Poor Design Logic - War Decisions?

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Doofus

Veteran
Not a bug, just poor design, so I'll post this here. 2 somewhat related poor designs by Taleworlds.

Had 2 ongoing wars, one with Northern Empire and one with Aserai.

1) Message popped up that a Northern Empire messenger was making an offer to end the war. Clicked on it, curious what they were offering, but didn't want to end that war (wanted to get Diathma from them before ending the war). As soon as I clicked on it I was swearing to myself as I realized that once I clicked on it there was no way of putting it on hold or rejecting it. So, first point is that there should be a way for a clan leader to tell a foreign emissary either; A) 'Thanks, I'll pass it along' without actually passing it along or B) delaying passing it along (similar to the war start/end vote). No. If you click it to look at it, you automatically pass it along and it automatically goes to a vote whether to end the war. Also, it seems like the ruler could also outright reject it as too low an offer or something without even putting it to a vote.

2) Anyways, because I clicked on the above, I immediately get a pop-up that there is a vote to end the war. Now I've played enough to know pretty much every other clan leader is going to say end the war, because they always do when a vote pops up (unless you are the ruler and you start the vote). I didn't want to end it yet, so I decided to 'not vote' yet. I hoped to maybe get my army that was on the way to Diathma to that town and engage the siege before the time to vote came. Didn't think I had the time, but it was worth a shot. Also, if I engaged another army and captured enough lords, maybe the other clan leaders would decide the offer was too low or something... Good news! 1/2 a day later I get a pop up that the Aserai have made an offer to end the war. Now I know from experience that if we end the war with the Aserai my fellow clan leaders will be less likely to want to end the war with the Northern Empire. So I click on the button to vote to end the war with the aserai. A message pops up asking if I want to vote on this now. I click yes. Then I realize that even though I clicked on the Aserait war button, the stupid game asked me about the Northern Empire war because that was the older one. So now I HAVE to make a decision on the Northern Empire war even though I specifically stated I wanted to vote on the Aserai war. And yes, 100% of the clan leaders want to end the war with the Northern Empire, as expected. So I'm stuck with ending that war now. Yes I realize that if I took my time and read the whole message carefully I would have realized it was asking about the Northern Empire war, but this is a war game and you are supposed to take charge and be aggressive in wars. You aren't supposed to be reading the fine print.

So here's the summary of my points
...1) if I want to see what the enemy is offering to end the war before deciding to pass it along to the ruler, there's no way to do that without immediately passing it along.
...2) If I have 2 votes pending to end the war and I click on one of them, I should get that vote. I shouldn't just automatically get the oldest one because whichever one is decided first will affect the results of the other(s). This also applies if there are votes to start wars. Does anyone else think this is poorly designed by Taleworlds or do you just think I'm stupid and instead of just looking at things I should scrutinize everything?
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Not a bug, just poor design, so I'll post this here. 2 somewhat related poor designs by Taleworlds.

Had 2 ongoing wars, one with Northern Empire and one with Aserai.

1) Message popped up that a Northern Empire messenger was making an offer to end the war. Clicked on it, curious what they were offering, but didn't want to end that war (wanted to get Diathma from them before ending the war). As soon as I clicked on it I was swearing to myself as I realized that once I clicked on it there was no way of putting it on hold or rejecting it. So, first point is that there should be a way for a clan leader to tell a foreign emissary either; A) 'Thanks, I'll pass it along' without actually passing it along or B) delaying passing it along (similar to the war start/end vote). No. If you click it to look at it, you automatically pass it along and it automatically goes to a vote whether to end the war. Also, it seems like the ruler could also outright reject it as too low an offer or something without even putting it to a vote.

2) Anyways, because I clicked on the above, I immediately get a pop-up that there is a vote to end the war. Now I've played enough to know pretty much every other clan leader is going to say end the war, because they always do when a vote pops up (unless you are the ruler and you start the vote). I didn't want to end it yet, so I decided to 'not vote' yet. I hoped to maybe get my army that was on the way to Diathma to that town and engage the siege before the time to vote came. Didn't think I had the time, but it was worth a shot. Also, if I engaged another army and captured enough lords, maybe the other clan leaders would decide the offer was too low or something... Good news! 1/2 a day later I get a pop up that the Aserai have made an offer to end the war. Now I know from experience that if we end the war with the Aserai my fellow clan leaders will be less likely to want to end the war with the Northern Empire. So I click on the button to vote to end the war with the aserai. A message pops up asking if I want to vote on this now. I click yes. Then I realize that even though I clicked on the Aserait war button, the stupid game asked me about the Northern Empire war because that was the older one. So now I HAVE to make a decision on the Northern Empire war even though I specifically stated I wanted to vote on the Aserai war. And yes, 100% of the clan leaders want to end the war with the Northern Empire, as expected. So I'm stuck with ending that war now. Yes I realize that if I took my time and read the whole message carefully I would have realized it was asking about the Northern Empire war, but this is a war game and you are supposed to take charge and be aggressive in wars. You aren't supposed to be reading the fine print.

So here's the summary of my points
...1) if I want to see what the enemy is offering to end the war before deciding to pass it along to the ruler, there's no way to do that without immediately passing it along.
...2) If I have 2 votes pending to end the war and I click on one of them, I should get that vote. I shouldn't just automatically get the oldest one because whichever one is decided first will affect the results of the other(s). This also applies if there are votes to start wars. Does anyone else think this is poorly designed by Taleworlds or do you just think I'm stupid and instead of just looking at things I should scrutinize everything?
Its really just the difference between being a vassal and being a king. If you were king this would not be an issue at all, you would of been able to decline the northern empires offer and then deal with the aserai's offer.

As a vassal you dont have much say or control and whether or not you clicked that message a vote would have occured after a day and the AI would have accepted it, because in reality the enemy AI's offer is calculated as an acceptable one by your faction when they send it. They will not send an offer that your AI will decline. You only get offers that are acceptable, which is why 100% of your lords want it. So im almost positive even if you had accepted the Aserai offer first you would still have peaced out with NE. My guess is that your kingdom also made peace with Aserai after peacing with NE. Although I'm curious to know if that actually happened.

I think a potential solution to this whole participating in essentially rigged votes is to have the AI start votes or send offers that are not already essentially decided. Like let the AI start sending offers once its 30-70% acceptable, so that the players choice as a vassal actually makes a difference and feels like you are participating. Another approach would be to let players spend influence to sway the opinion of other vassals.

@SadShogun any thoughts on how to improve these types of situations as a vassal?
 

Doofus

Veteran
So im almost positive even if you had accepted the Aserai offer first you would still have peaced out with NE. My guess is that your kingdom also made peace with Aserai after peacing with NE. Although I'm curious to know if that actually happened.
Actually, I will make one point...If nothing changes then, yes, the clan leaders always vote in favor of the proposal, usually 100% (although I have seen something like 87% before). BUT...I do know from experience if something substantial happens it will change the vote. Here's a good example....You asked about the Aserai vote. After we accepted peace with the Northern Empire the Aserai vote disappeared totally. It wasn't even an option. Why? Because instead of 2 wars we now have 1 war, so the circumstances changed drastically & (presumably) the ruler pulled the vote. Its good programming, and realistic, that Taleworlds changes the vote after something substantial happens, which is why the 2 points I made are important.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Actually, I will make one point...If nothing changes then, yes, the clan leaders always vote in favor of the proposal, usually 100% (although I have seen something like 87% before). BUT...I do know from experience if something substantial happens it will change the vote. Here's a good example....You asked about the Aserai vote. After we accepted peace with the Northern Empire the Aserai vote disappeared totally. It wasn't even an option. Why? Because instead of 2 wars we now have 1 war, so the circumstances changed drastically & (presumably) the ruler pulled the vote. Its good programming, and realistic, that Taleworlds changes the vote after something substantial happens, which is why the 2 points I made are important.
Now that is interesting, i have yet to have a situation where ive had two kingdoms offer peace within a day so i havent run into this. Thanks for your feedback, it certainly changes things.

I definitely agree that if you open up the kingdom screen and decline to make a choice for a vote it should offer you the next vote to decide on. I think that should be simple enough to implement.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Hah hah, yeah all things about the "The stack" of election stuff is funny and not right yet. You should be able to overview your pile of happenings and do them, or set them aside at your leisure.
Its really just the difference between being a vassal and being a king.
Maybe, but there's still similar issues when king where you want to do X vote but Y is on the stack and it makes you Y first. Or you click a peace enemy proposal (not vote) and can't set it aside and such. Of course my best friends the save often and re-load let me get around a lot of this funny business.

Another thing I don't like is the how "The Game" decides the 3 candidates for a fief. It's not just about wanting fiefs for myself either, it's mostly about wanting to make new clans and wanting towns to be properly set up and landed to the best match, things completely unknown to the AI lords and "The Game". Really who is showing me these options? It just very bad presentation. IMO the game should present 3 from it's calculations, but then let me THE RULER remove and add more at the cost of relations. Also, please make the AI understand building food upgrades, governors and passing useful policies.
 

SadShogun

A Furtherer of the Calradic Cause
Developer
Its really just the difference between being a vassal and being a king. If you were king this would not be an issue at all, you would of been able to decline the northern empires offer and then deal with the aserai's offer.

As a vassal you dont have much say or control and whether or not you clicked that message a vote would have occured after a day and the AI would have accepted it, because in reality the enemy AI's offer is calculated as an acceptable one by your faction when they send it. They will not send an offer that your AI will decline. You only get offers that are acceptable, which is why 100% of your lords want it. So im almost positive even if you had accepted the Aserai offer first you would still have peaced out with NE. My guess is that your kingdom also made peace with Aserai after peacing with NE. Although I'm curious to know if that actually happened.

I think a potential solution to this whole participating in essentially rigged votes is to have the AI start votes or send offers that are not already essentially decided. Like let the AI start sending offers once its 30-70% acceptable, so that the players choice as a vassal actually makes a difference and feels like you are participating. Another approach would be to let players spend influence to sway the opinion of other vassals.

@SadShogun any thoughts on how to improve these types of situations as a vassal?
I like your potential solution of having a 70% acceptance rate to increase the sway the player has on peace agreements. We already calculate a peace agreement that would be accepted by all players so calculating one which requires a 30% decline rate should be possible.

Of course, I have not thought it through yet and there might be other mechanisms that make this very hard to implement or balance.
Thank you for this great suggestion!
 

Doofus

Veteran
Ananda, yeah, one of the most important things, especially if the fief is a town, is whether the clan has anyone native to that culture, which will make it easier for them to keep it. As far as I know this isn't even a consideration of 'The Game'.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
I like your potential solution of having a 70% acceptance rate to increase the sway the player has on peace agreements. We already calculate a peace agreement that would be accepted by all players so calculating one which requires a 30% decline rate should be possible.

Of course, I have not thought it through yet and there might be other mechanisms that make this very hard to implement or balance.
Thank you for this great suggestion!
Good luck with testing, I think this would go a long way in helping the player feel like their vote matters.

Hah hah, yeah all things about the "The stack" of election stuff is funny and not right yet. You should be able to overview your pile of happenings and do them, or set them aside at your leisure.
@MRay my guess is this is more your area. Could you make it to where we get to flip through the active votes and choose which one we want to participate in? That would fix the issues OP ran into.
 

MRay

Developer
my guess is this is more your area. Could you make it to where we get to flip through the active votes and choose which one we want to participate in? That would fix the issues OP ran into.
A design for this is in the works but nothing concrete yet. We're planning on bringing this up internally for discussion next week.
 
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