[POLL] .720 Couching vs .7XX, Good or Bad Stats

[ POLL ].720 Couching, Good, Bad

  • Good, better than before.

    Votes: 51 47.2%
  • Bad, worse than before.

    Votes: 57 52.8%

  • Total voters
    108

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Alec{zacool} said:
You have now crossed the line into, "I have a bigger penis than you so therefore I am cooler and I am better and I do not care what you think because my opinion is the best in the world".

Not only that, but more.

Alec{zacool} said:
You are one of the players that turtle with 2+ shields, right? With the speed reduction with 2+ shields, no wonder you can't manoeuvre away from cavalry.

Yep. To be precise i never use 2 shields. Fail.

Alec{zacool} said:
You have to understand that just because you are too stubborn to use a class/playstyle that is a counter to the other classes/playstyles that win against your current class/playstyle, it doesn't mean that it's OP.

I play different classes, and different builds. Another fail.

Alec{zacool} said:
You seem to imply that I am a "noob" trying to be able to hold onto easy kills via "horse ******ry". As I said before, I am a crossbowman.

No, you are xbow noob that have little knowledge about horse combat and melee against horses.

Alec{zacool} said:
Horses are now too easy to defeat. They are easier than fighting an infantry or an archer/crossbowman. That is what I've been trying to say the entire time.

Have you fought against good horseman this patch ? I would rather fight against 2 infantry/xbowman/archers than two horseman. They are strong. Just require some skill. Also, on foot they also can do good.

Alec{zacool} said:
Horses do require skill, just like any other class. You can't just "Hold W", like many people say all it is, in a gametype other than deathmatch. People like you just don't bother to look behind them for the cavalry which is waiting for them to get engaged in melee.

Right now they require skill, in .711 it was skill less feast. I do good against any foe, and my situational awareness is quite good, so your random accusation is another big failure.

Alec{zacool} said:
Horses before were a support class, not a big fighting class. They were best at assisting infantry whilst they were fighting. E.G. taking out a troop that is ganking, or horse-bumping an enemy in a 1v1.

No, they owned.

Alec{zacool} said:
They are now just free kills.

bull.

Alec{zacool} said:
The U.S. and E.U. players might all agree that they are OP, but the Oceanic gamers suffer from absolutely every nerf that's added.

The game is now only centred around infantry.

A wise veteran said, "Mount&Blade should be renamed. It should now be called Mount&Die."

I rest my case.

I can only say, learn to play.
SockMonkeh said:
AoC said:
You must be complete idiot to not notice it was about .711.

It is serious problem. There should be no 'i win buttons' and no hard counters.

I see you in three current threads complaining about how three different things are over-powered (lancers, horse-archers, and one-handed axes). Have you ever considered that you might be terrible at Warband?

Sure, last time i played i sucked with 46K - 24D with average ping 110. I suck so hard, and i'm terrible at warband.
EDIT: I just ragequitted again with sucky 6K/1D, i suck so hard at warband. :evil:
 
Hohoho the cavalry whine about the infantry the infantry whine about the cavalry the cavalry want to 1 hit everyone the infantry want a fair chance in killing cavalry...... hmm
 
SockMonkeh said:
AoC said:
Sure, last time i played i sucked with 46K - 24D with average ping 110. I suck so hard, and i'm terrible at warband.

That's not even a 2:1 ratio, buddy.

Get better with lag spikes and ping variety 90/160 fighting often against 2/3 opponents (CtF) with teamkilling idiots.
 
DeathsShadow said:
Hohoho the cavalry whine about the infantry the infantry whine about the cavalry the cavalry want to 1 hit everyone the infantry want a fair chance in killing cavalry...... hmm

The entire thing was that infantry had a fair chance before the nerf.

No, you are xbow noob that have little knowledge about horse combat and melee against horses.

For a start, how is using an crossbow noobish? Whenever I can, I pick up a spear and so I win easily against the horsemen.

 
Alec{zacool} said:
DeathsShadow said:
Hohoho the cavalry whine about the infantry the infantry whine about the cavalry the cavalry want to 1 hit everyone the infantry want a fair chance in killing cavalry...... hmm

The entire thing was that infantry had a fair chance before the nerf.

No, you are xbow noob that have little knowledge about horse combat and melee against horses.

For a start, how is using an crossbow noobish? Whenever I can, I pick up a spear and so I win easily against the horsemen.

They didn't have fair chance before the nerf.

Using crossbow is not noobish, it's about you. If you take a spear, you lose xbow or 1h weapon. Horseman can just leave his horse and kill you in melee. He have decent chances here. Or kill you with his spear/other weapon ? Or retreat to aid other teammates ? Horseman have more tactical options and is generally good in melee with bumping then hitting.
 
It seems to me that there seems to be a lot of people ignoring the fact that cavalry players are more than willing to take a nerf. Just not this kind of nerf. Reducing the mobility of a cavalry players main attack is a hell of a nerf. Even before the nerf archers/infantry had no problem removing the horse out from under me, but with a straight charge with *very* tight margins for moving side to side cavalry will have to play the poke game which is ok by infantry players considering its so damn easy to down block/shield or plain outmaneuver a slow moving horse. Hell I prefer cav and i endorse most of the alternate nerfs or different couching styles that have been suggested in other threads. The most telling fact in these threads (at least to me) are the number of people who defend the current nerf without question rather than work with the cav players for something that doesn't feel quite so wonky.

Edit: Also does it strike anyone else as odd when someone says its ok for multiplayer but I don't want this in single player. Doesn't that just mean its ****ed and you don't plan to use it in Multi? Something seems innately wrong with that statement.

tldr version: Cav players; we know its a bit overpowered but this is too much.

Infantry players; so what it doesn't bother us.

Me: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU

 
I almost guarantee you that out of the 39 people who say this couching is better at least 30 of them never touch cav.  The question up top isn't is cav combat better which it is.  It is is couching better.  If you actually play cavalry you have to be honest and say it isn't.
 
Berserker Pride said:
I almost guarantee you that out of the 39 people who say this couching is better at least 30 of them never touch cav.  The question up top isn't is cav combat better which it is.  It is is couching better.  If you actually play cavalry you have to be honest and say it isn't.

As someone who play both cavalry and non-cavalry i know that current is better. Not because current is good or something, just cause .711 was imba.
 
AoC said:
Berserker Pride said:
I almost guarantee you that out of the 39 people who say this couching is better at least 30 of them never touch cav.  The question up top isn't is cav combat better which it is.  It is is couching better.  If you actually play cavalry you have to be honest and say it isn't.

As someone who play both cavalry and non-cavalry i know that current is better. Not because current is good or something, just cause .711 was imba.

Well then AoC What would you say to any of the other couching changes people have suggested? As is I can't say I would be satisfied. And I don't see why any other cav player would be.
 
Kevlar said:
It's better only due to the fact that it now involves more skill then before. Old way of couching required no skill since it involved holding down W and running into people, now you have to somewhat know where you will be heading instead of running around aimlessly searching for kills. This also means more people will either lance thrust or use their swords now which is better since both require a lot more skill then just holding W.
I agree with this.  But I must also say that couching got nerfed a little too much imo.  If the turn limitation was reduced a little more and/or strafing was added in, it would be much better.
 
Horrible change unless you are the kind who just doesn't like horses.

I haven't seen a couch kill since the change in a game yet, its completely impractical and the lance is a wasted spot now. 

It was very easy for an alert player to avoid most couches as it is, now I don't know how someone not AFK could get couched.

There is something wrong with balance when I'd rather be infantry vrs a horse in just about every occasion if I'm just looking for kills. 
 
I meant to add, since couching is only good against people paying no attention, why couch?  Just use your sword on them, its MORE likely to score a hit in case they accidentally move a step, lets you keep a shield out, and normally will be a one hit kill if you are at couching speed.

 
Berserker Pride said:
It took about 2 seconds for the lance to lower.  Hell I could do it in village from the end of an alley to the main road.

Couching was nerfed for a reason.  And the couching was not only changed because infantry complained. 

It was changed because it was boring.  It made all the other ways of mounted combat useless.  You essentially had a permanent shield on one side of your horse with the old couching.  And the lance moved so fast it could flick to the other side in an instant.  I actually hated the hyperactive lance speed the most.  Couching should have the slowest lance speed but it moved faster than when you stab with it.  It artificially made cav stronger than they were.  This lead to horse swordsmen and stabbing becoming underpowered.  Bring couching in line with the other attacks in usefulness and mounted combat becomes more varied.  I prefer .720 horse combat for this reason.  But couching was overnerfed.  It has simply become a convenient way to kill AFK's and complete newbies.

I dislike how unnatural and buggy the fix feels.  A lance doesn't just pop up because you turned more than 5 degrees.  I heard an alternate suggestion before the fix that when you were in couching mode your horse would not turn anymore but would sidestep.  This would get rid of the silly poppy lances while still making couching a straight charge.

EDIT:I hate to critique gypsydevil but I have to question your poll's usefulness.  Every player who dislikes cav will vote that this is better simply because cavalry is weaker.

Your right Berserker, but there is no way to get an unbiased poll on these forums, because the general populace is polarized in favor of their class.  Some infantry will be happy that cav are weaker, some cav will be mad that they can't rack up as many kills,  but you do have some cav users who vote honestly, and some infantry/archers who do the same.

When I right this the poll is 40 votes/40 votes, with a lot of cav users(yourself included) saying that while overall warband gameplay is improved, the nerf went too far and needs to be changed. 

Then you have some xbow users saying that the patch was a big step backward, and warband was better with the old couching method. 

The 50/50 vote is awesome, because it's seems to show some level of truth even with all the hardcore guys who vote just because they hate cav or because their cav guys who miss inflated scores.
 
The only modification needed was to decrease the angle of which you aim your couched lance in relation to your horses running direction, say it was from 10-14 before, it could have been changed to 11-13 instead. To lift your lance as soon as you move is ridicously unlogical and spoils any opportunity to go for another target if you miss the first. So, keep the narrow aiming, remove the lance lifting.
 
I almost always play infantry, one of the reasons being that every time I play as cavalry I can't do anything against enemy infantry that know I'm there. This is also my experience as an infantryman fighting against cavalry. If I see them coming, then it's piss easy to dodge whatever attack they're trying, and almost as easy to score a hit on them - or even easier if you have a polearm. Cavalry are basically the ninjas of the battlefield - deadly only when you don't know they're there. The only dangerous cavalryman is one who bump slashes you repeatedly, which is only really a problem if you're hemmed in against a wall and can't get out of the way as their horse bumps you every half second with the slightest movement. It's not a tactic that promotes a long life for the horse, and it's still fairly ineffective in most situations.

Cavalry really needs an improvement, not further nerfing. The new couched direction change reset makes no sense, and it wasn't even necessary for gameplay purposes - couching was difficult enough against mobile targets before. I'd say the previous aiming system was fine, it felt relatively realistic, even if it was easy to dodge. Perhaps it'd be better if horses were more manoeuvrable at speed and the effective angle of the couched lance was narrowed slightly - couched impacts from the kind of angles you can manage in Warband would probably be rather dangerous for the rider.

The biggest problem I have with cavalry is the normal attacks. It's extremely hard to time lance stabs correctly, to the point where it becomes virtually impossible at speed, particularly against opponents in front of you. It seems very unreliable also, perhaps due to the general problems with thrust detection in Warband; as I've said before, often attacks that are obvious hits on my screen don't register, seemingly due to desynch between the attacker, the server and the opponent. Perhaps it's just me, but I also find it very hard to attack with a sword from horseback. Attacks hardly ever seem to connect. I like the improved flexibility of Warband's horseback slashes, but perhaps the attacks should be more biased towards low angles to help with targeting. It shouldn't be that I'm not accustomed to this flexibility; I'm actually used to having to aim vertically as a rider since I modded M&B to allow looking up and down from horseback (although the AI didn't do it properly), and it wasn't anywhere near as hard with modded old attacks as it is on Warband. I'm not really sure what the problem is, or if there really is one and I just need to learn the timing, but it certainly seems much tougher than it should be.
 
The poll does show that some good has come out of the change.  As I mentioned in the patch notes thread I'm glad Armagan is looking at couching.  I was worried it would be released like .711.  Sword and board cavalry work great to support archers.  I just went 2-1 in battle like that.
 
Not sure why anyone thinks cav was op in last build. Seems to me that if cav was laying the beat down that the losing side would just start to use more polearms (which were...wait for it...in many cases specifically designed to help take down cavalry) and eliminate the advantage of the horses and couched lances. Personally I enjoyed fighting against cavalry before 720 but now it's just an easy kill. To suggest that every troop type should be equally as capable of defeating every other makes there little point in having differences between them at all. Personally I find this a downgrade to the fun of cavalry though I agree it's nice to see some variation in weapons they are using. Either way horses are WAY too easy to kill in almost all cases. That there is no horse barding option has always been strange to me.

Seems that much of this could be resolved by adjusting they way things are priced and how a player gains money in game.

Right now I see little reason to use a lance anymore and I just played a few hours tonight and did a bunch of couched killing. The problem is, unless the opponent is unaware of your attack or so overwhelmed that he can't adjust his path it's next to impossible to run him down with a lance. Sure that's great if your idea of a balanced game is to make one weapon mostly useless, but frankly I see ten times a problem with the two handed weapons being nigh godlike.

I play all troop types by the way, choosing the one I wish based on how the game is going and what I think the team "needs".
 
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