Problems with Skirmish Mode as of May 2021

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jon01

Knight at Arms
VOIP will improve the game tremendously, some people here don't have a clue what they're saying. It should be able to be disabled, sure, but pretty much every game mode would benefit from it greatly.
There used to be a voice chat feature in Warband's Matchmaking when it first went up.


As long as it can be disabled, I don't see the harm.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
There used to be a voice chat feature in Warband's Matchmaking when it first went up.


As long as it can be disabled, I don't see the harm.
That clip says it all really :razz:

This game could be so much better if you could coordinate easier like this, and I'm a bit disappointed that VOIP wont be coming to Siege because it would be amazing making coordinated plays on that mode. Maybe a proximity voice would work better in the larger modes.

I understand people that don't want to hear abuse or spam, which is why you should have the option to mute or disable, but to say that VOIP should not be added in any form is ridiculous and will hold this game back a lot.
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Damage output is too high aswell.
Bumps are stupidly powerfull.
The only thing to counter a heavy horse is throwing weapons.
Everyone and their mother can get a heavy horse without earning it.
No progression, no reward for being a skilled player.
 
Damage output is too high aswell.
Bumps are stupidly powerfull.
Damage is too high because cav is always fullspeed. Even when standing still you can press WW and stab for maximus speed bonus.
Bumps too powerfull because of acceleration. So it all comes down to maneuver and speed.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
Hey since this thread covers a lot of topics I’ll give you some updates on the combat related things we are working on, many of which we announced a while ago in the “Plans For MP” thread, or in responses throughout the forum. Many of which won't come with the next beta but sometime after that.

We will do some sort of testing with you for these changes before putting them live, but I can't say yet when and how it will happen. Everything below is subject to change, especially with the test feedback we are hoping to gather for it.
  • Increasing the spear damage window
  • Fixing horse team damage (this will actually allow for teammates to rear friendly horses)
  • Reduced turn speed for infantry (while attacking)
  • Increasing infantry speed + acceleration (same degree as for skirmishers)
  • Decreasing the WW and SS ability (check below)
  • Adjusting shield hitboxes in melee to be wider for wrong direction blocks
  • And some things regarding the blocking system and stuns (which I can't share details for yet)
About cav
I agree with decreasing cav top speeds and accelerations. We are definitely looking into it, same goes for adjusting couch lance effectiveness.

Talking of speed, we will decrease the effectiveness of double tapping WW and SS, for heavier horses. It will be slightly affected by the horse weight, but mostly by the barding weight. We made it so that no class will have a better WW and SS ability than they currently do. It will basically only affect heavy horse classes and if you chose the barding perk.

nzxWm.png

When pressing SS with a catapharct vs nomad

About throwing spears
We will keep them in the game but make the trade off bigger, probably by removing all javelins from the skirmisher if the chose the throwing spear perk. It will go hand in hand with the skill perk changes that will encourage troops to stick with their special weapons (but not forcing it).

I am not trying to shut this discussion down. It's of great help to us as many of the points above have resulted from the feedback you gave us. It would be great to shift the discussion to things that you believe are missing in the list above.
 
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Golodir

Banned
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
  • the melee animations for swings should be tightened so that they start closer to the front of the player and end quicker so as to encourage accuracy (will need some combat speed tweaks most likely),
  • needs a slight turncap increase, think this is already in the works,
  • blocking hitboxes need to be made more reliable for shields, it's far too easy to hit around them. If this is due to the shield directional blocking, make the blocking dynamic like several community suggestions,
  • reduce the weight of shields, make movement speed closer across classes, the difference between combat speed/blocking speed/acceleration etc overall needs tweaked further. The aim should be to discourage hit and run style melee and instead encourage close trades of blows. If people can slip out of combat too easily, something is wrong. May need a combat testing session,
  • add polearm stab-stun like in Warband (fixes cav point blank spam and using javs in melee),
  • fix chambers, they were not "too easy" in Warband (??), if you have a better working idea great, if not go with what works,
  • completely remove delay of releasing ur swing after the hold,
  • reduce the block delay to warband level,
  • fix random stuns, make them be based on weapon weight, not amount of random cats passing behind AVRC window (aka make it depends only on ONE FACTOR),
  • either completely remove the stances or leave it just for visual purposes, without actually affecting the speed of your swing,
  • remove/fix perfect blocks so they work with the shields,
  • enable the rest of profficiencies. atm only riding/shooting is enabled.
everything from this list should be included
 

Livso

Recruit
That honestly sounds very good, what i fear tho is that archers are gonna become insanely powerfull.
 

Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I thought the entire point of pilum was to make a shield useless by it being hard to pull out. Why can they be used again?
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
About throwing spears
We will keep them in the game but make the trade off bigger, probably by removing all javelins from the skirmisher if the chose the throwing spear perk. It will go hand in hand with the skill perk changes that will encourage troops to stick with their special weapons (but not forcing it).
Is there possibly any chance for them to be nerfed? They have such a huge impact on round outcomes in the current state, even if skirmishers don't get javelins. The problem is with the throwing spears as a concept, being ranged oneshot death sticks. It's really not fun for anyone to be randomly tapped by them, they're basically couch lance for inf.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
  • Increasing the spear damage window
Won't this be a buff to both cav lancing and throwing weapons in melee mode, already an issue? What's the thinking behind this? (I don't think spear infantry are even bad tbh they are just out performed by more broken things).
  • Reduced turn speed for infantry
While attacking I presume you mean, if so 👍
  • Increasing infantry speed + acceleration (same degree as for skirmishers)
I don't know if this is really a healthy change, it definitely helps inf but it has knock-on consequences to gameplay and melee. Inf are already really fast in combat to the point of feeling like a racecar. High acceleration also leads to that weird kind of hit and run, or figure of eight style fighting which I don't think is intended. Maybe it's fine, would need to test, but I feel like shield weight reduction might have a better impact without worsening the disparities issue.
  • Decreasing the WW and SS ability (check below)
  • Adjusting shield hitboxes in melee to be wider for wrong direction blocks
👍
I am not trying to shut this discussion down. It's of great help to us as many of the points above have resulted from the feedback you gave us. It would be great to shift the discussion to things that you believe are missing in the list above.
I'd suggest:

-Animation tweaks to feints and how far back attacks are readied for swide swings
-polearm stuns
-cav pushing people around
-movement speed debuff on flinch
 
The problem is they removed skirmish from North America and I want my 50 dollars back because their software is broken
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
everything from this list should be included
We discussed the whole list in the team when you posted it. Most of the things mentioned are covered by what we are working on.
About the other stuff:

Block delay + Stun
I can't talk about the blocking changes in depth yet, but we hope to address “block delay” with it. But to be fair about it, the block delay in Bannerlord is actually shorter than in warband, in many cases. The reason sometimes blocking is delayed is because of our blending from certain hand positions to the actual blocks. This will be changed.

Same for stuns, we are addressing those, especially for shield users, but I can't go into detail as its not finished and properly tested yet.

Chambers
Chambers are unnecessarily hard to do atm and by that not consistent. There was this great tutorial on youtube, but to be fair this will only work in very sterile 1v1 or against bots. Chambers will require some work from us, but it won't be happening anytime soon.

Enabling Proficiencies
I think there is actually more behind this than just having more depth. I believe why you and others are asking for this is because infantry doesn't win as well as it should in melee scenarios. And we agree it would be good to give them passive buff so they perform better. (same for the other classes with their proficiencies)

We want to do it in a slightly different way though. With skill perks, that will replace or be added onto existing equipment perks. There will give you proffincies in the weapon you pick, sometimes also for certain scenarios (similar to singleplayer perks). This allows us to bundle weapons, like a spear, with a passive buff granting you extra damage against horses. By not giving melee skill perks to archers for example, we can achieve the same effect.
So to no turn melee combat into a large balancing fest of backlog melee class proficiencies.
-----------
(About the "Increased the spear damage window"):
Won't this be a buff to both cav lancing and throwing weapons in melee mode, already an issue? What's the thinking behind this? (I don't think spear infantry are even bad tbh they are just out performed by more broken things).
We are making spear thrusts deal damage earlier, to enable infantry that is up close to a horse, to damage it. Also it will make it so that if you do a very late stab on a fast moving horse, with will do damage and not just do an animation bounce, cause it wasnt inside the damage window yet.

But yeah this will also affect cav, but their stab animations are a bit different. They are in the damage window anyway already, on their way down to the infantry.

(About increasing infantry speeds):
I don't know if this is really a healthy change, it definitely helps inf but it has knock-on consequences to gameplay and melee. Inf are already really fast in combat to the point of feeling like a racecar. High acceleration also leads to that weird kind of hit and run, or figure of eight style fighting which I don't think is intended. Maybe it's fine, would need to test, but I feel like shield weight reduction might have a better impact without worsening the disparities issue.
Yes, I was worried about it as well. As you may remember one year ago we had a similar test in the combat test, where the increased speed would make people run past each other a lot and swing wildly. But the change we are doing has a different ratio of acceleration and it actually feels quite good, Still we obviously need to test it again and look out for it.
 
We discussed the whole list in the team when you posted it. Most of the things mentioned are covered by what we are working on.
About the other stuff:

Block delay + Stun
I can't talk about the blocking changes in depth yet, but we hope to address “block delay” with it. But to be fair about it, the block delay in Bannerlord is actually shorter than in warband, in many cases. The reason sometimes blocking is delayed is because of our blending from certain hand positions to the actual blocks. This will be changed.

Same for stuns, we are addressing those, especially for shield users, but I can't go into detail as its not finished and properly tested yet.

Chambers
Chambers are unnecessarily hard to do atm and by that not consistent. There was this great tutorial on youtube, but to be fair this will only work in very sterile 1v1 or against bots. Chambers will require some work from us, but it won't be happening anytime soon.

Enabling Proficiencies
I think there is actually more behind this than just having more depth. I believe why you and others are asking for this is because infantry doesn't win as well as it should in melee scenarios. And we agree it would be good to give them passive buff so they perform better. (same for the other classes with their proficiencies)

We want to do it in a slightly different way though. With skill perks, that will replace or be added onto existing equipment perks. There will give you proffincies in the weapon you pick, sometimes also for certain scenarios (similar to singleplayer perks). This allows us to bundle weapons, like a spear, with a passive buff granting you extra damage against horses. By not giving melee skill perks to archers for example, we can achieve the same effect.
So to no turn melee combat into a large balancing fest of backlog melee class proficiencies.
-----------
(About the "Increased the spear damage window"):

We are making spear thrusts deal damage earlier, to enable infantry that is up close to a horse, to damage it. Also it will make it so that if you do a very late stab on a fast moving horse, with will do damage and not just do an animation bounce, cause it wasnt inside the damage window yet.

But yeah this will also affect cav, but their stab animations are a bit different. They are in the damage window anyway already, on their way down to the infantry.

(About increasing infantry speeds):

Yes, I was worried about it as well. As you may remember one year ago we had a similar test in the combat test, where the increased speed would make people run past each other a lot and swing wildly. But the change we are doing has a different ratio of acceleration and it actually feels quite good, Still we obviously need to test it again and look out for it.
Any reason why multiplayer was removed from na? Any reason why the performance has gotten worse since beta? Any news on refunds for people who don't like your broken software?
 

Neyzen Tevfik

Knight at Arms

since 2hs are doing bad in skirmish. Maybe you guys could add this from singleplayer to multiplayer (Thats normally a sp perk.It is not a mod it is offical thing done by Tw). It could serve as slight nerf to throwings and adds a new funny mechanic to the gameplay.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
(About the "Increased the spear damage window"):

We are making spear thrusts deal damage earlier, to enable infantry that is up close to a horse, to damage it. Also it will make it so that if you do a very late stab on a fast moving horse, with will do damage and not just do an animation bounce, cause it wasnt inside the damage window yet.

But yeah this will also affect cav, but their stab animations are a bit different. They are in the damage window anyway already, on their way down to the infantry.
If it's just about getting rid of those annoying bounces on moving cav, could we not just make it so the rearing threshold is extremely low to the point where all you need is simply a polearm being stabbed into horse going over a certain speed threshold at the correct angle? When first suggested you seemed worried that it might lead to cav being perma-reared (apologies if misquoting, just from memory) but this seems to end up with the same scenario (a good thing imo as I think any cav player will adapt), but now with unintended buffs to melee spears and especially melee javs? Basically if it's mainly about cav, why not address the cav side, not the spear?

Will also impact cav v cav where stab spamming at each other is already prevalent and now will presumably be more so since less bounces.
(About increasing infantry speeds):

Yes, I was worried about it as well. As you may remember one year ago we had a similar test in the combat test, where the increased speed would make people run past each other a lot and swing wildly. But the change we are doing has a different ratio of acceleration and it actually feels quite good, Still we obviously need to test it again and look out for it.
Sure, sounds good looking forward to see how it plays out.
 
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