I like a lot of things about AD 1257, but there are a lot of things I don't like too. So I have to ask the question, is there any possibility that after Dr. Thomas is done with the final final version that others would be allowed to make submods of 1257? There are many things that can still be improved, namely weapon variety and castle variety. I love most of the castles, but that in all former Byzantine lands, it seems every city looks like Constantiple, which isn't historically accurate. Nor is the map entirely accurate. And there are things like gallowglasses should have a variety of claymores and axes. But I have yet to see even one two handed sword in this mod besides bastard swords, let alone a claymore, which again, isn't historically accurate. I am just trying to give some constructive criticism here, and if the final final version doesn't change things like this, then I personally would like to start a 1257 submod.
Possibility for a Submod?
- 主题发起人 hraktuus
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DrTomas 说:
My apologies. Everything I am finding shows claymores in use no earlier than the 1300s. I stand corrected.
Now when you say it depends on the person making the submod, what do you mean exactly? In my case, I'm not entirely familiar with how to mod Mount & Blade, but I do have modding experience in other games and could learn easily enough. I would stick to keeping things historically accurate. I mainly want to add a larger variety of items, a larger variety of towns and castles, and change the map to be more historically accurate. Namely, all the research I've done so far shows the Latin Empire as more or less down to a small amount of land around Constantinople by 1257. I've found nothing showing them as large as they are in this mod. It makes sense to make them larger for balance, but it simply isn't accurate. Naturally, I would want to change other factions as well. I would possibly even add some, like making the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum and the Empire of Trebizond independent rather than under the control of Ilkhanate. I understand why they are as they are in the mod, but I would personally change it unless there is a faction limit.
Anyways, I don't want to come off like I'm being overly critical. I really do love the mod. It's leaps and bounds ahead of most others. But there is almost always room for improvement. I just want to see this mod get even better.
There is also the possibility for submods set in other time periods. Personally I would prefer 1081, but I know many would prefer a later period like 1387. The amount of possibilities with 1257 as a base is almost endless.
Interestingly enough, since this has caused me to do research on two handed swords, I found out that double headed axes, of all things, we're in use during the first crusade. I have seen a few (very few) depictions of Varangians with double headed axes. The hard part would be finding a historically accurate example that has already been modeled.
Edit: After extensive research in my father's library, I was able to find one example of a great sword in use at 1250. It is in the Osprey book English Medieval Knight 1200-1300. Also, on the Varangian double headed axe, I looked in my Varangian Osprey book and there were axes with a chopping head and a spiked head. Double headed need not mean double bladed. Just wanted to clear that up. Still no records found of claymores before the 1280s, but I have Oakshott's book and will do more research.
EDIT 2: I have found a good amount of evidence dating the first claymores (claíomh mór, Irish Gaelic for great sword) circa 1250. I will continue to do research to provide stronger evidence. Note that I was never suggesting claymores in the later Scottish style with the V clover tipped guard existed in 1257, merely that claymores (Gaelic great swords) did exist at that time. And I can say without a doubt that English great swords existed at that time. I need to do more research so it is irrefutable, but so far I must say I believe what I initially thought was right, and quick research done on Google or Wikipedia provides an inaccurate answer. One must hit the books and the scholarly journals to find the truth of the matter.
Edit: After extensive research in my father's library, I was able to find one example of a great sword in use at 1250. It is in the Osprey book English Medieval Knight 1200-1300. Also, on the Varangian double headed axe, I looked in my Varangian Osprey book and there were axes with a chopping head and a spiked head. Double headed need not mean double bladed. Just wanted to clear that up. Still no records found of claymores before the 1280s, but I have Oakshott's book and will do more research.
EDIT 2: I have found a good amount of evidence dating the first claymores (claíomh mór, Irish Gaelic for great sword) circa 1250. I will continue to do research to provide stronger evidence. Note that I was never suggesting claymores in the later Scottish style with the V clover tipped guard existed in 1257, merely that claymores (Gaelic great swords) did exist at that time. And I can say without a doubt that English great swords existed at that time. I need to do more research so it is irrefutable, but so far I must say I believe what I initially thought was right, and quick research done on Google or Wikipedia provides an inaccurate answer. One must hit the books and the scholarly journals to find the truth of the matter.
Alright, the Internet on my PC is down right now. I will post pictures when I can, but the English definitely had great swords in AD 1250. If anyone has a copy of English Medieval Knight 1200-1300 from Osprey Publishing, go to panel E and look at the sword numbered 12, then go to page 62. You will clearly see number 12 marked as Great sword, c. 1250-1300. This is a well sourced book from a well respected publisher, so I tend to believe their research is correct. Two handed swords should be in this mod. It is historically inaccurate without them.
On the other hand, I am still researching claymores. I have a lead suggesting they have been around since King John, well before 1257. Something about a claymore and King John's seal. However, when I looked for the guy's sources, it was a dead link, so I can't very well say this is irrefutable evidence like the English great sword. However, the Irish should at the very least have unique swords that have ring pommels showing the tang. If you were to put claymores into the mod, they would be Irish style claymores with a ring pommel and a key style crossguard. That said, I have found plenty of pages dating the "William Wallace style" claymore to 1250, and while I have no reason to say that is false, they certainly didn't back up their date with any sources. One should also consider that claymore is just Gaelic for Great Sword, so if the English had great swords, which I have proven, then the Irish and Scots having them is not a stretch.
On the other hand, I am still researching claymores. I have a lead suggesting they have been around since King John, well before 1257. Something about a claymore and King John's seal. However, when I looked for the guy's sources, it was a dead link, so I can't very well say this is irrefutable evidence like the English great sword. However, the Irish should at the very least have unique swords that have ring pommels showing the tang. If you were to put claymores into the mod, they would be Irish style claymores with a ring pommel and a key style crossguard. That said, I have found plenty of pages dating the "William Wallace style" claymore to 1250, and while I have no reason to say that is false, they certainly didn't back up their date with any sources. One should also consider that claymore is just Gaelic for Great Sword, so if the English had great swords, which I have proven, then the Irish and Scots having them is not a stretch.
Sorry for a late reply, I've been busy.
Thank you for your research.
While Osprey is a fine resource and read it often, but it's sometimes takes it's interpretation to the extreams - so it's wise to incorporate other sources as well.
Regarding English Medieval Knight 1200-1300 and the great sword it depicts. In the drawn picture, it's clearly a bastard sword. The handle is two short for a two handed sword. Plus there is no source mentioned for this interpretation. Secondly, most of primary resources - illuminations and other visual ones, does not depict any two handed swords in this era, so even if there where some - they are not likely to be that popular or common at this era. That's why two handed swords won't appear in the mod.
Thank you for your research.
While Osprey is a fine resource and read it often, but it's sometimes takes it's interpretation to the extreams - so it's wise to incorporate other sources as well.
Regarding English Medieval Knight 1200-1300 and the great sword it depicts. In the drawn picture, it's clearly a bastard sword. The handle is two short for a two handed sword. Plus there is no source mentioned for this interpretation. Secondly, most of primary resources - illuminations and other visual ones, does not depict any two handed swords in this era, so even if there where some - they are not likely to be that popular or common at this era. That's why two handed swords won't appear in the mod.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I think the sword is clearly two handed and not a bastard sword. I've grown up with swords. I know them well. But I won't press this issue further.
My claymore research is still pending, however. If I can find this link between claymores and King John's seal, then I think we really have something. In any case, the Irish swords around at the time of 1250 did have the ring pommels. I suppose it would be difficult to find a model let to make some new swords unique to the Irish in the mod, but if it were possible, it would be beautiful. Also, if it would help, I would be willing to post pictures of pommel and crossguard variations from the period. There really should be more sword variation.
In any case, I'm really glad you looked at my research and have taken it seriously. I don't suppose you would consider putting in the shynbaulds and poleyns the knight is wearing on the same panel. It is supposed to be accurate for 1250.
My claymore research is still pending, however. If I can find this link between claymores and King John's seal, then I think we really have something. In any case, the Irish swords around at the time of 1250 did have the ring pommels. I suppose it would be difficult to find a model let to make some new swords unique to the Irish in the mod, but if it were possible, it would be beautiful. Also, if it would help, I would be willing to post pictures of pommel and crossguard variations from the period. There really should be more sword variation.
In any case, I'm really glad you looked at my research and have taken it seriously. I don't suppose you would consider putting in the shynbaulds and poleyns the knight is wearing on the same panel. It is supposed to be accurate for 1250.
That's too bad. Well, I guess that is why I ask if anyone would be allowed to make a submod. If I were to make a submod set in 1257, I would promise not to add any new items like two handed swords if it didn't meet your approval. But I think there are plenty of swords from other mods that could be added in a submod that are historically accurate. My father tells me he has even seen the Irish ring pommel swords. So if it is okay with you, after the final version is finished, I would like to ask to make a minor submod that adds new items. And then we can go from there. I would really like to make a mod set in 1081 (when Alexios I Komnenos first becomes Emperor) or maybe a bit later right after the First Crusade. I would also like to make a submod set in a later era, say 1337 or 1387, so there could be transitional plate armor. These submods would be simple enough to make, needing only to ask permission to add items from other mods and to change ownership of territory on the map. I have to say this is quickly becoming my favorite mod, and I would like to become more involved if possible.
