Possible balance change for the lance.....

[Little Raven]

It's simple, it's elegant, it doesn't require nerfing couched lance damage, and it just might work.

Make couching the only possible attack for a lance.

Seriously, does anyone really think that 'poking' someone with a lance is a realistic attack? Nobody can effectively handle a 15' metal pole that way. A lance really only had one attack mode. A devestating one, certainly, but very limited. The situation is even more ludicrious when a you have a guy on foot with a lance and shield prodding some swordman into submission with his vastly superior range. Madness, I tell you!

The beauty of this solution is that it would require very little in the way of extra coding, and keeps the lance as the awesome mounted weapon it should be. But like real knights, the smart player will always keep a backup weapon for situations where the lance isn't going to cut it.

What do you guys think?

 

[Ancientwanker]

Sounds like it could be confusing for the AI. It would have a weapon that only works on the charge. Easy for the PC to work around but...

Id just like to see them break every so often after a warrider or couched attack.

 

[Little Raven]

Hm...good point. I had forgotten that angle. The AI would need to be taught when to break out the lance. (or, more importantly, when to put it away)

But the AI already makes decisions like that, even if the results can sometimes be a little puzzling. Attackers switch between melee and ranged weapons. The lance could actually work very similarly.

A more important question is does the AI use couched attacks at all? I don't think I've ever had it used on me....

 

[Licken Chicken]

I really like this idea. Making the lance viable only in couched mode is absolutely brilliant. It ballances realism with fun. The problem with having the lance break upon impact however, is that while it would be realistic, it would certainly make the game less enjoyable (think of the wasted cash if nothing else).

 

[Worbah]

If it was like arrows/shields/horses, you would get it back after the battle.

 

[Destichado]

PLEASE make this so!

 

[KnZ]

I've thought of the same, really. How could a man make a hit w/ 3metre-long lance while of foot? A complete rubbish. It is that heavy (it is made so not to break from a single blow into a plate cuirass of your enemy) that the only thing you could do with it is to hold it in horisontal position and, maybe, thrust it once a year .
One more thing about lances, spears, axes and all other weapons that have a striking part on the end of the pole - they should have not only the maximum, but also minimum range of attack, 'cause I'm sometimes confused when dismounted lancer standing in the range of my falchion delivers me 19 damage with his lance, although his lance's striking part if far beyond my back.

 

[Destichado]

Hey now, don't go to *that* extreme.

A lance is a pole weapon like any other pole weapon. It's merely a balanced, stout spear with a handguard. BUT, if it's being used in one hand -like any other pole weapon- it's extraordinarily easy for one's enemy to deflect and control the point.

I would like to see this implamented for all one-handed spear-type weapons. Right now, they're overpowerd on foot, and it's too difficult to close to sword reach and get inside the spears effective range.

 

[Ancientwanker]

Foot troops have used longer polearms than the lance from M@B. Ive read that the ancient greeks and macedonians used very long spears and eventually pikes in their phalanx. The Sarisa could be up to 5 meters or so. Ive even read longer estimates.

I think eventually they strapped their sheild to their arm and used both hands to support it though. I really havent looked at polearms much in the game so I dont know how armagan modeled one handed versus two handed spears.

 

[Little Raven]

Right now, they're overpowerd on foot, and it's too difficult to close to sword reach and get inside the spears effective range.

As far as I can tell, weapons don't have an 'inside range' in this engine, which means a spear is just as effective for close up work as a sword.

Which definately causes problems.

 

[Little Raven]

Foot troops have used longer polearms than the lance from M@B. Ive read that the ancient greeks and macedonians used very long spears and eventually pikes in their phalanx. The Sarisa could be up to 5 meters or so. Ive even read longer estimates.

Foot troops have used long polearms, yes. But only in highly specialized applications.

Get one man, give him a 20 foot spear, and stick him against a swordsman, without a shield even. I promise you he'll be dead in seconds, unless the swordsman is a total idiot. As Destichado said, if you have a 20 foot long pole, it's extremely easy for your enemy to control the tip. And once he gets inside your strike range, it's all over.

Now, if you take 200 guys, give them all long spears, and train them to operate as a group, the situation changes. Now they can form ranks, cover each other, and bring multiple weapons to bear on a single target, something that is much more difficult for swordsmen to do. The Greeks and Swiss proved multiple times that a well trained group of pikemen is a power to be reckoned with.

But those kinds of formation are well outside the scope of the game. This game focuses on the single warrior, and no single warrior in his right mind would wield a long spear in real life. He'll almost never be able to use it effectively. Right now, in M&B, you can be very deadly with just a long spear, but only because of certain inconsistencies in the engine.

 

[bewing77]

Foot troops have used longer polearms than the lance from M@B. Ive read that the ancient greeks and macedonians used very long spears and eventually pikes in their phalanx. The Sarisa could be up to 5 meters or so. Ive even read longer estimates.

I think eventually they strapped their sheild to their arm and used both hands to support it though. I really havent looked at polearms much in the game so I dont know how armagan modeled one handed versus two handed spears.

Yes, but theese pikes wheren't really wielded like a weapon, they where used to form a wall of spears. Mainly a defensive weapon. Pikemen had secondary weapons like swords to use up close. And, theese pikes where two handed.

 

[Ancientwanker]

Yes, thats all true. I play Rome:total war too. heh.

I guess I should have quoted the person I was responding to.

Knz said, "How could a man make a hit w/ 3metre-long lance while of foot? A complete rubbish."

 

[GreenKnight]

I guess my question would be what about the Arena? Obviously, one should try not to get unhorsed, but if an enemy lancer or maybe an archer gets in a lucky shot, it can happen. Then, you'd be left with a weapon that simply doesn't do anything. Would a lancer be given a backup weapon?

 

[Little Raven]

I guess my question would be what about the Arena?

Personally, I think everyone should be given a dagger in addition to their main weapon, but that's just me.

Seriously, though, it should be easy to balance the Arena based on new weapon effects when/if they come to pass, especially since the Arena doesn't have much in the way of balance now. I definitely don't think we should be afraid of altering weapon effects because of how the new ones may play in the Arena.

 

[Captain Black]

I got into a bad situation lastnight where I got put to the wall and held in place. There were two footmen with spears sandwitched between me and another rider, the rider had a spear as well.

Now I couldnt get my charger going again and I couldent get my sword attack because 3 guys were wailing on me with the shaft of their spears, the points never touched me. But I was getting my ass kicked even though I had the right weapon for that situation.

My poor heavy charger took the worst of it, but it didnt make me feel any better about it. To top it all off my wife came in to lecture me about my colorful string of profanity. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

C.

 

[KnZ]

2Ancientwalker
Yes, you're right of course. But only in case of light (maybe long, yes, but LIGHT) spears, which were the equipment of spartians and greeks. The case of lances is a bit more interesting. As far as I know, a medium medieval lance' weight was about 5kgs - it was almost purely made of metal (except for tournament lances - they were made of wood to crack into pieces after a good hit to show whether there was a strike or not). And, as I've said, lance's length was about 3m. Now imagine how hard would it be to hold this weapon in horisontal position! That requires quite a training... Maybe some well-trained people could do a thrust attack while on foot, but it would be slow, clumsy and it won't pierce even the lightest armor, so we can consider it almost useless.
Btw, I've played R:TW too) Just as M:TW and S:TW =))

 

[DaLagga]

ahhh!!! what is it with you people and having to abbreviate the titles of games you mention? For goodness sakes! spell them out please. Thankyou for your attention

 

[ironpants]

Seriously, does anyone really think that 'poking' someone with a lance is a realistic attack? Nobody can effectively handle a 15' metal pole that way. A lance really only had one attack mode. A devestating one, certainly, but very limited. The situation is even more ludicrious when a you have a guy on foot with a lance and shield prodding some swordman into submission with his vastly superior range. Madness, I tell you!

While I agree that ludicrous polearm situations happen frequently in m&b, this solution only addresses the lance. Polearms in general exhibit signs that the core combat system still needs work.

The "poking" that is seen in-game is not realistic, and also very silly looking. It's both too effective and hilariously paced.

When thrusting with a polearm, the tip comes back as far as you can reasonably initiate the attack from, and quickly. Commit to the thrust, and it will be very fast; but recovery from a full thrust is slow. If you want to jab quickly, you simply pull back and thrust shorter distances to minimize recovery time. If an opponent is so close that you cannot pull your thrusting tip back between you and him, you shouldn't be thrusting with it!

Mount & Blade absolutely needs to incorporate a minimum range for thrusting, and more polearms (such as the staffs) need swinging & hitting attacks for closer ranges. The left and right keys in combination with the attack key could perhaps initiate those alternate attacks. Once a minimum range is implemented, properly paced thrust attacks will no longer be unbalancing!

 

[Worm]

It's simple, it's elegant, it doesn't require nerfing couched lance damage, and it just might work.

Make couching the only possible attack for a lance.

Seriously, does anyone really think that 'poking' someone with a lance is a realistic attack? Nobody can effectively handle a 15' metal pole that way. A lance really only had one attack mode. A devestating one, certainly, but very limited. The situation is even more ludicrious when a you have a guy on foot with a lance and shield prodding some swordman into submission with his vastly superior range. Madness, I tell you!

The beauty of this solution is that it would require very little in the way of extra coding, and keeps the lance as the awesome mounted weapon it should be. But like real knights, the smart player will always keep a backup weapon for situations where the lance isn't going to cut it.

What do you guys think?

This is what I would suggest if you weren't suggesting it.

It looks stupid to be poking a guy with a lance. Hell, it feels stupid.