[Poll] Different Vassal Titles in Relation to Power

Should there be multiple titles based on their fiefdom?

  • Yes, I would like to see MORE than king and count.

    Votes: 179 86.5%
  • No, I prefer a simpler system where there isn't many titles.

    Votes: 12 5.8%
  • I have no real preference.

    Votes: 16 7.7%

  • Total voters
    207

Captain Obvious

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
Hey all!

I replied with a similar point in another post but I felt that it would be best to put this down with a poll & it's own thread as I felt it was a wider topic which should be discussed.

I've always loved different titles for the amount of power you have, weirdly one of the bigger reasons I enjoyed ck2 so much. What I'd enjoy to see is a much better fleshed out system for the way that vassals are titled - even if it is only visual and has no other purpose to the game. I have a few reasons for this:-

  • Firstly if anything else it just looks cool. Personally on my warband playthroughs I would change my own 'title' in accordance to the land I owned because I wanted to feel like I wasn't just a "player" but part of the game.
  • Secondly it will be really handy when seeing bits of info and pop ups here and there to identify which are more pressing to handle. To quote Justin who I believe summerises what I'm trying to say rather well:

    JustinTime49 said:
    I assume that troops numbers just like in warband will be based on your fiefs/enterprises. If so, being able to identify a powerful vassal based on the prefix of Duke, Count, Baron, etc would add so much immersion and great gameplay. Especially in the army system.

    "Duke Ecarand has formed an army" I'd be like ah **** don't wanna mess with that influential dude who will pack like 800 men.
    Compare that to "Baron Eren has fomed an army" I'd be like ok he will probably gather forces to raid the countryside(villages) so I don't need to worry about castles.
  • And thirdly if some game features could be formed around the different titles giving different powers, it could host many different features such as having to gather the support of a Duke or several counts to propose the moving of certain laws or even only certain titles (Dukes) could pass certain laws. It really does give large opportunities for the player to become more immersed and have more choice.

Now it would also be a nice bonus if you could modify existing titles for your own custom kingdom, if the player is able to create such, changing the set titles to what he desires (count being changed to earl for example).

How would this all work you ask? See an example for the Vlandian Culture's titles (depending on the culture of the kingdom, the titles will change).


Knight OR Sir (female counterpart - Dame) - Unlanded Noble with Banner.
Baron (female counterpart - Baroness) - Owns a Village.
Count (female counterpart - Countess) - Owns a Castle.
Duke (female counterpart - Duchess) - Owns a Town.
King (female counterpart - Queen) - Controls a Kingdom.
Emperor (female counterpart - Empress) - Control a certain percentage of the contintent of Calradia?

Please note that the wife/husband to the noble in question would have their counterpart title (so a landed count's wife would automatically gain the title of countess, regardless if she had lands)


Thanks for reading this monstrosity, cast your vote on the poll and let me know your views below!

 
Last edited by a moderator:

John_M

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
I would love something like this, with the added layer of dukes being the direct lord of some counts and counts being the direct lord of some barons.

But I don't think it would ever work with Bannerlord's current clan system. Only the clan leader holds land as far as we know, so chances are every person who has a title will have the title duke.
 

FBohler

Knight
WBNWWF&S
Best answers
0
It would be cool if every title opened some sort of gameplay possibility and enabled for details in the world such as townsfolk looking away/bowing as you walk the streets.
 

Captain Obvious

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
John.M said:
I would love something like this, with the added layer of dukes being the direct lord of some counts and counts being the direct lord of some barons.

But I don't think it would ever work with Bannerlord's current clan system. Only the clan leader holds land as far as we know, so chances are every person who has a title will have the title duke.
Would be nice to have the added layers, all I'm main asking for is visuals, but anything to add more flavour is more than welcome - I don't think what you're proposing is impossible, but it wouldn't be easy and I'm unsure that such would be considered.


FBohler said:
It would be cool if every title opened some sort of gameplay possibility and enabled for details in the world such as townsfolk looking away/bowing as you walk the streets.
Precisely! ALL BOW DOWN TO HIS GRACE! (xd)
 

RoboSenshi

Grandmaster Knight
WBNWVC
Best answers
0
I like this but it needs to be tweaked a little to fit the Bannerlord Clan System. My suggestion would be:

A Clan that owns at lease One Town - Clan Leader is a Duke, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Castle - Clan Leader is a Count, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Village - Clan Leader is a Baron, Clan Members are Lords.

A Clan that owns Nothing - Clan Leader is a Lord, Clan Members are Knights " Sir".

A Clan that rules a Kingdom - Clan Leader is a King, Clan Members are Prince, Princess etc..


It's not perfect but It could work with some sort of automated title prefix system. Even though it's feudal in name only.
 

Captain Obvious

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
RoboSenshi said:
I like this but it needs to be tweaked a little to fit the Bannerlord Clan System. My suggestion would be:

A Clan that owns at lease One Town - Clan Leader is a Duke, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Castle - Clan Leader is a Count, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Village - Clan Leader is a Baron, Clan Members are Lords.

A Clan that owns Nothing - Clan Leader is a Lord, Clan Members are Knights " Sir".

A Clan that rules a Kingdom - Clan Leader is a King, Clan Members are Prince, Princess etc..


It's not perfect but It could work with some sort of automated title prefix system. Even though it's feudal in name only.
Hmmm possibly. Although your title would really be from your land and not that of your family (you wouldnt have a guy being called a baron just because his uncle owns castle). That as well as multiple people in a  clan could own different fiefs - what if two clan members both own towns? I'm not sure it would be too hard to impliment the above, we'll see what the devs say (if anything).
 

FBohler

Knight
WBNWWF&S
Best answers
0
RoboSenshi said:
I like this but it needs to be tweaked a little to fit the Bannerlord Clan System. My suggestion would be:

A Clan that owns at lease One Town - Clan Leader is a Duke, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Castle - Clan Leader is a Count, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Village - Clan Leader is a Baron, Clan Members are Lords.

A Clan that owns Nothing - Clan Leader is a Lord, Clan Members are Knights " Sir".

A Clan that rules a Kingdom - Clan Leader is a King, Clan Members are Prince, Princess etc..


It's not perfect but It could work with some sort of automated title prefix system. Even though it's feudal in name only.
I'd rather prefer the scheme on the OP to be honest.
 

RoboSenshi

Grandmaster Knight
WBNWVC
Best answers
0
OP doesn't work with the current Clan system. If it was changed, then of course that system would be much better.

Captain Obvious said:
Hmmm possibly. Although your title would really be from your land and not that of your family (you wouldnt have a guy being called a baron just because his uncle owns castle). That as well as multiple people in a  clan could own different fiefs - what if two clan members both own towns? I'm not sure it would be too hard to impliment the above, we'll see what the devs say (if anything).
:lol: I think you're a little confused my man. TW ****ed everything up. Individuals can't own fiefs anymore. Clans own fiefs and by extension only the clan leader owns all fiefs controlled by the clan. Clan members can only be appointed "Governors" of a fief that the clan leaders owns. And Governors can be removed or replaced at anytime. It's all over the dev blogs but I'm too lazy to skulk through them and find em all. So for example if my clan "House Senshi" gets awarded a castle it is essentially mine. I can't bestow that fief to another clan member. The best I can do is make him a Governor of the castle and if he ****s up, I can just replace him with a better clan member. I know it's stupid and there was a lot of hoopla on the forums when this system was outlined. I know I *****ed about it a lot. However, in Bannerlord, only Clan leaders can own fiefs.

The only other way would be to have all clan leaders have titles like Duke and Count and all clan members just be referred to as Lords. That can work as well but only 6-7 people would have titles that mean anything.
 
Best answers
0
I'd prefer it stayed like it is in Warband, meaning we get to change our name (and title) on the fly.

What I would indeed like, that was suggested on this thread, would be lords being vassals of other lords, just like it was in feudal Europe. Imagine a ASOIAF-like situation, where you have main, powerful lords of old families who defend a certain area of the kingdom, with the smaller lords and families on that area swearing fealty to them.

This would deepen political tactics. For instance, one could sway one of those powerful vassals in a enemy faction to his side, effectively taking the entire area of influence with them, or influence a family that is rival to one of the main vassals, to the same effect. Really, ASOIAF has a lot of nicely summarized potential inspiration for political strife, and I hope someone in the team is doing that.

I also suppose this could be implemented as an optional policy rather than a fixed mechanic. If I remember correctly the kingdom policy "great council" (or something like that) fits into this.
 

John_M

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
RoboSenshi said:
I like this but it needs to be tweaked a little to fit the Bannerlord Clan System. My suggestion would be:

A Clan that owns at lease One Town - Clan Leader is a Duke, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Castle - Clan Leader is a Count, Clan Members are Barons.

A Clan that owns at lease One Village - Clan Leader is a Baron, Clan Members are Lords.

A Clan that owns Nothing - Clan Leader is a Lord, Clan Members are Knights " Sir".

A Clan that rules a Kingdom - Clan Leader is a King, Clan Members are Prince, Princess etc..


It's not perfect but It could work with some sort of automated title prefix system. Even though it's feudal in name only.
The only way I see something like this working tbh. Of course we could also have different prefixes for different factions/cultures.
 

Leoranthian

Regular
WBWF&SVC
Best answers
0
This doesn't quite stick to the original point, but I think it's still relevant--I would at the very least like to actually have my name change, whether it be following the OP's system or Senshi's system.

Sure, in Warband you could look in the reports and see what your standing was, but your name never actually changed. I didn't go from Luthais, to Jarl Luthais, to King Luthais, for example. I know that we as the player did have the ability to change our name whenever we pleased, but that's not what I'm talking about. I would like it to actually follow a titling system that changes my character's name on the fly--without my input.

Honestly, proper titling based upon your holdings is secondary to me as long as I see my character's name dynamically change. I think that the level of immersion would be much greater for me if it actually changed dynamically.



But now that I've got that out of the way, yeah--I would love to see a proper naming scheme based upon one's actual holdings. A variety of titles certainly adds to the immersion, and there are actually multiple mods that attempted this in Warband, i.e. Floris. I'm pretty sure the names were hard-coded in Floris and didn't dynamically change based upon holdings, but from what I remember the initial titles that they had were based upon the amount of holdings that the characters had.

I could be remembering that wrong; maybe the titles in Floris actually did change dynamically. But regardless, I feel like this is a case where Taleworlds would benefit from following the example of the modding community. I would LOVE to see legitimate landed titles.
 

DarkieBabZ

Recruit
M&BWF&SNW
Best answers
0
I would love to see more titles and not just the simplistic title system, but we also have to remember that it can complicate things, not just ingame but also for people that don't want stuff to be complicated.
 

RoboSenshi

Grandmaster Knight
WBNWVC
Best answers
0
Luthais Eldrin said:
This doesn't quite stick to the original point, but I think it's still relevant--I would at the very least like to actually have my name change, whether it be following the OP's system or Senshi's system.

Sure, in Warband you could look in the reports and see what your standing was, but your name never actually changed. I didn't go from Luthais, to Jarl Luthais, to King Luthais, for example. I know that we as the player did have the ability to change our name whenever we pleased, but that's not what I'm talking about. I would like it to actually follow a titling system that changes my character's name on the fly--without my input.

Honestly, proper titling based upon your holdings is secondary to me as long as I see my character's name dynamically change. I think that the level of immersion would be much greater for me if it actually changed dynamically.



But now that I've got that out of the way, yeah--I would love to see a proper naming scheme based upon one's actual holdings. A variety of titles certainly adds to the immersion, and there are actually multiple mods that attempted this in Warband, i.e. Floris. I'm pretty sure the names were hard-coded in Floris and didn't dynamically change based upon holdings, but from what I remember the initial titles that they had were based upon the amount of holdings that the characters had.
One of the successor mods for 1257AD (Medieval Conquests or Enhanced Edition) actually has this system. You get an automatic title based on the type of fief you own. Duke if you have a town, Count if you have a castle, Baron if you have a village and Lord if you have no fiefs. Also Prince if you're a son of a King. The system applies to every character in the game and if you lose your fief, your title also changes. Spouses also get a correspondent title i.e the wife of a Duke is a Duchess etc.

It's a very good mechanic and the way it should be in Bannerlord. Unfortunately, the devs have already screwed this possiblity with the clan system.
 

JustinTime49

Sergeant
Best answers
0
RoboSenshi said:
Luthais Eldrin said:
This doesn't quite stick to the original point, but I think it's still relevant--I would at the very least like to actually have my name change, whether it be following the OP's system or Senshi's system.

Sure, in Warband you could look in the reports and see what your standing was, but your name never actually changed. I didn't go from Luthais, to Jarl Luthais, to King Luthais, for example. I know that we as the player did have the ability to change our name whenever we pleased, but that's not what I'm talking about. I would like it to actually follow a titling system that changes my character's name on the fly--without my input.

Honestly, proper titling based upon your holdings is secondary to me as long as I see my character's name dynamically change. I think that the level of immersion would be much greater for me if it actually changed dynamically.



But now that I've got that out of the way, yeah--I would love to see a proper naming scheme based upon one's actual holdings. A variety of titles certainly adds to the immersion, and there are actually multiple mods that attempted this in Warband, i.e. Floris. I'm pretty sure the names were hard-coded in Floris and didn't dynamically change based upon holdings, but from what I remember the initial titles that they had were based upon the amount of holdings that the characters had.
One of the successor mods for 1257AD (Medieval Conquests or Enhanced Edition) actually has this system. You get an automatic title based on the type of fief you own. Duke if you have a town, Count if you have a castle, Baron if you have a village and Lord if you have no fiefs. Also Prince if you're a son of a King. The system applies to every character in the game and if you lose your fief, your title also changes. Spouses also get a correspondent title i.e the wife of a Duke is a Duchess etc.

It's a very good mechanic and the way it should be in Bannerlord. Unfortunately, the devs have already screwed this possiblity with the clan system.
Long Post - enjoy

Now I don't want to discredit the clan system entirely, as I see lots of potential good, but I agree with what you say in terms of TW changing everything too drastically. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but clans should not be present in a feudal government(aka Vlandia), so it would be nice if it's culture-specific. Battanians and (maybe) Khuzaits get the clan system, but all other factions should function as an empirical or feudal system. Hell, I would be down for an Emperor/Empress takes charge of all walled fiefs, while giving individuals(not clans) governing titles. This goes against TW's vision of having the legion system downplayed, but I thought early in development when we saw ancient roman inspirations, that was what they were going for. They are too far into development to even warrant a change, but this feels like a downgrade to Warband mods like your aforementioned Medieval Conquests. We are also limited by what the factions are called, with no suffix of 'Kingdom' or 'Republic' to differentiate between government system(minus Empire ofc).

For my personal flavor, I would have it like this:

Vlandia/Sturgia/Aserai - Feudal system with different prefixes depending on culture and owned fief/enterprises(refer to OP)

Khuzaits/Battania - Implemented clan system

Empire - Keep the imperial army system(as seen with one of the minor factions), with small numbers but LARGE sized legion armies tactically deployed around the property of the Empire, with maybe one in the heartland. Each legion is led by a general(not a lord) with no land, but he/(she?) has many companions/NPC's. These legions are being funded by the Emperor/Empress on top of their loot from the plunders because she has complete control over all walled fiefs, receiving the majority of the tribute/taxes from the land. Village governorship, however, would be rewarded to retired leaders(representing estates). If the age of x character leading a legion is greater than (let's say 50), the Emperor/Empress gifts him governorship over a village, replacing the army leadership with the oldest NPC in that legion, and adding a new one(RNG?). There will be set governers in most villages, however, with the aging system, this can allow for a constant flow. This would drastically change gameplay, but I see this as a positive. Instead of gaining favor from a dozen different lords from the same faction, I will have to instead appease the royal family. Its a bit rough, but I dislike how all major factions are utilizing personal retinues.

In warband mods, we got to see many crazy war parties, such as special spawns in Pendor, or War parties in TLD. These large special spawns were very limited to what they could do(can't take fiefs), so having that in bannerlord would be crazy gameplay opportunities. Legions will be slow and few, being inefficient with bandit and individual retinue parties. That being said, if they arrive while you are sieging, you are going to be in for a battle. Likewise, if you catch one of these boys overstretching in your territory, the swarm of constant lords(like we saw in the newest gameplay) would be enough to take these lads out. If they campaign with a joint force of two to three combined legions, however... ya. If we want to make it more byzantinesque however, maybe have small patrols(20-60) "border guards" patrol the borders. This is in reference to the byzantine border guards who were deployed in forts along the borders of the byzantine empire.
 

Kribble118

Recruit
WBNWVCWF&SM&B
Best answers
0
i like the idea of titles being added before your name in recognition of what kind of fiefs you hold
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
JustinTime49 said:
[...] Do correct me if I'm wrong, but clans should not be present in a feudal government(aka Vlandia)[...]
It's just one name for an (extended) family, which would be important in all cultures. And they do vary the name, in Vlandia they are called houses.





P.S. And also, the nation most famous for clans, Scotland, certainly continued to have clans after the establishment of feudalism.
 

JustinTime49

Sergeant
Best answers
0
John the Roleplayer said:
JustinTime49 said:
[...] Do correct me if I'm wrong, but clans should not be present in a feudal government(aka Vlandia)[...]
It's just one name for an (extended) family, which would be important in all cultures. And they do vary the name, in Vlandia they are called houses.




P.S. And also, the nation most famous for clans, Scotland, certainly continued to have clans after the establishment of feudalism.
welp seems i'm still ignorant about that being in the game, under the impression that clans or houses in the case of Vlandia only have clan leaders owning the land. I still stand by the rest of what I said since they still all share the same government system(from what it seems).
 

Occyfel

Regular
Best answers
0
I wouldn't even care too much about the requirements for each title, something more than Count, Emir etc would be great