Project Zomboid

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Moss

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Eh, they had it constantly backed up between two different systems with fortnightly-ish complete back-ups online.

To be honest that seems perfectly appropriate for a small scale indie-dev, especially one on such a massively low budget. It's not like they were keeping the computers in a shed out the back, it's just the '4chan elite' over at reddit being their usual **** hat selves.
 

Sir Prince

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Merlkir said:
Vadermath said:
Another computer in the very same room does not qualify as good external backup, Merl :???:

I don't think "from machine to machine" meant to a computer in the same room.
Except it did, the other laptop was the other machine.
I'm honestly not surprised they've had yet another ****up (even if it wasn't their fault), and I'm glad I didn't pay into this disaster of a project. I'll be amazed if it actually gets finished at the rate they suffer setbacks.

I feel sorry for them for getting robbed :sad:
 

Sir Timothi

I don't really understand the community. The more you make the developers feel like ****, the less they want to develop the game you're making them feel like **** over. Vicious cycle.
 

DSparil

Baron
Moss said:
it's just the '4chan elite' over at reddit being their usual **** hat selves.

Actually it's just reddit from what I've seen. The people at /v/ just laughed their asses off since they have always thought of the game as something that belongs on newgrounds not a "pay for" game.

Moss said:
Eh, they had it constantly backed up between two different systems with fortnightly-ish complete back-ups online.

To be honest that seems perfectly appropriate for a small scale indie-dev, especially one on such a massively low budget.

Indie and budget aside, we are talking about their source of income here, they should have been more responsible and careful with it.
 

Sir Prince

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D'Sparil said:
Moss said:
it's just the '4chan elite' over at reddit being their usual **** hat selves.

Actually it's just reddit from what I've seen. The people at /v/ just laughed their ass off since they have always thought of the game as something that belongs on newgrounds not a "pay for" game.
Most of the Reddit comments and RPS comments are criticizing the lack of backups. Most of the comments about it being a scam have a bunch of sarcastic replies.

EDIT: Unless you're looking in /r/gaming, that's like reading youtube comments. Although apparently 'Binky' went on Reddit and swore at a lot of people.
 

Swadius 2.0

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D'Sparil said:
This guy seems quite stupid to me. I mean, his whole excuse is that he lived in what he thought was a secure place, he had all the stuff in just 2 laptops and didn't possibly think they would get stolen. OK but what if...  what if... THE HARD DRIVE BIT THE DUST? or some other malfunction happenned? didn't think of that, oh bright one?

Unless it's an old laptop or an old hard drive, I think it's quite reasonable to assume that the hard drive isn't going to bite the dust. Besides, since they did keep it on two laptops, this should exponentially cut down on the hard drive busting and destroying all the existing data.
I personally think it's quite unreasonable on the other hand to suppose that people are supposed to keep everything secure from every conceivable threat. We don't know anything about what the break ins in their neighborhood, it might be quite reasonable to expect that the chances of being burgled is quite low in their area or might not. We don't know, therefore judgments like that they should have expected it to happen runs quite low for me. This is also assuming that people are responsible for knowing how much burglary goes on in their neighborhoods. It would certainly be good for people to know, but I don't think that its expected that people know the specific details of it.
 

Raz

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Although I feel for them, as soon as you start charging people money you should be more careful with this kind of thing.
 

Swadius 2.0

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Absolutely, though of course that depends on the contract and what understanding it was agreed upon. If all they promised was that they'll finish the game, a set back like this doesn't matter. If they gave dates for completion or patches, they would of course be responsible for their own damages.
 

DSparil

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Swadius said:
I personally think it's quite unreasonable on the other hand to suppose that people are supposed to keep everything secure from every conceivable threat.

That would be an extreme, but what they did was pretty much the opposite. We are talking about their jobs here, their source of income, responsible adults take meassures to keep their source of income safe (aka "don't do stupid **** at work") because not having one means no food on the table. An able accountant or architect doesn't lose lots of work because he forgot his briefcase in the taxi cab, making a backup takes a minute.
 

Sethaniel

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Think of it this way: his workplace got robbed. That's not really something an employee should be held accountable for.
 

Sir Prince

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When the workpalce is your home and there are 2 out of 4 'employees' then yes, yes it is your problem.
 

DSparil

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Sethaniel said:
Think of it this way: his workplace got robbed. That's not really something an employee should be held accountable for.

Yeah, if he sold some sort of tangible product and some ****er entered his place and stole all of it then yes, I would feel sorry for him. But he works with data and doesn't even bother to make regular online backups or at least in an pendrive and what's more, he throws a tantrum wondering why some of his clients are pissed for his irresponsibility instead of feeling sorry for him.
 

Sethaniel

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I know it's dumb for him to not take those precautions, I'm just saying that you wouldn't really expect your workplace, where you keep a large body of your work, to get robbed. He screwed up by not making any recent external backups(IIRC), something you'd do when you spend most of your time slaving away on the computer and couldn't be bothered to make backups all the damn time. We all learn from that mistake sooner or later; it's a little harsh to call him stupid for that mistake, or for him getting *****y at people. You'd be pretty ****ing cranky too if you just found out that you got robbed and people don't really give a **** about that fact, they're just concerned about the ****ing game you're making.

@Sir Prince: I'm not sure I get what you mean.
 

Moss

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D'Sparil said:
Moss said:
it's just the '4chan elite' over at reddit being their usual **** hat selves.
Actually it's just reddit from what I've seen. The people at /v/ just laughed their asses off since they have always thought of the game as something that belongs on newgrounds not a "pay for" game.
I know, but as far as I'm concerned Reddit is nothing but 4chan's overflow of wankers. The only difference between them and chaners is that the folks on reddit *think* they're better.
 

Sir Prince

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Wow, a loose group of people having delusions that they are better than another loose group of people just becuase they go (or don't go) to a website? It's not like Taleworlds is any better, or any more cohesive and unified in their opinions. As far as I used to be concerned, everyone in the USA was a rude fatty redneck, but I grew out of that generalisation like a decade ago or something.
 

Swadius 2.0

Grandmaster Knight
D'Sparil said:
Swadius said:
I personally think it's quite unreasonable on the other hand to suppose that people are supposed to keep everything secure from every conceivable threat.

That would be an extreme, but what they did was pretty much the opposite. We are talking about their jobs here, their source of income, responsible adults take meassures to keep their source of income safe (aka "don't do stupid **** at work") because not having one means no food on the table. An able accountant or architect doesn't lose lots of work because he forgot his briefcase in the taxi cab, making a backup takes a minute.

There is a stark difference between a person forgetting their suit case, cell phone, or laptop and this case though. A person forgetting their stuff is, generally, their own fault. Indie Stone case were the victims of an illegal act. Why this would matter is because it plays a very big part on our reasonable expectations of a person in the context of other people interfering.

For this I would like to propose an analogy, lets say that they were driving on the highway. They've taken precautions, not only do they follow traffic laws to a reasonable manner, they also look out for dangerous drivers that wouldn't follow traffic laws and would endanger those around them. Lets say the highway was notorious for speeders and racers. It would be expected that the drivers who use this highway routinely know this and take precautions against this. Notice however, that if they do get hit by these drivers, that we wouldn't hold it against them. The important thing here is that we don't tend to blame the people who are victims of other people breaking the law. People who die in car crashes who were driving perfectly fine aren't blameworthy because they aren't expected to take any more precautions in a reasonable interpretation of traffic law against someone driving irrationally and illegally on the street.

A lot of this depends however, on just how prevalent burglaries are in their neighborhood and how well known it is. I don't know how the status of it. I guess it's like saying a person is responsible for their loss of mobility in a violent mugging because they didn't take certain precautions against it. There are situations where its warranted, but it depends on the prevalence of violent muggings in the area. It would be unreasonable to expect someone to guard against such muggings in an area where it's not prevalent for the same reasons why people aren't expected to take precautions for falling space debris. There would be too many things to take precautions for that would damage our important interests. Even if we do take all the small precautions, we would be wasting a huge amount of our lives doing it.

We can only guard against those dangers that have a reality to them. What this has to do with the case is that the criticism that they didn't backup their work offsite depends largely on whether there are important enough factors to warrant such an action be expected. I don't know anything about their area or their burglary or crime rates, and I suspect most people commenting on this also don't know as well (but maybe you do and you are right for criticizing them for blatantly ignoring their seedy neighborhood).
 

Sir Prince

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I think if Lemmy hadn't flipped out so quickly (and if they hadn't immediately blogged about it after calling the police before even telling hte otherh alf of the team) it the reaction to it wouldn't have been so bad. They totally ****ed up with the PR and it's not like a large segment of any online following is well behaved even with good PR (Notch seems to be pretty good with not flipping out publicly despite the thousands of whiny, annoying, and poorly-written spam/hate mail he gets.

They still should have done a better job of backing up but I don't think they are complete idiots because of it. Although I don't believe in curses, I feel like they are cursed.
 

Sethaniel

Grandmaster Knight
Yeah, it's one heck of a PR disaster for the team. I guess it goes without saying that any job that requires you to be a face on the internet requires nerves of steel. I'm fairly certain it's the cries of "you're incompetent" and "what a whiny *****" etc. that got to him in the first place, much less the constructed criticisms.
 

DSparil

Baron
Swadius said:
We can only guard against those dangers that have a reality to them. What this has to do with the case is that the criticism that they didn't backup their work offsite depends largely on whether there are important enough factors to warrant such an action be expected. I don't know anything about their area or their burglary or crime rates, and I suspect most people commenting on this also don't know as well (but maybe you do and you are right for criticizing them for blatantly ignoring their seedy neighborhood).

I don't blame them for getting robbed, I blame them for not backing up their latest files, I don't care if they got robbed or their laptos blew or they threw lots of water at them or whatever, the thing is they didn't back their files, a standard procedure nowadays and one that takes little time. How about he stops reading emails for a second and backs up the work that costs him so much to make?. Being indie or having a small workforce or living in a certain place is no excuse for that.

Sethaniel said:
Yeah, it's one heck of a PR disaster for the team. I guess it goes without saying that any job that requires you to be a face on the internet requires nerves of steel. I'm fairly certain it's the cries of "you're incompetent" and "what a whiny *****" etc. that got to him in the first place, much less the constructed criticisms.
Getting **** from kids in the internet is nothing, I can't believe he broke down because of it. What the hell would he have done in another job if his boss or team got angry at him for something? jump down the balcony?
 
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