[Poll] Do you think it is too late for Taleworlds to redo the class system?

Do you think Taleworlds has enough time to save multiplayer and redo the class system for Native?

  • Yes. They could start from scratch now and release a system that players would be happy with.

  • No. We are too far in development to make changes that would bring back the playerbase.

  • Not for native. They should make a MP focused DLC (ex: NW) That addresses the problems with MP.


Results are only viewable after voting.

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BayBear

Knight
I’d love for Taleworlds to take the free market approach and let players adjust the systems how they like in their own servers. The best systems will rise in popularity and could be officially supported in matchmaking over time.
 

danEN

Knight
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
This

Im tired of beeing forced into classes with garbage loadouts that you have to throw away right after spawning.
If I want to play ligh/med/heavy armor or a combination of them with weapon X, just let me do it. Stop forcing us into premade troops.
All the variations and depthness we had in warband just gets wasted and smoked with the current class system
uniform is rife through SP and MP, they don't seem to grasp how dog**** copy and paste looking troops are. Also contributes massively to the game lacking soul, there's no uniqueness or variation anywhere in the game
 

FARIAS

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I think most people like the Warband class sytem because they could pick different types of armour ,helmets gloves, boots etc... kinda set their character different from the rest, I also enjoyed this feature, but the devs did say in the previous dev blog that they would implement several pieces of armour and other cosmetics from the singleplayer to the multiplayer.

And I would love to see all this cool armours from the singleplayer introduced because there are hundreds of armours with different variations and colour. We even have a new cape/sholder slot we didn't have in Warband...
So with all this new features and character slots,tons of armours, helmets, gloves, capes, shoulder plates... why not use it all and bring this assets to the multiplayer... ? Why keep using this restrictive class system :roll:
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I think most people like the Warband class sytem because they could pick different types of armour ,helmets gloves, boots etc... kinda set their character different from the rest, I also enjoyed this feature, but the devs did say in the previous dev blog that they would implement several pieces of armour and other cosmetics from the singleplayer to the multiplayer.
They are forcing people to play captain and skirmish to unlock those customization items.

I for one do not intend to use the matchmaking once custom servers are out, i happen to have been forced to play skirmish or captain since those were the only things to play.

But new player? Why the hell would they want to bother playing some boring 6v6 as opposed to a casual 100v100 siege? Like seriously?


I hope TW proves me wrong but if it is indeed tied only to the matchmaking, which they have hinted on, they once again prove they do not know what the multiplayer players love to play and show once again their incompetence.
 

chowski

On probation
Crashes weren’t fixed for 18 days leading to the DEATH of BEAST and NABB2! How long do you think it will take for them to make this?...
 

dijiTurk

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
But new player? Why the hell would they want to bother playing some boring 6v6 as opposed to a casual 100v100 siege? Like seriously?

..

I have both logical & fair solutions for offical MP modes..:

-Lets let TW decrease offical modes' server capasities. Like 120 to 70.
-Lets accept small sized mp maps & castles for offical modes.

+But lets demand from them to develop 2sMasterySystem(which can be made with or without class system).
+Let them add it to some offical modes.
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
It's one thing to have an opinion on the system but reducing the entirety of MP's popularity to "has class system or does not" is silly.
This would be true if it was something that was less impactful.

Unfortunately it can be pointed to as the single biggest downside to the game casually and competitively.

On the competitive side, the class system killed this games Esports potential before it was even given a chance. 5 of the 8 "Major" (High level, Competitive in tournaments) teams from North America have pretty explicitly stated that they are not playing due to being disgusted with the class system that is in place. Its also important to remember that pushing this system is the reason we got Skirmish over Battle at launch. When one of your most important teams is straight up coming out and saying "no battle no bKs" its pretty straightforward that the decisions that were made have had a negative impact on the games competitive potential. Its not like the interest wasnt there either. wK, bKs, Balion, Wappaw, DoF, Honour Bound, GK and a boatload of newer teams all participated in the Alpha. Of that group, only HB really stuck around. GK and DoF were able to field teams for a single tournament, but mostly with newer or borrowed players instead of their experienced core. Those 3 teams, plus the new ones who participated while they did, deserve a lot of credit for hanging around and giving Taleworlds a chance when many of the pillars of the competitive scene were too revolted to even purchase the game after the closed beta.

For Casual players, I can dedicate a thread longer than this one currently is exclusively to public players reactions to not being able to pick their own gear. Being able to build your class and playstyle from the ground up was one of the core design decisions that made Warband really click, and over 3000 combinations per class being simplified down to 2 separate 3 choice windows is insulting to a lot of players. Its especially bad when one of the most popular loadouts (sword and board, medium armor, support spear) somehow didnt even have a class dedicated to it for 5 out of 6 factions. The complete neglect of medium infantry made it so that the choices were so limiting that many players couldnt (and still cant) play as the loadout they would like to. It is quite embarrassing to have 6 classes for each faction and just *forget* to include the baseline sword and shield inf that a huge amount of people play as.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
They are forcing people to play captain and skirmish to unlock those customization items.

I for one do not intend to use the matchmaking once custom servers are out, i happen to have been forced to play skirmish or captain since those were the only things to play.

But new player? Why the hell would they want to bother playing some boring 6v6 as opposed to a casual 100v100 siege? Like seriously?


I hope TW proves me wrong but if it is indeed tied only to the matchmaking, which they have hinted on, they once again prove they do not know what the multiplayer players love to play and show once again their incompetence.
To be fair progression based mechanics are proven to dramatically increase player retention of games.

Hell I played 300+ games of skirmish to get that 250 Win badge on the beta; barely played more then 5 games since as I vastly prefer siege/captains.

You would be very surprised what a few unlocks might do to increase player count....

Not that this fixes the drought in content MP suffers from. I personally believe trying to remake the class system would be a long-winded and costly mistake now; game modes, maps, functionality, perks & indeed cosmetics should be the focus. MP suffers right now because we don't have custom servers and we have such a limited pool of content to play. Give me custom siege maps, duel mode, battle mode, MP mods, 10 vs 10 captains battles and arena deathmatch and I will gladly chuck another 1000 hours into Bannerlord MP try9ng to unlock cool helmets and new tattoo's.

I'm not going to argue that the warband system would/wouldn't have worked better - I just think spending another year working on that now would be a huge mistake.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
It's a weird because you know that when mod tools/server files are released an equipment system mod is going to be out and functional within a month (assume you can just steal most of the UI and equipment from the singleplayer) from the community. But at the same time, given their development rate, I genuinely don't think TW has enough time to implement it.

My solution would be something like a hybrid of option 3 and your more pessimistic view, where they give some way of hosting our own servers and implementing our own game modes now. Whilst the community is running multiplayer, they go back to the drawing board and reinvent MP. During this they can see what the community is doing and what works/doesn't, taking what does and using it to help their own development.

This would basically be a way to fix what they should have done, which is look at the Warband Native/Mod scene and take what works while fixing what doesn't, as opposed to what they apparently did which is completely start from scratch, creating a whole new bunch of problems along with reinventing some old ones (not to say it's all bad, but a lot of it is).

Will they do this? Probably not.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
To be fair progression based mechanics are proven to dramatically increase player retention of games.

Hell I played 300+ games of skirmish to get that 250 Win badge on the beta; barely played more then 5 games since as I vastly prefer siege/captains.

You would be very surprised what a few unlocks might do to increase player count....

Not that this fixes the drought in content MP suffers from. I personally believe trying to remake the class system would be a long-winded and costly mistake now; game modes, maps, functionality, perks & indeed cosmetics should be the focus. MP suffers right now because we don't have custom servers and we have such a limited pool of content to play. Give me custom siege maps, duel mode, battle mode, MP mods, 10 vs 10 captains battles and arena deathmatch and I will gladly chuck another 1000 hours into Bannerlord MP try9ng to unlock cool helmets and new tattoo's.

I'm not going to argue that the warband system would/wouldn't have worked better - I just think spending another year working on that now would be a huge mistake.
Did you completely ignore what i said?

Let me put it again, no one likes being forced to play on servers which are inferior to custom servers hosted by the community. Doesn't matter how many people play it, you know it's only played to unlock the skins and then bugger off to custom servers.

Here you have it.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Did you completely ignore what i said?

Let me put it again, no one likes being forced to play on servers which are inferior to custom servers hosted by the community. Doesn't matter how many people play it, you know it's only played to unlock the skins and then bugger off to custom servers.

Here you have it.
Agreed but restricting cosmetic unlocks to official servers is pretty standard practice. Indeed there wouldn't be much point even having an unlock system if you allowed custom servers to contribute to this progression - as it would be extremely extremely easy to game the system to unlock everything very quickly.

I did read your point - and do agree to an extent. But if you are going to have progression based unlocks - it can only be feasible if tied to an official server system.

Now you are right; that would just create a rather pointless loop of only using officials servers to gain loot... however again that is pretty standard practice. Realistically the solution here is for the official servers to not be rubbish. :xf-wink:
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Agreed but restricting cosmetic unlocks to official servers is pretty standard practice. Indeed there wouldn't be much point even having an unlock system if you allowed custom servers to contribute to this progression - as it would be extremely extremely easy to game the system to unlock everything very quickly.

I did read your point - and do agree to an extent. But if you are going to have progression based unlocks - it can only be feasible if tied to an official server system.

Now you are right; that would just create a rather pointless loop of only using officials servers to gain loot... however again that is pretty standard practice. Realistically the solution here is for the official servers to not be rubbish. :xf-wink:
Meaning: BAD DESIGN DECISION
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Meaning: BAD DESIGN DECISION
I disagree. If the servers were reliable and functional this is perfectly fine. In-fact it is very standard industry practice. Official servers for 'ranked' (with levelling and unlocks), unofficial for 'unranked'.

Nothing wrong with this in theory - I could list off 100 major MP titles which follow this same practice. Sure you could argue that all game modes should be ranked - it looks like TW originally planned this for siege. But obviously it wasn't taking; with that many players it seems wrong to consider that a competitive game mode anyway.
 

Kripaz

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
If Tw wants to follow these bad "standard industry practices", might as well play something that's actually well made and stable.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
If Tw wants to follow these bad "standard industry practices", might as well play something that's actually well made and stable.
People spend millions of dollars experimenting and researching these topics across a broad spectrum of media platforms. I could show you a bunch of studies that show how this increases player retention. Sure you may not like it - but calling it 'bad' is clearly an over-simplification.

You want more players in MP - this is guaranteed and proven to help that. Not arguing about the rest of the game... just this is as normal as having a main menu. How many of us played 100's of hours of Skirmish games in the beta's to get the damned badges?

Anyway...

Progression = Ranked.
Ranked = Restricted Rules
Restricted Rules = Official Servers

As simple as that I am afraid. If I can setup a custom siege server which only lasts 5 seconds per round and win 500 games of defender siege within an hour; what is the point in tracking that information?

Plenty of other things we can argue about and probably agree on - but this isn't the hill to die on. TW are just following the times.
 
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XDaron

Knight at Arms
returning to the topic, it would only be too late if players wouldn't be willing to comeback, but they did after bannerlord online came out, proving it's still not too late, will the devs do it? from my experience no
 
People spend millions of dollars experimenting and researching these topics across a broad spectrum of media platforms. I could show you a bunch of studies that show how this increases player retention. Sure you may not like it - but calling it 'bad' is clearly an over-simplification.

You want more players in MP - this is guaranteed and proven to help that. Not arguing about the rest of the game... just this is as normal as having a main menu. How many of us played 100's of hours of Skirmish games in the beta's to get the damned badges?

Anyway...

Progression = Ranked.
Ranked = Restricted Rules
Restricted Rules = Official Servers

As simple as that I am afraid. If I can setup a custom siege server which only lasts 5 seconds per round and win 500 games of defender siege within an hour; what is the point in tracking that information?

Plenty of other things we can argue about and probably agree on - but this isn't the hill to die on. TW are just following the times.
Just my opinion but this line of thinking gave us what we have today.
Instead of trying to be another failing esports game like you're saying TW should just listen to and implement player feedback.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Just my opinion but this line of thinking gave us what we have today.
Instead of trying to be another failing esports game like you're saying TW should just listen to and implement player feedback.
Systematically yes - you are 100% right. TW could have just let MP be the casual mess around it was on Warband - and now it is clear their dreams of eSPORTS stardom are fading - it would have been better to leave it be. Focus on SP and let MP just be a casual hangout with mod support.

If you want a MP that people take seriously as a competitive format - then you need to be willing to put the work in. There is a reason most highly competitive MP games have limited or no SP.

However we are where we are. No point throwing the baby out with the carriage now.
 
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