BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

BEAST is the first Bannerlord Skirmish tournament in Europe.

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Promotion in Beast#4 / Transition to 6 team divisions

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Buchholz is a fine principle and i like it. But in this case, too many default wins messed up the matchmaking. Buchholz is just not meant to be matched with default wins. This should be taken into consideration if it is used in future BEASTs again.

Cautionary Tale: Imperium Polskie will be promoted in Division E. They literally outclass Divitiarum Chao, Defenders of Faith and Duché de Normandie. Out of these IPL only played against DivC and lost 10-4. The other matches didnt happen. These matches that didnt happen should have decided wich clans are demoted to F. Instead we had a rather random matchmaking due to autowins.

This is not meant disrepectfull at all. I am not saying IPL would have lost all those matches. It's just unfair for clans to be demoted because matchmaking threw you into the stronger clans while IPL could easily win 4 times against the argueably weakest clans of this season (KW3, GoW, HVT, TW). This is not meant to be disrespectfull too.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Unfortunately the game is in a horribly volatile state, even more so than at release at this point. Clans are disbanding and reforming over and over at this point and it’s throwing the lower divisions into disarray. So there will continue to be a problem for all those teams who are in the lower division.
 
Having every single new team start at the very bottom should prevent teams from disbanding lightly.

Added to this, more strict rules about claiming a previous season slot should also help teams disband less (for example having at least 6 players from the previous season's roster in the new roster to be able to claim the same slot, or simply having the exact same name -like it's done in most sports leagues-).
Then just slide every team up, keeping the end season ranking's sequence, to fill the gaps created by disbanded teams. And have the new teams meet each other in ranking matches if there are too many to fit in the last division (and put the lowest in one or more newly created divisions).

If it takes more than a year to climb up to div A for a new team, decisions about disbanding will be taken more seriously.
If you want to make the climbing faster, create parallel divisions for the lowest ones (for example div F-1 and div F-2, which are at the same "level" but teams don't play each other, a where the winners both get promoted to div E for example...). You can have as many parallel divisons as you like, but it must respect a kind of "pyramid" to make promotions possible (if you have 4 divisions F, you can't reasonably promote the 4 winners to one single division E of 6 teams...).

In real sports it takes decades for a club to climb (or even reclimb in a case of bankruptcy -therefore having to change corporate name- for example) to the top, if ever (except in closed leagues where there is a fixed number of slots, and slots are sold and bought by the franchises with authorization of the managing organization; but that system causes the number of players to be small and finite, thus leaving the many out of it -totally inadequate for the actual BL scene, particularly if you want the community to grow-, and those systems actually need to feed off other sports-based systems that allow players to develop -like the NBA feeding off NCAA players-).

PS: I also agree that the matchmaking system was totally unfair this season in div D. But with the new division system, I suppose the problem will disappear, since every team should be able to meet all the others of the same division once (only 5 matches).
 
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DeathBG

Veteran
Having every single new team start at the very bottom should prevent teams from disbanding lightly.

Added to this, more strict rules about claiming a previous season slot should also help teams disband less (for example having at least 6 players from the previous season's roster in the new roster to be able to claim the same slot, or simply having the exact same name -like it's done in most sports leagues-).
Then just slide every team up, keeping the end season ranking's sequence, to fill the gaps created by disbanded teams. And have the new teams meet each other in ranking matches if there are too many to fit in the last division (and put the lowest in one or more newly created divisions).

If it takes more than a year to climb up to div A for a new team, decisions about disbanding will be taken more seriously.
If you want to make the climbing faster, create parallel divisions for the lowest ones (for example div F-1 and div F-2, which are at the same "level" but teams don't play each other, a where the winners both get promoted to div E for example...). You can have as many parallel divisons as you like, but it must respect a kind of "pyramid" to make promotions possible (if you have 4 divisions F, you can't reasonably promote the 4 winners to one single division E of 6 teams...).

In real sports it takes decades for a club to climb (or even reclimb in a case of bankruptcy for example) to the top, if ever (except in closed leagues where there is a fixed number of slots, and slots are sold and bought by the franchises with authorization of the managing organization, but that is out of question when there is no money involved).

PS: I also agree that the matchmaking system was totally unfair this season in div D. But with the new division system, I suppose the problem will disappear, since every team should be able to meet all the others of the same division once (only 5 matches).
I totally agree.I stated in previous posts that the BEAST Staff is encouraging teams to disband by letting new teams take spots in higher divisions.I did ask the staff to do it for my team in the past and it's not my place to say it, but still players are changing clans like crazy when their team starts to get destroyed and cannot achieve the planned success.

From now on, any team that gets created needs to start from the the bottom and through fast progression(If they are good) climb up the ladder.Hopefully that will make people think twice before they decide to leave their current clan.Also it will encourage teams to defend their spot and not disband after major destruction by other teams.

If a team disbands then every team goes 1 spot up if they are below the spot of the team who disbanded.
 
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I think if some team is disbanded, the leader of any new team can negotiate to inherit the place of this team.

But these requires two conditions:
1) some team disbanding, and not gonna participate in next tourney, but it have place for next toureny in div B for example
2) this disbanding team leader can announce, that it giving as a gift its place in div B to some NEW team. (it cant be gifted to old team, which already has its own place in divisions)

Only if both conditions done, only in this case new team can get place in F+ division.
The team which gifted its place to other team, in case of returning to tourney, should start from F.

P.S. such variant assumes that leader of new team has some connections in the community, so that he can find and deal with the leader of disbanding team. Indirectly it will also means that such leader of new team is maybe really able to form the team which is too powerful for last div.
 
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It can be upgraded like if new team getting place in any division as a gift, it will be -1 division.

So disbanding team in div A making a gift to new team, then new team goes to B (A-1)
If disbanding team in div B making a gift to new team, then new team goes to C (B-1)
etc (so gifting your place in E will be senselessly, because new team will go to F anyway in that case)

P.S. It will help to avoid too much exploits of such practice. and in such variant place in div A never can be gifted, only earned.


P.S. with all my respect to aD, that sudden transition of them to A in previous Beasts, a bit devalued the meaning of being div A team. [but ofc it was good for aD to get very nice experience, and I m sad that they arent gonna participate in next tourney]
 

Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You guys aren't wrong. I also think that placing the teams based of free spots may be frustrating. Afterall a lot of teams have been grinding the ladder for quite some time.

However, our ultimate goal for this tournament has always been a both fun and competetive environment.

We believe that placing a team based on it's expected skill, is better than forcing all new teams into one division.

Every season I get people coming to me that are forming new teams, asking not to be placed into the lowest division. Most recently Bard's new team which arguably has some strong players. For these teams spending time in the lower divisions is not fun. On the other side of the spectrum we have new or inexperienced clans that try out competetive for the first time.

For example last season Callum and Hooni spoke up about being placed against clans that are too strong.
So clearly these matches aren't fun for either of these teams.

Last season was really interesting in terms of new teams. A few of Bannerlords top teams broke up and a few of Warband's top teams joined us.

In division A Greedy Goblins was formed, consisting of different players from division A.
In the end they landed the third place. Meaning the are possible the 3rd strongest team in all of Europe.

How do you think it's possibly fun to have this kind of team in the last division?
Same goes for SGM. They were basically the old Keyboard Warriors Light team under a new name.
Are they a new team? Arguably. They placed 5th in division A.

Last season we had so many open spots that in the end we were forced to enter some of them into division D anyway.

Apis Europae and DR stomped every other team into the ground. Thanks to our system they mostly faced teams of equal strength and they still dominated.
If we put all new teams in this division, the skill in there is no more fit for beginners the way it should be.

I know teams are unhappy if a new team is placed immediatly above them. I 100% get that.

But - and I might come of as an ******* again -teams only deserve their place in the ladder.
If there are 5 new spots open in division A, that doesn't mean you magically got better and suddenly are on one level with teams like RM and DM.

If you end the season on the 20th place in all the tournament that usually also means you have earned exactly that spot. Not any higher and not any lower.

When it comes to open spots in the tournament we don't always give them to new teams either.

Before the start of season 3 we had an open spot in division A.
We asked all the teams in division B if they wanted to move up. None did.


I honestly would love to place all new teams into one division. But that will be terrible for all beginner clans.
Maybe we will someday reach a point where teams stop reforming and the ladder will work all by it's self. But for now we will keep on adjusting if we feel we need to.
 
Well strict rules are better anyway instead of we will do anything we want "if we feel we need to".

Some kind of entry-promotion matches can be implemented. Like if you want to enter some division, u need to fight with penultimate team of that division of current tournament.
If you lose, new team go to F division directly (so that new team choose accurately which division to try to enter).

I strongly believe any variant of strict rule (same for all teams) is better, than customized individual solutions, which destroys the value of places in divisions, and destroys the atmosphere, where you have to earn your place. Instead we getting disbelief in the administration, and suspicions of nepotism , etc.

So the rules should be same for all in fair tournament, not "more same" for some teams, which administration decides are better then others. =)

IMHO ofc. I m not gonna argue further, but wanted to speak out.
In any case, big respects to admins of this great tourney.

P.S. "We asked all the teams in division B if they wanted to move up. None did."
It shouldnt be asked, its a competition, all teams goes 1 spot higher, and that's it. Don't want to play? Goodbye, right? Admins aren't mums to persuade someone)
 
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Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Well strict rules are better anyway instead of we will do anything we want "if we feel we need to".

Some kind of entry-promotion matches can be implemented. Like if you want to enter some division, u need to fight with penultimate team of that division of current tournament.
If you lose, new team go to F division directly (so that new team choose accurately which division to try to enter).

I strongly believe any variant of strict rule (same for all teams) is better, than customized individual solutions, which destroys the value of places in divisions, and destroys the atmosphere, where you have to earn your place. Instead we getting disbelief in the administration, and suspicions of nepotism , etc.

So the rules should be same for all in fair tournament, not "more same" for some teams, which administration decides are better then others. =)

IMHO ofc. I m not gonna argue further, but wanted to speak out.
In any case, big respects to admins of this great tourney.

I absolutly see your point.
We had a long discussion about the same topic on Tuesday and in the end we agreed that filling spots is better for the tournament than just ranking everybody up for every free spot.

Both options are good but one seems to be overall better.

If we find enough time between sign up and the start of the tournament it would be great to have evaluation matches but for so many teams it's already tough to have one match per week.
 

Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Last remark, at least consider such variant - that div A spots never can be given in any way, only deserved by earning 1st place in div B and winning promotion match (or without promotion match if A team disbanded).
And if both conditions done, team B1 hasn't choice to deny. (lose some of your tourney matches or promotion match if you don't want to move higher, its simple right)


I doubt we can promise that. There is no point in giving a division A spot to a team that might not want to be there. (Like I said: before season 3 no team wanted to join there)
But since in the new season the divisions get smaller I hope that this kind of situation won't be much of an issue anymore.

I think we have now reached a point where more teams want to be in division A than there a spots there.

Edit: That isn't supposed to mean we won't ever do that. For example right now the top clans of division B are really strong and have a legitimate claim for division A if we happen to have a free spot.
 
Well strict rules are better anyway instead of we will do anything we want "if we feel we need to".

Some kind of entry-promotion matches can be implemented. Like if you want to enter some division, u need to fight with penultimate team of that division of current tournament.
If you lose, new team go to F division directly (so that new team choose accurately which division to try to enter).

What you are proposing there is a different tournament.

..............


There is obviously aplace for other tournaments, for single elimination and group stages etc. The problem is that for those, I would argue more serious, tournaments the game simply is not ready yet. Those will come when we have a stable game with more tools for tourney admins.

This tournament is aimed at providing fun for all players. As Deacon once said Kitten stomping isnt fun.

The lower div teams already complain about the skill differential and the lack of competitive play when they have higher skilled teams in their div. They should not suffer because some higher skilled players cannot get along or some teams cannot retain their players.

Nor are the admins here to compensate for lack of leadership ability in some clans.

While each course of action has its pro and cons, for this tournament designed to keep all teams amused while we wait for a more tournament-friendly game, we have considered the way we do things to be the least worst option.

The 2 principles we stick to are that each team progressing from one BEAST to the next has earned the spot in which they finished the last tournament and that teams should play against teams of roughly equal skill level.

When teams reform it causes a problem but any hard and fast rule is going to work worst for some teams doing our best to place teams, where we have a spare place, where their skill level seems to be roughly comparable and with the consent of the team is the best we can do while sticking to the core principles.

It is not perfect but other options are worse.

It should also be remembered that we dont know how many teams will sign up to the next beast, so we dont know how many divisions there will be and we dont know whether there will be a division which has to have more teams and therefore a non RR system.

Making decisions about all that and teams placement is done between the end of sign ups and the tournament's official start which is usually an extremely short period. So before saying what admins should do perhaps reflect on what it is possible to do in such a short timescale.

In addition before saying what is done in certain professional sports perhaps reflect that our tourney admins are paid a lot less for their work and do not have the same levels of staff and tools.
 

Arris

Veteran
WB
I would have never expected that we would be pointed at as example of some controversy. I wish we would be in spotlight for entirely different reason though...

The next BEAST edition will simply verify whether we made progress and we belong to that division or not. If we will be stomped then well, we will drop down and someone else will take our place. And then we will make attempts to climb back again. But for now, we will do our best to put up a fight against anyone we will have to face and use this opportunity to gain experience.

Division D was already irregular so it was kind of obvious that the end result will not be perfect for everyone.
 
If you allow new teams (whatever the reason) to start at any other place than the bottom of the league, you are encouraging two things :
- bad mannerism : why would players care about a team, or have to work their integration into an existing team, since they only have to form a group with other "free agents" to fight straight at the top next season? Why would I need to work on maintaining a good team spirit, or to fit in, if I can just mistreat my teammates or even be ejected, sometimes refused by all top teams because my mentality is toxic, when I just have to regroup every season for "one shot" projects with other guys like me, and play each season straight at the top level?
- low team value : whats the point of keeping a team alive for a long time (recruiting new guys when some leave, fighting season after season to climb or reclimb the ladder and maintain a nice slot in the league), when you just have to gather a bunch of "good" players to play straight at the top?

First point damages the community (the ones that mistreat the community by leaving/disbanding lighly, or simply ignoring the effort to fit in an existing structure, just go on with their behaviour without any downside to it, thus making more teams disband, and spreading their toxic way of thinking).
Second point damages the legitimacy of the league. Because when there are no rules, or if the rules are regularly and arbitrary overruled to be "arranging" for a few individuals, why would you want to invest (time, if not money, even for amateur leagues) into something that can just be taken off you, or at least seing its value damaged, by arbitrary decisions at any moment? It's the basics of "law security", and any competitive league has rules that apply to everyone without exception, otherwise eventuallt nobody wants to be part of it.

If you are strict (just like in any other sports or e-sports league that exists) about starting a new team at the bottom, you will see eventually the number of disbanding or newly created "very strong" teams drop. Leaders will care about their longly invested teams, and players will try to fit in the existing structures.
You can believe me, I have some experience about this in two real sports important leagues, and this is just the only way things can work. Trying to get around or be lenient just damages the project, which will never grow or even eventually fall.

But I guess experience can be earned the hard way. :p

GL anyways, and thank you for the hours you put in. Overall you are doing a very nice job imo.

Kwen.
 
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OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
It's pretty silly to pretend we can't use our judgement and experience to determine the place of some teams in some circumstances. If Div A teams disband and reform with similar players, it's a complete waste of time to force them into Div D (or E, F, whatever) where new teams will face them and be stomped. And we know this is extremely common from both Warband and BL. You're right that being strict would encourage some teams to stay together, but I'd argue this also hurts the competitivity as well, since teams that are not successful and need fresh players/synergy will be not be incentivised to look for new opportunities.

This is a small scene and we all play for fun. If this was a regular for-money league with real jobs and livelihoods on the line then sure, and in general I think we should be pretty strict - we were perfectly happy to be put in the lowest division this time around despite being one of the most successful teams in MnB, due to little BL experience - but enforcing a zero-exceptions rule is too inflexible.

There's also plenty of loopholes e.g. just keeping the same team name but completely changing the roster, then requesting a name change. etc.
 
The next BEAST edition will simply verify whether we made progress and we belong to that division or not. If we will be stomped then well, we will drop down and someone else will take our place. And then we will make attempts to climb back again. But for now, we will do our best to put up a fight against anyone we will have to face and use this opportunity to gain experience.
I just realized IPL outclassed RM2 too. Regardless of that i wish you good luck and success in Division E.
 
wait what?
I am still owed pay for the last 4 tourneys then.
@Callum where do I need to send my bank information :iamamoron:


It's pretty silly to pretend we can't use our judgement and experience to determine the place of some teams in some circumstances. If Div A teams disband and reform with similar players, it's a complete waste of time to force them into Div D (or E, F, whatever) where new teams will face them and be stomped. And we know this is extremely common from both Warband and BL. You're right that being strict would encourage some teams to stay together, but I'd argue this also hurts the competitivity as well, since teams that are not successful and need fresh players/synergy will be not be incentivised to look for new opportunities.

This is a small scene and we all play for fun. If this was a regular for-money league with real jobs and livelihoods on the line then sure, and in general I think we should be pretty strict - we were perfectly happy to be put in the lowest division this time around despite being one of the most successful teams in MnB, due to little BL experience - but enforcing a zero-exceptions rule is too inflexible.

There's also plenty of loopholes e.g. just keeping the same team name but completely changing the roster, then requesting a name change. etc.

Exactly

AE were exemplary while we were placing for BEAST4, just wanting to play and being totally unconcerned about which div they were placed in.
 
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OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I just realized IPL outclassed RM2 too. Regardless of that i wish you good luck and success in Division E.
Without round robin it's inevitable that the arbitrary cut off point in a league is going to create some inaccuracies, another week of matches would fix those but create a few more, and so on until everyone played each other. You shouldn't look at Div D as an exact ranking of performance, but a competition for the top 2 spots where everyone at the top of the league had the hardest matches.

Moving to round robin fixes all of it going forward though.
 
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