[Poll] Do you think it is too late for Taleworlds to redo the class system?

Do you think Taleworlds has enough time to save multiplayer and redo the class system for Native?

  • Yes. They could start from scratch now and release a system that players would be happy with.

  • No. We are too far in development to make changes that would bring back the playerbase.

  • Not for native. They should make a MP focused DLC (ex: NW) That addresses the problems with MP.


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Kripaz

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
People spend millions of dollars experimenting and researching these topics across a broad spectrum of media platforms. I could show you a bunch of studies that show how this increases player retention. Sure you may not like it - but calling it 'bad' is clearly a massive personal over-simplification.
You don't need to explain me how this stuff works and of course when I say it's bad it is a personal opinion.
You want more players in MP - this is guaranteed and proven to help that. Not arguing about the rest of the game... just this is as normal as having a main menu. How many of us played 100's of hours of Skirmish games in the beta's to get the damned badges?

Anyway...

Progression = Ranked.
Ranked = Restricted Rules
Restricted Rules = Official Servers

As simple as that I am afraid. If I can setup a custom siege server which only lasts 5 seconds per round and win 500 games of defender siege within an hour; what is the point in tracking that information?
People won't play skirmish or captain even if Tw offer them badges and skins, if they do not like that. I would argue that majority of playerbase doesn't care rat's ass about skins or badges. Look at Siege and TDM. People have hundreds or thousands of hours without even touching "ranked" modes. Those gimmicks only serve the tiny minority which will fade away once custom servers come and provide actual content. Class system rework will be one of the first mods that will come and who wants to grind skins when you can have fun.
If I want to grind I'd rather grind Bannerlord Online than Taleworlds pointless skins.

But that's my take on it. I understand where you are coming from and you are not wrong. But why would people stay with with this game if it's like all others games out there and way better implemented.
 
I don't think our baby has been born yet. Chuck the carriage. build a better one while there is still time an no one on MP. In fact shut mp down all together and start over until full release when it's in a presentable and playable state.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You don't need to explain me how this stuff works and of course when I say it's bad it is a personal opinion.

People won't play skirmish or captain even if Tw offer them badges and skins, if they do not like that. I would argue that majority of playerbase doesn't care rat's ass about skins or badges. Look at Siege and TDM. People have hundreds or thousands of hours without even touching "ranked" modes. Those gimmicks only serve the tiny minority which will fade away once custom servers come and provide actual content. Class system rework will be one of the first mods that will come and who wants to grind skins when you can have fun.
If I want to grind I'd rather grind Bannerlord Online than Taleworlds pointless skins.

But that's my take on it. I understand where you are coming from and you are not wrong. But why would people stay with with this game if it's like all others games out there and way better implemented.
Fair enough - I don't disagree with any of that.
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
After the many disappointments TaleWorlds has given us, I am of the opinion that it might be better to let the equipment selection changes be done by modders. We've all witnessed that modders are capable of great things. Modders mostly work at a much faster pace than the snailspeed of TaleWorlds development.

Fair enough - I don't disagree with any of that.
With regard to badges, there is only so much they will do. You can have one badge and what are you gonna do when you get the badge you want? You can only equip one at the same time and most of them are going to be acquired by everyone anyways. Especially as the game ages, the 500 and 750 win badges will become very common.

Free equipment selection along with proper balancing can be a true savior for this game. I place my trust in the modding community for this, hopefully it will be soon.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
After the many disappointments TaleWorlds has given us, I am of the opinion that it might be better to let the equipment selection changes be done by modders. We've all witnessed that modders are capable of great things. Modders mostly work at a much faster pace than the snailspeed of TaleWorlds development.


With regard to badges, there is only so much they will do. You can have one badge and what are you gonna do when you get the badge you want? You can only equip one at the same time and most of them are going to be acquired by everyone anyways. Especially as the game ages, the 500 and 750 win badges will become very common.

Free equipment selection along with proper balancing can be a true savior for this game. I place my trust in the modding community for this, hopefully it will be soon.
Keeping native as the home of 'ranked' game types - and mods as everything and anything else might not be the worst thing in the long term. Within a week of custom servers there will be a 'classic' mode equipment - which I will happily jump back and forth between.

Really TW just need to give us custom servers... it would take 95% of the MP pressure off their backs when they can just turn around and say;

"Don't like this feature? Change it and host it yourself then".

I very much look forward to seeing what modders can do with Captains mode. Kingdom of Arda 'captains mode' will be a dream come true.
 

Poddicus

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I disagree. If the servers were reliable and functional this is perfectly fine. In-fact it is very standard industry practice.
'It is standard industry practice therefore its good' is a completely brainwashed way of thinking

Adding cosmetics and other meaningless pieces of progression to the multiplayer would be the final nail in its coffin because it would prove that Taleworlds don't have an understanding of what made Mount & Blade's multiplayer good in the first place.
It would incentivise complacency within Taleworlds over fixing the game / making a better game.
The fundamental basics of the multiplayer are flawed so much so that the game is almost unrecognisable to its predecessor. The downgraded class system with its restricting of player freedom is a perfect example and one of the first things more casual players notice and mention not to mention BL's melee has nowhere near the fluidity and responsiveness of Warband's combat and don't get me started on balance.

Progression in such form is completely ill suited for Mount & Blade especially seeing as in the game's history any Official servers are quickly overshadowed by the community run servers, even if those official servers are "good".

M&B's multiplayer has always been completely casual with a lot of player freedom which is why everyone enjoyed it. The population isn't gonna suddenly come back because it has some new skins to unlock if the game is still ****. If you want to play for fancy cosmetics then go play Fortnite or CSGO.

TW are just following the times.
Yeah and look where its led them :grin:
BL's multiplayer is essentially scuffed and dumbed down which perfectly encapsulates the low standard of game sequels in recent times in general.
Warband's multiplayer was unique in the sense that it gave everyone freedom of choice and was ultimately run by the community, it didn't need progressive cosmetics because the gameplay was good.

Adding progressing like this in the form of cosmetics would just be adding bandaids onto a multiplayer which has already lost several limbs. What's even the point of getting them when the gameplay itself is a chore and not only could but should be so much more than what it is but is kept back by Taleworlds' blindfolded design decisions which convey how obvious it is that they haven't played the previous games and don't understand what made M&B great in the first place.
Taleworlds giving us the freedom to mod the game and set our own parameters for servers cannot come soon enough.

And on a personal note everytime you mention Captain mode you make me wanna smash a window :mrgreen:
 
Keeping native as the home of 'ranked' game types - and mods as everything and anything else might not be the worst thing in the long term.

Do you think there will be any competitive games happening on native after the release of custom servers?
It's my understanding that no one likes it especially in the competitive scene and every tournament will move to a space where balancing can finally start happening and TW can't control it.
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
To be fair progression based mechanics are proven to dramatically increase player retention of games.

Hell I played 300+ games of skirmish to get that 250 Win badge on the beta; barely played more then 5 games since as I vastly prefer siege/captains.

You would be very surprised what a few unlocks might do to increase player count....

Not that this fixes the drought in content MP suffers from. I personally believe trying to remake the class system would be a long-winded and costly mistake now; game modes, maps, functionality, perks & indeed cosmetics should be the focus. MP suffers right now because we don't have custom servers and we have such a limited pool of content to play. Give me custom siege maps, duel mode, battle mode, MP mods, 10 vs 10 captains battles and arena deathmatch and I will gladly chuck another 1000 hours into Bannerlord MP try9ng to unlock cool helmets and new tattoo's.

I'm not going to argue that the warband system would/wouldn't have worked better - I just think spending another year working on that now would be a huge mistake.
I think youre undervaluing the importance of a good framework. Adding grindable content would not accomplish much if players arent enjoying the grind. There are 100s of bad MMOs that we can point to and use as examples of games that put all of their marbles into content despite having a poor core gameplay loop.

As ive stated elsewhere, adding new gamemodes does not accomplish anything if players dont enjoy the game. Adding new maps doesnt accomplish anything if players dont enjoy the gamemodes, because they dont enjoy the game, because they dont like the class system. Its hard to incentivize earning items when players dont want anything to do with the game the items are locked into. Im sure some people would grind out whatever was offered, but the numbers would still dwarf those of a multiplayer that was actually good.

Systematically yes - you are 100% right. TW could have just let MP be the casual mess around it was on Warband - and now it is clear their dreams of eSPORTS stardom are fading - it would have been better to leave it be. Focus on SP and let MP just be a casual hangout with mod support.

If you want a MP that people take seriously as a competitive format - then you need to be willing to put the work in. There is a reason most highly competitive MP games have limited or no SP.

However we are where we are. No point throwing the baby out with the carriage now.
Im not entirely sure what youre implying here, but I would argue that Warband was the much better platform for competitive tournaments. The gamemodes present and gear systems used allowed for much easier tournament hosting and better matches. There was a metric ton of energy surrounding the scene during WPL1 and that tournament demonstrated that with proper stakes and time put in, Mount&Blade was a viable esport that could have properly grown if Taleworlds had been paying it any attention at that time. There was a lot more to Warband multiplayer than goofing off on US GK Siege with your buddies. We warned Taleworlds during the Alpha that the core decisions being made were detrimental to any esports success, but they seemed fixated on a multi life gamemode that removed most stakes and the impact of fights. Circling back to the class system, Skirmish was what we got instead of battle due to the class system to begin with. During the alpha they admitted that Battle wouldnt work with their class system due to the inherent asymmetry present in the classes. They needed a multi life gamemode instead.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I think youre undervaluing the importance of a good framework. Adding grindable content would not accomplish much if players arent enjoying the grind. There are 100s of bad MMOs that we can point to and use as examples of games that put all of their marbles into content despite having a poor core gameplay loop.

As ive stated elsewhere, adding new gamemodes does not accomplish anything if players dont enjoy the game. Adding new maps doesnt accomplish anything if players dont enjoy the gamemodes, because they dont enjoy the game, because they dont like the class system. Its hard to incentivize earning items when players dont want anything to do with the game the items are locked into. Im sure some people would grind out whatever was offered, but the numbers would still dwarf those of a multiplayer that was actually good.

Don't disagree with that - think you have taken my comment out of context. I was just saying progression based content - in of itself; completely as an isolated idea - is not necessarily bad game design. Doesn't resolve any existing issues - it won't save the game by itself by any margin; but I don't think it is a negative.

Im not entirely sure what youre implying here, but I would argue that Warband was the much better platform for competitive tournaments. The gamemodes present and gear systems used allowed for much easier tournament hosting and better matches. There was a metric ton of energy surrounding the scene during WPL1 and that tournament demonstrated that with proper stakes and time put in, Mount&Blade was a viable esport that could have properly grown if Taleworlds had been paying it any attention at that time. There was a lot more to Warband multiplayer than goofing off on US GK Siege with your buddies. We warned Taleworlds during the Alpha that the core decisions being made were detrimental to any esports success, but they seemed fixated on a multi life gamemode that removed most stakes and the impact of fights. Circling back to the class system, Skirmish was what we got instead of battle due to the class system to begin with. During the alpha they admitted that Battle wouldnt work with their class system due to the inherent asymmetry present in the classes. They needed a multi life gamemode instead.
I was agreeing with craven - Bannerlord has not succeeding in producing a viable competitive platform; so in retrospect it was wrong for TW to aim it as such. However we are were we are.

Not all of my comments are white knighting I promise 🤣
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
Don't disagree with that - think you have taken my comment out of context. I was just saying progression based content - in of itself; completely as an isolated idea - is not necessarily bad game design. Doesn't resolve any existing issues - it won't save the game by itself by any margin; but I don't think it is a negative.
I think we are in agreement. If the core gameplay loop was good, adding incentive for players to continue playing would be the proper thing to do. With that said, I dont think adding the incentives makes it justifiable to not have good gameplay. My point is that new content is pointless in the long run if the foundation is still borked.
 

Faranox

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SVC
If the core gameplay loop was good, adding incentive for players to continue playing would be the proper thing to do.
Exactly. It feels like TW took for granted that everything would be well received, and when it wasn't they just pushed on with the additional features anyway.
I think Bannerlord could still offer a great MP experience that stands out from other games like Chivalry 2, but not anytime soon.
 
i think its never too late to pray for the forgiveness of sin,

but acknowledging a mistake as member of a company could mean you lose your job,

i think they might know in it was a bad decision but, i can't see how they would save face and change back to the gold system
 
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Average Fan VS Average TW dev


im too lazy to make video edit. imagine on the left there is community efforts/suggestions/tears, broken mp, sound of doom, flickering of the doom, drowning one etc and on the right meme tw dev posts (add some petmonster responses, some meme numbers from avrc about balance and server crashes) and add incoming loyality cut from skin selling mtx in the end

sp version

2-3 TW dev that Cares about the game vs Armagan in Meetings
 
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Moth_Queen

Recruit
There is a way out of it:

1. Equalize and balance out all classes, no paywall. Premade class choice shall be tactical, and not "economy-based".
2. Add one "custom" class, where players can choose budget-based gear (Mordhau).

or

3. Make all classes customizable with pre-saved budget-based presets.

Seriously, classes are less of a problem than per-match economy. All it does is hindering a loosing players/teams even more by giving advantage to winners. It just another needless level of balance to care for devs. People want MORE flexibility to adapt to a stronger opponent, not less! This is plain frustrating.
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
This

Im tired of beeing forced into classes with garbage loadouts that you have to throw away right after spawning.
If I want to play ligh/med/heavy armor or a combination of them with weapon X, just let me do it. Stop forcing us into premade troops.
All the variations and depthness we had in warband just gets wasted and smoked with the current class system

Yes, exactly. I do not know what they were thinking with this class system. It is like they do not understand whatsoever what made Warband MP so insanely popular and still played to this day.

3. Make all classes customizable with pre-saved budget-based presets.

This is probably the only way they can save MP right now.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
There is a way out of it:

1. Equalize and balance out all classes, no paywall. Premade class choice shall be tactical, and not "economy-based
This plus allow us to customize our proficiences. Make weapons or gear only available if you meet the correct proficiences.

For example, I can have my archer class be this piss poor melee combatant with great speed and able to use big bows or have him heavy armoured slow and able to fight up close with a shield and a small bow.

My infantry can be fast, light armour and a big shield for hunting down archers and outranging heavy armour guys but he will die quick.

This would give so much small replayability they have no idea.

And for the newbies that are too confused just have some default premade set ups that are relatively competitive for them to use.
 

Ulfkarl

Regular
me self is a programmer.
according to recent disasters, as far as my experience, I am quite sure that guy who made the fundamental design has left. The current MP team is still struggling on understanding legacy codes.
(at least not in the MP team and provides poorly support)
so, no...
btw, I don't mind class system
that happened, and not only that, the current developers are students from university in turkey
 
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