[Poll-debate-suggestion] Horseback combat: Weapon usage & riding skill restrictions

Are you agree about bringing back these kinds of restrictions?


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Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
In this thread I would like to bring to the table for discussion some suggestions that stem from this old comment of mine; restrictions about the use of horseback weapons and restrictions on use by skill.

In Warband you could expect a totally different wielding of the same weapon if your avatar was riding a horse or on foot. For example we had two-handed weapons, such as greatswords, long axes, bardiches, awlpikes...etc... that functioned as two-handed swinging weapons on foot, but if the player decided to take a horse it became a 1h weapon (with a much slower swing/thrust strike). Instead in Bannerlord we see these two-handed swing animations with different weapons implemented in such an unrealistic and shameless way to try to please "the new audience".

In the Bannerlord game test I have simulated this usage restriction by altering the animations and lowering the avatar's riding skill. I assume Taleworlds could implement this in a much more professional way with a few simple lines of code.

Check this out:





I would bring back that to Bannerlord. The moment a player would be playing with a Savage, Fiann, Guard, Menavlion infantry, Berserker ...etc equipped with a 2h weapon and decide to take a horse, their weapon use would be transformed because they would be playing a class role for which it is not intended. In such a situation, these weapons would suffer a detriment in terms of performance, making swings slower (depending of which weapon thrust only) and at 1h.

On the other hand, some of you may remember this:

aLKDy.jpg


Well, I consider that low tiers should not be able to "steal" mounts at all as "it supposed" they have no real ability/skill to do so. Here is an image detailing the distribution of restrictions, imo:

gMBu9.jpg

Conceptualisation - example balance proposal

I know these are both controversial issues and will make many of you (new players) scratch your heads, but in Warband this works; why not in Bannerlord?. Along with the current trends where everything is reduced to the piñata party hard + the absurd additions of the new passive perks (that's my opinion), the M&B spirit/essence is far away to be be rescued.

I setup a poll to measure the general interest.
 

hoonii

Knight
No no no no no no no no we want peasants that were ploughing their farms 2 days ago to be able to swing heavy 2 handed glaives whilst riding a heavy war horse.
 

AJAJP_Juan

Knight at Arms
I never liked two handed weapons back in Warband. It makes no sense that a weapon that requires such physical strength to wield that you need your two arms and extensive training to use, can be used on horseback one handed with a measly 15-35% penalty to both speed and damage. It is even worse with the weapon you choose, as a great axe having all mass in the end, swinging it one handed (horseback or not) will likely end injuring yourself in the wraist or the shoulder.

We also have depictions (spoilers below) of two handed weapons being used, well, two handed. And of course you know of glaive mounted combat, so no need to explain that.

At the right, one knight with an axe breaking a skull
bV-1V.jpg


Later period than Bannerlord's (and Warband's), but still applicable
MpDDa.jpg


Video for funsies of two handed poleaxe on horseback

"But the animation doesnt change as it should, and looks unrealistic". True, and it doesnt feel very good when trying to hit people right next to you while you are mounted and they are not. However, Warband fencing isn't realistic nor looks especially good, but feels good, and IMO that is the correct path, this is a game after all not a HEMA simulator. So I think the changes in your other thread were on point, but I'm afraid I cant support you in this case; while rough, Bannerlord two handed combat is a step in the right direction, just needs to ban certain weapons entirely and refine parameters and swing arcs.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
@AJAJP_Juan You'll love this video then :lol: :iamamoron: .



The only weapon that both in Warband and in my eyes works in Bannerlord is plausible to use through swing (with a lot of nerf as I explained here and here) is the glaive.

 
@Terco_Viejo

weapon restrictions on horseback/changing their animations to slow 1h swings?

sure makes sense you cant use some weapons the same as you can while on foot

not being able to mount a horse bc your premade class selection?

no, one of the few decisions bannerlord made (imo) that i fully agree with is that anyone can use any weapon/mount they find (although there is a speed penalty when mounting a horse if you are not a cavalry class, making it impossible to ever catch other cavalry which is silly if your horse is unarmored and the cavalry you are trying to catch is armored, all horse speed should only be determined by weight and not by some passive bonuses given by class/perks; the same penalty also exists for bows/crossbows where your accuracy is worse then players using the archer class then if your using a bow/crossbow as a non-archer class, this is as wrong as passive abilities now introduced in infantry classes (swing speed bonuses) that penalize non infantry classes (when picking up said infantry's weapon with swing bonuses and not being able to use that weapon effectively due to not having the swing bonus perk) from being able to melee at a fair and equal level)
 
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Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...]

not being able to mount a horse bc your premade class selection?

no, one of the few decisions bannerlord made (imo) that i fully agree with is that anyone can use any weapon/mount they find (although there is a speed penalty when mounting a horse if you are not a cavalry class, making it impossible to ever catch other cavalry which is silly if your cav is unarmored and the cavalry you are trying to catch is armored, all horse speed should only be determined by weight and not by some passive bonuses given by class/perks; the same penalty also exists for bows/crossbows where your accuracy is worse then players using the archer class then if your using a bow/crossbow as a non-archer class, this is as wrong as passive abilities now introduced in infantry classes (swing speed bonuses) that penalize non infantry classes (when picking up said infantry's weapon with swing bonuses and not being able to use that weapon effectively due to not having the swing bonus perk) from being able to melee at a fair and equal level)

Would you give a bicycle without stabilisers wheels to a child who has never ridden? Wouldn't you? is going to die smashing his skull on a kerbstone for sure :iamamoron: . Here it's the same; the red light is "you're too small to ride", the yellow light is "with these training wheels you can only ride these children's bicycles", the green light is "put gas in that motorbike".

As for archers, there will be low tier archers such as archer militia who will automatically be denied any access to mounts. However, an increased aiming time could be introduced for the palatine guard when choosing to steal a horse. The same procedure with the remaining analogous classes.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
The only weapon that both in Warband and in my eyes works in Bannerlord is plausible to use through swing (with a lot of nerf as I explained here and here) is the glaive.
How is glaive mechanically any different from any other 2h weapon, though? I personally find it less realistic that you are able to swing a hefty 2h axe with one hand in warband, you'd just lose it after the first swing unless you have some insane grip strength.
 

Poddicus

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Take lance
Be on foot
Hold left click
Mount horse whilst holding left click
You are now using a lance with 2 hands
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
How is glaive mechanically any different from any other 2h weapon, though? I personally find it less realistic that you are able to swing a hefty 2h axe with one hand in warband, you'd just lose it after the first swing unless you have some insane grip strength.

Well, mechanically different from a 2h sword because of the way you put your hands together on the handle and mechanically different from a 2h polearm because of the mere fact of the distribution of the weapon's own mass. Here the problem is more the biomechanics of the attack itself.

It is entirely plausible to wield a pollaxe or even shoot an English-Welsh war longbow on horseback; however, do not expect the same performance as on foot and even less so in the frenzy of a real battle. On the other hand the glaive with all the bunch of " tweaks " I talked about here (restricted swinging arcs + weapon size reduction) I believe it can have a real practical performance ingame.

Look at these swings:

giphy.gif

The weapon in the gif appears to be something like a Nagamaki, a slightly lighter weapon
than the type of guandao-pudao style glaives that in my eyes would fit both in shape and dimensions for Khuzait.

Practically when releasing swings to the right side, the upper body does not rotate but the left arm maintains a stiffness aligned with the man-horse balance point while the right arm is the one that rotates applying the cut with the weapon from behind to the front. This type of cuts with reduced swing arcs are the ones that by a small modification of the windup animation would be great to be applied; something that I also commented here.

Also consider that the iconography and historical sources that the Khergit-Khuzait faction draws from are of Asian/Oriental origin, making the glaive an exotic weapon both in appearance and use (if we compare them with those of all other factions)... at least in my eyes and it's because of all this together that makes me give it "more plausibility" than other 2h/polearms wielded on horseback.

---
As for the 2h axes, it is basically a restriction to favour "honest uses"; let me explain. "Everybody" knows that the best mounted combat strategy is to throw thrusts using the speed factor that the horse provides and these will always have an optimal performance if done with a spear or a sword (this is a personal appreciation). These restrictions I speak of are simply to remind the player of the ethics of the gameplay, an ethic that was previously applied in Warband in a very successful way imho (the player understood that each weapon had a certain role in the game).

Unfortunately in Bannerlord we have what I call wild piñata party hard, where everyone can get on a horse, steal and make use of different weapons and have the same performances with them regardless of whether you're on foot or mounted... all because it's supposed to be fUn AnD cOoL.
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
@AJAJP_Juan You'll love this video then :lol: :iamamoron: .



The only weapon that both in Warband and in my eyes works in Bannerlord is plausible to use through swing (with a lot of nerf as I explained here and here) is the glaive.

Saw it enjoyed it and i am now fully for the restrictions. Having a little experience with riding a horse myself i can say none of that swingin' business that Bannerlord has to offer is possible while riding on horse back. I fully support your struggle @Terco_Viejo.
 
Restrictions NO.
A key that activates the 1 hand or 2 hands mode yes(that is already in the game).
The one-handed mode should offer more range, slower speed (as you suggested) and a balance (both attack and character) that increases according to the angle of attack (meaning if you attack downwards, to hit foot soldiers, you are less inaccurate because gravity does half the work).
The two-handed mode should be faster and more precise but guarantee less range and the balance of the attack and the character must decrease as the angle increases (since to attack with 2 hands you put yourself in a position of strong imbalance).
What I mean by attack balance: what is at stake and which considers the arc sections of the trajectories of the weapons during the attacks (the one on which the handling acts)
What I mean by character balance: the probability of being thrown off the horse when he is hit by an enemy attack.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Saw it enjoyed it and i am now fully for the restrictions. Having a little experience with riding a horse myself i can say none of that swingin' business that Bannerlord has to offer is possible while riding on horse back. I fully support your struggle @Terco_Viejo.
giphy.gif

Thanks!

"You will win, but you will not convince. You will win because you have more than enough brute force; but you will not convince, because to convince means to persuade. And to persuade you need something you lack: reason and right in the struggle."

Miguel de Unamuno
 

FearSpear

Squire
Would you give a bicycle without stabilisers wheels to a child who has never ridden? Wouldn't you? is going to die smashing his skull on a kerbstone for sure :iamamoron: . Here it's the same; the red light is "you're too small to ride", the yellow light is "with these training wheels you can only ride these children's bicycles", the green light is "put gas in that motorbike".
Horses are a lot harder to ride for the first time than a bicycle
 

hoonii

Knight
Glaives are historically accurate tho to some degree.
I really doubt you would be able to swing a 3.6m long stick(menav) on horseback without any drawbacks though.
 

KSHMR

Sergeant at Arms
How is glaive mechanically any different from any other 2h weapon, though? I personally find it less realistic that you are able to swing a hefty 2h axe with one hand in warband, you'd just lose it after the first swing unless you have some insane grip strength.
We are not here to discuss realism. We are here to discuss what's best for the game, are we not?
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Glaives are historically accurate tho to some degree.
I really doubt you would be able to swing a 3.6m long stick(menav) on horseback without any drawbacks though.

Exactly, I think the Glaive can be the ultimate 2h swing-only weapon with realistic performance while maintaining a differentiating role on horseback. Something along the lines of this or this revamped version just out of the oven in the form of a video test:


If you notice, on horseback the rotation angles and swing arcs are more sharply constrained by applying those tweaks I've already spammed enough about. Imagine for a moment that Taleworlds edits the lateral windup so that the swing is like the one in the gif.

giphy.gif

Also dimensions and restrictions are important:

This two version of glaive that I'm proposing show that Lancer's one (horseback combat) is much shorter than the Khan's guard version (foot combat). As for restrictions, in my opinion being a Khan's guard and you "stole" a horse then you would automatically stop being able to make swings (vertical - lateral - windup if Taleworlds decided to implement it) allowing only 2h upperthrust - below the hip (kontos style).
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
A small bump to boost voting by means of a very interesting video that deals with the issue in question discussed here. Topic connected to this one.

 

ParzivaI

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I guess some people really want to play Warband instead, most of people here are just nostalgic instead of accepting and understanding why some of this changes were made in the first place, most people like them.. all this threads about Warband did it better make no sense to me, everytime I go back to Warband, I just think ... damn this is really clunky, limited and outdated and has several no brain restrictions. (You can't ride on horse back because you don't have skill) really?:roll:
That was one of the main complaints back in the day. Make units slow for the heck of it? 1 minute to lift the great sword and 2 minutes to do a full swing... was that fun? That was the kinda of stuff that bored me about Warband.
Don't get me wrong...I love Warband, played it for hundreds of hours but I appreciate several of the new changes.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I guess some people really want to play Warband instead, most of people here are just nostalgic instead of accepting and understanding why some of this changes were made in the first place, most people like them.. all this threads about Warband did it better make no sense to me, everytime I go back to Warband, I just think ... damn this is really clunky, limited and outdated and has several no brain restrictions. (You can't ride on horse back because you don't have skill) really?:roll:
That was one of the main complaints back in the day. Make units slow for the heck of it? 1 minute to lift the great sword and 2 minutes to do a full swing... was that fun? That was the kinda of stuff that bored me about Warband.
Don't get me wrong...I love Warband, played it for hundreds of hours but I appreciate several of the new changes.

I will reply with this comment by Orion with which I agree 100%:
Orion said: It's almost as if Warband had this exact same problem in the beta, and we got it fixed by raising skill requirements to ride horses, removing bolts/arrows from non-ranged classes between rounds, and adjusting proficiencies so that off-class weapons were not very effective. You don't see people running hybrid loadouts in Warband anymore. Yet here we are, 10 years later, repeating old mistakes. We have skill requirements on horses & ranged weapons in SP, they just need to be enabled for MP and skills for various classes need to be adjusted so that foot troops can't mount (heavy) horses and infantry/cavalry can't pick up bows. June 18, 2020

Well, here we are again... wanting to bring back M&B essences and running away from pseudo fornite-call of duty style wheel reinventions...
It's not nostalgia, it's practicality.
 
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