other lands outside of calradia, such as Geroia, where some of the original companions are from. We could have raiding parties from these foreign nations showing up every now and then, and if they manage to win a few battles and get stronger a full on invasion would trigger.

- Kings and powerful lords in history had highly decorated equipment, taleworlds could add "unique items" into the game for the players to find either by defeating some npcs or exploring the world.
 
People will consider a game with elves and undead creatures running around to be fantasy, regardless of their rarity.
Why wouldn't they? Low fantasy is still "fantasy". If that's not what you are looking for, then the fantastic elements detract. High and low amounts of fantasy have their own appeal as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom